The thing with free speech is that it also allows speech that you may not necessarily agree with. But I'd rather have that, than live in a police state where you can be imprisoned or executed for saying something that offends/criticizes the government or the ruling party etc.
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Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel. 1400+ killed, 2400+ wounded, 240+ abducted. Israel declares war
- Thread starter ADiTAR
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
True. I get what your'e saying.
But to me it gets to a point it's outright hateful and stirs public chaos.
For example, lets say on my property I hung a giant poster saying I hate Jews and Black people. I'm sure cops would come by and take it down. So for people mobbing or doing hate speech in small groups on college campuses, why is that a free pass?
ChuckeRearmed
Member
There is a difference between a speech with which you are not agree with and literally calls for genocide. Like I imagine media and police would be much more active if there was a march with Nazi flags...
Basically they just afraid the escalation of the violence.
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In the USA that would be fine. Now the blacks may come and burn your house down but that's another issue. Town wanted to fine a woman who had Fuck Joe Biden signs up. Protected speech, 1st amendment. The government cannot interfere. It's the bedrock of the US constitution and bill of rights.
VICTORY: On First Amendment grounds, NJ woman’s ‘Fuck Biden’ flags free to fly another day
Andrea Dick’s lawsuit proceeds after defeating township’s motion to dismiss — paving the way toward recovery after being ordered to remove political banners criticizing Joe Biden.
Now where it can get illegal is when you try and incite violence, i.e you lead a group of people and encourage them to commit violence, while being there yourself. They couldn't charge Trump under DC law for the capital building riot/"insurrection" because he was giving a speech 15 minutes walk away from the Capitol building. And he said march down peacefully etc. Now if he was actually in the riot at the capital, egging them on to destruction? Could have been charged.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Thats the part where it's confusing what is a chargeable hate crime and what isnt, but given your post it makes sense.In the USA that would be fine. Now the blacks may come and burn your house down but that's another issue. Town wanted to fine a woman who had Fuck Joe Biden signs up. Protected speech, 1st amendment. The government cannot interfere. It's the bedrock of the US constitution and bill of rights.
VICTORY: On First Amendment grounds, NJ woman’s ‘Fuck Biden’ flags free to fly another day
Andrea Dick’s lawsuit proceeds after defeating township’s motion to dismiss — paving the way toward recovery after being ordered to remove political banners criticizing Joe Biden.www.thefire.org
Now where it can get illegal is when you try and incite violence, i.e you lead a group of people and encourage them to commit violence, while being there yourself. They couldn't charge Trump under DC law for the capital building riot/"insurrection" because he was giving a speech 15 minutes walk away from the Capitol building. And he said march down peacefully etc. Now if he was actually in the riot at the capital, egging them on to destruction? Could have been charged.
Yeah, the message here is that Muslims are too numerous, too able to play the victim, too violent if crossed, and too uniform in their beliefs and able to act in unison for western governments to handle. That these "protests" can happen IN DC and involve illegally entering/occupying/damaging federal buildings AFTER all the theater around Jan 6th, tells you all you need to know. The gov will crack down on 200 guys operating as a fringe movement, but are too afraid to antagonize 200 THOUSAND folks with a history of violence.
Some countries have restrictions on displaying Nazi flags/symbols:
Bans on Nazi symbols - Wikipedia
Alebrije
Member
Well not just western , they even are btoken inside , I am talking about those Ortodox groups that are pro Palestine
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Thaedolus
Member
lmfao I'm not good enough with the AI prompts to get this outputWell not just western , they even are btoken inside , I am talking about those Ortodox groups that are pro Palestine
Alebrije
Member
LordOfChaos
Member
It sounds like Modi is seeding the correct phrasing to start the process of designating Hamas as a terrorist group. First by calling it an Israel-Hamas conflict and drawing the difference between Hamas and all Palestinians, and second by calling out terrorist acts in the same breath.
Not all Orthodox Jews, there are a very small minority in them called Neturey Karta (נטולי קרתא), which believe we can only build an Israeli state when the Messiah arrives. Some of them live in Iran.
Again, small minority of idiots.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
This may be controversial, but maybe mass immigration wasn't the best idea. These people don't share my values and I doubt they share the same values as a majority of the British people.
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
Are you trying to suggest that importing people who believe that you don’t have the right to exist was a mistake? How dare you?
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I don't know what going on here in the US
Something I "learned" over the weekend while leaving a friends house in Louisville KY my wife and I stopped for gas and had 2 younger black males approach us around 11:00 at night and tell me I was not allowed to wear the color black as it represents freedom and "old white men" can't wear that color.
So I removed my black jacket that revealed my 1911 .45 in my shoulder holster and they kept walking so I would assume my black shirt I was also wearing become acceptable for me to wear
Happosai
Hold onto your panties
Correct, first amendment if you look at it expanded definitely outlines freedom of expression. Speech is one small facet of the 1st. That doesn't mean that if your expression leads to promoting terrorism, hate, mayhem or anything particularly illegal that this will not lead a step further toward arrests, public humiliation, loss of employment or other such consequences. Which aren't consequences of practicing the 1st. They're consequences of abusing the first and taking (in your example speech) into things such as: physical violence, defamatory hate speech and all out criminal behavior. History shows us ugly examples of those who've abused the 1st. Look at the KKK. They too publicly marched for the massacre of anyone anyone who wasn't 'Anglo-Saxon', eliminations of certain groups (Jews & blacks in particular in the American South). Did their actions bring forth consequence? Yes. Because what they did was beyond immoral, unethical and hatred. They overstepped and many were (still are) arrested. Some put on FBI watchlists as well.
A woman running a profane and hate filled flag up about Biden is not exception either. You can disagree with a president but that's just stupid. Not saying she'd be arrested but, she's certainly lost any respect or dignity from her town & country rightfully so (if she ever had dignity or respect to begin with).
Nazis felt a certain freedom of expression prior to the start of WWll and right at the beginning by spreading anti-Jewish propaganda. They were protected for a time...but the consequences came and damage was done with a mark which outlives them.
A little history will show you that the 1st wasn't meant with our modern mindset of 'uh oh, don't suppress or we're police state!' Sounds a bit like conspiracy extreme in that type of jargon. The whole police state thing is just conspiracy crap (talking about in the U.S.). The 1st when amended was done so that it would be exercised responsibly, civilly and respectful of others' expression. Not to tramp or intrude over others or build frontiers. Then again, that context doesn't seem to matter to pro-Palestine / anti-Semite protesters who've already shown in certain places, they're doing so to support terrorism. Terrorism isn't protected under any 'real' law.
This stretches back prior to the events of the 7th of October. A very, very small minority of black Americans would say or find anyone wearing a black shirt intimidating. Like how young we talking (about the 2 guys)? If they're students, it'd not be a far stretch to say they may be getting brainwashed by some of the black racist campus groups like BLM. I grew up with many blacks, black is my favorite color (so I have a lot of black clothing) and never heard anyone complain. Never saw people for colors and I married a woman with darker skin too. She's working in the office behind mine. I could ask her how she feels about me wearing black? She's going to laugh if I say 'it's a freedom color.' You'll find ignorant people everywhere. You'll find many black American scholars in local Louisville universities. I'm sure if you share that story with them (minus the part of exposing your .45); they'll laugh it off.
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
They were likely late teens/early twenties and black is far and away my favorite color as well for my clothing
Its by far the first time I have ever heard of anything like that and honestly I think they were either just trying to show dominance over the "old white man" or possibly even looking for a victim seeing an old white dude getting out of a fairly nice vehicle
Hate speech is protected speech in the USA.
"Hate Speech
There is no legal definition of "hate speech" under U.S. law, just as there is no legal definition for evil ideas, rudeness, unpatriotic speech, or any other kind of speech that people might condemn. Generally, however, hate speech is any form of expression through which speakers intend to vilify, humiliate, or incite hatred against a group or a class of persons on the basis of race, religion, skin color sexual identity, gender identity, ethnicity, disability, or national origin. 1
In the United States, hate speech is protected by the First Amendment. Courts extend this protection on the grounds that the First Amendment requires the government to strictly protect robust debate on matters of public concern even when such debate devolves into distasteful, offensive, or hateful speech that causes others to feel grief, anger, or fear. (The Supreme Court's decision in Snyder v. Phelps provides an example of this legal reasoning.) Under current First Amendment jurisprudence, hate speech can only be criminalized when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group."
Hate Speech and Hate Crime
Hate speech is any form of expression through which speakers intend to vilify, humiliate, or incite hatred against a group or a class of persons on the basis of race, religion, skin color, sexual identity, gender identity, ethnicity, disability, or national origin. Hate crimes are overt acts...
I don't think there was ANY "college intellectuallism" going on, most likely just 2 punk ass kids used to seeing how much they can bully and intimidate folks they know are very unlikely to resist, either through inability, risk of backlash, or fear. They probably do it 20 times a day and 17 of the 20 times they see sheepish compliance, 2 times they get a little pushback and it may or may not devolve into some yelling and increased cussing and dominance displays, and only 1 of the 20, if that, is a person who can aggressively rebuff them. Problem is that with enough positive reinforcement they will eventually progress from demanding a black article of clothing being removed to physically ripping it off and injuring someone.
It's juvenile delinquent behavior but if left unchecked it can easily move towards assault. It shouldn't be tolerated.
Happosai
Hold onto your panties
Hard to say. I've talked with many black youth and the topic of race (which seldom came up in my small Illinois town) was one asked about historically. Most didn't feel there was any big inequality issue. This was like 15-years ago though before diversity movements were forcing everyone to focus on their skin color or to feel like they were oppressed in the 21st-century. It was easy to mentor youth without making everything a game of race but also to discuss history without omitting what was wrong. Seems like a different time but many young blacks in the States today have chosen to opt out of the victim groups. If it wasn't nearly midnight, probably not the time to sit down and chat ethics though. Not everyone is open to talk either. Just saying though, go to the old folks like us (white or black) and none of us are looking at colors anymore. I guess myself and many others are just too old to chat about how we look different outwardly. I was raised in an area where different races and ethnic backgrounds were together. That's why it's hard for me to pay mind to the very few who are still focused on race and all that.
OP A ADiTAR shed light that many who are standing behind the pro-Palestine of this war think it's a dark vs. light skinned issue. It's not. Religious groups are toying with people to think that but, it's mostly a war which rests upon religion that seeks for the elimination of Israel and all Jews. They're distracting people from the true evil.
See, that bolded part is where these current "protests" are crossing the line. This isn't some politician mouthing off about "deplorables" or whatever, its a MOB OF ANGRY PEOPLE being whipped up against a very specific group. It leads to property damage, harassment, and assault.Hate speech is protected speech in the USA.
"Hate Speech
There is no legal definition of "hate speech" under U.S. law, just as there is no legal definition for evil ideas, rudeness, unpatriotic speech, or any other kind of speech that people might condemn. Generally, however, hate speech is any form of expression through which speakers intend to vilify, humiliate, or incite hatred against a group or a class of persons on the basis of race, religion, skin color sexual identity, gender identity, ethnicity, disability, or national origin. 1
In the United States, hate speech is protected by the First Amendment. Courts extend this protection on the grounds that the First Amendment requires the government to strictly protect robust debate on matters of public concern even when such debate devolves into distasteful, offensive, or hateful speech that causes others to feel grief, anger, or fear. (The Supreme Court's decision in Snyder v. Phelps provides an example of this legal reasoning.) Under current First Amendment jurisprudence, hate speech can only be criminalized when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group."
Hate Speech and Hate Crime
Hate speech is any form of expression through which speakers intend to vilify, humiliate, or incite hatred against a group or a class of persons on the basis of race, religion, skin color, sexual identity, gender identity, ethnicity, disability, or national origin. Hate crimes are overt acts...www.ala.org
Personally, if I were in charge, I'd just give every Jew carte blanche to carry whatever weapons they want and respond to intimidation, hate speech, and assault with no fear of government reprisal. The rabble rousers will quickly be eliminated and the 95% of the "go along so long as it's fun for me" crowd will suddenly find some reason to be elsewhere when a couple of them are bleeding on the ground. This kind of stuff has to grow, like a fungus, in a bed of rot and filth. Wash it out right away and it tends not to spread.
Happosai
Hold onto your panties
You know very well what I wrote was regarding those which drift their expression to an extreme of hate speech (e.g. -- riots and oversteps the 'just protestin' part of the 1st). I was talking specifically about how if your freedom of expression stretches into hate speech or discrimination (or worse); there can/will be consequences which are not related to 'but, but...muh rights.' I'll bold that last part which I highlighted several times and add that hate crime (which is where we're seeing these pro-Palestine / pro-Hamas &/or anti-Semitic rallies which stretch from hate/anger into rioting or other physical hate crime) IS punishable.Hate speech is protected speech in the USA.
"Hate Speech
There is no legal definition of "hate speech" under U.S. law, just as there is no legal definition for evil ideas, rudeness, unpatriotic speech, or any other kind of speech that people might condemn. Generally, however, hate speech is any form of expression through which speakers intend to vilify, humiliate, or incite hatred against a group or a class of persons on the basis of race, religion, skin color sexual identity, gender identity, ethnicity, disability, or national origin. 1
In the United States, hate speech is protected by the First Amendment. Courts extend this protection on the grounds that the First Amendment requires the government to strictly protect robust debate on matters of public concern even when such debate devolves into distasteful, offensive, or hateful speech that causes others to feel grief, anger, or fear. (The Supreme Court's decision in Snyder v. Phelps provides an example of this legal reasoning.) Under current First Amendment jurisprudence, hate speech can only be criminalized when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group."
Hate Speech and Hate Crime
Hate speech is any form of expression through which speakers intend to vilify, humiliate, or incite hatred against a group or a class of persons on the basis of race, religion, skin color, sexual identity, gender identity, ethnicity, disability, or national origin. Hate crimes are overt acts...
Laws and Policies
Learn about the laws and statutes for federal and state hate crimes. Find out which states have hate crime data collection regulations and hate crime laws.
Even you picking up a spray paint can to vandalize a McDonald's says you've overstepped and if I were in authority; you'd be read your rights, cuffed and we're off to the paddy wagon. Keep toting that 'but muh 1st' to go into apologetics on extremists and see where it gets you.
It think that's what he was pointing out the same. Surprised him if he's never experienced this before and it's never fun having someone confront you that late for something like a black shirt.
It's juvenile delinquent behavior too for sure. My anecdote was that I didn't see much of this growing up as there weren't so many divisive groups around and older folks (like myself) just aren't going to feed into that. If someone thinks you're racist for wearing a black shirt. They'd probably say the same if you were wearing a white shirt at night too. Couple dumb kids who don't speak for blacks, just for themselves.
Sure we see actual hate crimes a bunch, like the NYC subway:You know very well what I wrote was regarding those which drift their expression to an extreme of hate speech (e.g. -- riots and oversteps the 'just protestin' part of the 1st). I was talking specifically about how if your freedom of expression stretches into hate speech or discrimination (or worse); there can/will be consequences which are not related to 'but, but...muh rights.' I'll bold that last part which I highlighted several times and add that hate crime (which is where we're seeing these pro-Palestine / pro-Hamas &/or anti-Semitic rallies which stretch from hate/anger into rioting or other physical hate crime) IS punishable.
Laws and Policies
Learn about the laws and statutes for federal and state hate crimes. Find out which states have hate crime data collection regulations and hate crime laws.www.justice.gov
Even you picking up a spray paint can to vandalize a McDonald's says you've overstepped and if I were in authority; you'd be read your rights, cuffed and we're off to the paddy wagon. Keep toting that 'but muh 1st' to go into apologetics on extremists and see where it gets you.
It think that's what he was pointing out the same. Surprised him if he's never experienced this before and it's never fun having someone confront you that late for something like a black shirt.
It's juvenile delinquent behavior too for sure. My anecdote was that I didn't see much of this growing up as there weren't so many divisive groups around and older folks (like myself) just aren't going to feed into that. If someone thinks you're racist for wearing a black shirt. They'd probably say the same if you were wearing a white shirt at night too. Couple dumb kids who don't speak for blacks, just for themselves.
Man attacks woman in possible antisemitic attack inside Manhattan train station: police
According to authorities, when the victim asked the attacker why he punched her, he responded, because "you are Jewish" before fleeing the scene.
abc7ny.com
If you spray paint a mcdonalds that's criminal damage. Who is claiming that's a first amendment or free speech right?Sadly the Soros funded district attorneys don't do jack Diddley.
When free speech moves from the rhetorical into actual criminal acts, then by all means put the full force of the law against them.
tommib
Member
It’s Owen Jones.
cormack12
Gold Member
Is that a joke or legit?
tommib
Member
cormack12
Gold Member
What an evil little, fly attracting turd.
tommib
Member
If you read all the entries it’s real vile antisemitic editing and commentary. Guy is gross.
As a gay man, I’m sorry for Owen Jones, world. We don’t all hate the Jews.
You single?
Happosai
Hold onto your panties
Better. Everyone is responsible for how they act. On the same token, they're response for how they react. If reaction means citing the 1st for hate speech or extremism; then it's less-than 2-steps from acting out your expression. Which by acting out your freedom of speech or expression when it's in violence, retribution or in plain physical chaos; the 1st is overruled because you've just stepped into crime because you felt your speech/expression would protect you.Sure we see actual hate crimes a bunch, like the NYC subway:
Man attacks woman in possible antisemitic attack inside Manhattan train station: police
According to authorities, when the victim asked the attacker why he punched her, he responded, because "you are Jewish" before fleeing the scene.
If you spray paint a mcdonalds that's criminal damage. Who is claiming that's a first amendment or free speech right?Sadly the Soros funded district attorneys don't do jack Diddley.
When free speech moves from the rhetorical into actual criminal acts, then by all means put the full force of the law against them.
Not interested in Soros conspiracies either for the derail. Billionaires are going to do whatever, just trying to stick to topic and no he doesn't control the national D.A.
Whereas hate speech is legal. Is it therefore, acceptable? That's the question people should have natural distinction between and no one should be supporting 'the right' for hate speech. Not just a matter of: people are going to be people. Enabling such will override the 1st. That's inevitable and we're seeing just that. Solution (since I don't like holding patterns over problems): Show people the facts, let them know there are consequences and if they then want to pick up signs to rally (or riot); they were warned.
Someone ought to be checking to see if we're getting Wiki rewrites on the history of Israel too or certain events which lead to anti-Semitism in WWll.
DeaDPo0L84
Member
People in power who hate America and all its fundemental values are doing absolutely everything they can to change it without thinking about any potential consequences.
tommib
Member
Married.
LordOfChaos
Member
Total surveillance and police state in China. Very very little information leaks out. Dissent is crushed ruthlessly.
It's simple. In the US the right to free speech, free association, free expression is guaranteed. In many other countries, you may get put in prison or killed for speaking your mind. Maybe they lock your family up as well, "just in case". What we see now is the ugly side of the equation, speech which many find abhorrent and hateful. People in the USA are free to say it. And then maybe they can be doxxed like the truck with video panels going around shaming the college students who signed a letter supporting Hamas crimes etc or shamed for their neighbors etc.
LordOfChaos
Member
Ok you clearly don't live in the US because there's large sections of the country that would support the woman and her "profane" signs. For example, upstate NY is overwhelmingly supportive of Trump. But the millions of Democrat voters in NYC means it's always a sure thing that the reps for the house and Senate are democrats.
Pigenator
Member
I was hoping it's an Onion article for a sec. SighWell, at least Iran was just appointed the head of the UN human rights council committee so everything is going to be fine...
/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/DCG2C3RR6RJDZAYK667DGV5HCE.jpg)
Iran's appointment to chair UN rights meeting draws condemnation
The United States and rights groups complained on Thursday that it was "insulting" to allow Iran's envoy to chair a U.N. human rights council meeting in Geneva, citing violations by Iranian authorities, especially those against women.www.reuters.com
Happosai
Hold onto your panties
Yeah, that's sorta the TL;DR 2 posts back. You can have your free speech (expression). When it drifts into hate speech there can/will be consequence. That truck that doxxed students likely resulted in some losing scholarships, internships, jobs and so on. Abusing a right or amendment doesn't give one immunity to reciprocation of their 'kind expression' in a alternate, yet more civil way.
If confirmed, this would certainly say a lot about what those poor oppressed were doing. IDF is really helping bring all of this into the light. Center for human shields, if confirmed.
No I don't live in the U.S. Moved abroad several years ago. I'm an American citizen and born/raised in the Midwest. I lived near some small hick villages which put out certain signs which were just small loons. If they put a flag up in one of those backwater villages too, yeah...majority of residents probably would support it. Step it up though into a larger town or city and make it big enough to get media attention. Okay. If the town supports it but news goes national and calls her out on being a clown; that'll look great when applying for a job or once polls open for the minority who doesn't side with her. Again, free to do what you want but not immune to consequence. Don't try twisting that to an extreme here either. Consequence in the States isn't always locking you up or just forbidding freedom of expression.
Free speech is great as long as the people listening have commonsense and a bit of discernment
Happosai
Hold onto your panties
"We are heartbroken to share that 20-year-old Israeli-American police officer Sgt. Elisheva Rose Ida Lubin, who was critically wounded in a stabbing terror attack near Jerusalem’s Old City this morning (November 6), has succumbed to her wounds. The terrorist is a 16-year-old from Isawiya - a Palestinian neighborhood in East Jerusalem.
Our hearts go out to Elisheva's loved ones in the wake of this tragedy. May her memory forever be a blessing."
Originally posted a short time ago today by StandWithUs.
Insane Metal
Member
What the fuck
Salty Hippo
Member
This is why I think the only chance for the west is to at some point fight fire with fire and preach back at these people exactly what they preach at you. Meaning a full on self-defense "islamophobia" mentality from the slice of the population that are not terrorist apologists. The end of the 1st amendment. Outlawing and treating islam like the death cult it is. Mass deportations for immigrants. Arrests with severe sentences for locals. Or something worse if any of these lunatics force your hand. Anything less and westerners will still not be understanding what is at stake here.
At the risk of repeating myself, I love freedom of speech as much as anyone and I think it works when all you have to contain are small groups of crazy people who are not hell bent in multiplying by the millions in foreign societies with the objective of imposing a cultural take over from within on the rest of the population. Jihadists are clearly different and our current laws are not fit to deal with them.
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Thaedolus
Member
Well, ya know, might be the “final” solution. Not sure of anyone has proposed such an idea before.
Wildebeest
Member
Tactical pause, what is that? Whenever I pressed pause in a Total War multiplayer game, it did nothing.
Happosai
Hold onto your panties
Western nations are more than waste deep in this. You do know what the almost immediate retaliation would be and collateral result if this were even insinuated. Most would like this but we've let the idea of Sharia bake way too long into Western society and this is behind a religion that marks infidels for execute at the snap of a finger. Look at London, England. Largest city in England and they cannot control this.
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