ChuckeRearmed
Member
I would say rather than the world unrest, I would just the average movement backwards, restoration of national armies, decline in education (already happening) and overall the fall of level of living.
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Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel. 1400+ killed, 2400+ wounded, 240+ abducted. Israel declares war
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That might cause it. Who knows. We live in strange times, very polarized. And again I blame weak leadership.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
So all 2 million, half of which are kids under 18... Did everything you just described?
That thinking is how we got jihadists to attack us on 9/11. That thinking is simplistic and hateful. So by that measure, all Americans are complicit in the atrocity of the Iraq War because we voted Bush into office... We're complicit because we were complacent in Iraq being invaded in the first place and creating jihadists there where there was none BEFORE the invasion.... Right? Your logic isn't sound. Do you know how many times OUR military kills Innocents... Because of bad Intel? Or even on purpose because of soldiers on deployment with massive PTSD? Our soldiers have raped Innocents too ... And almost never held accountable. Is that indicative of ALL Americans? Because once Afghanistan was invaded, our people had a HUGE spike in violence against American Muslims or anyone they PERCEIVED as Muslims, including Sikhs ...
I just don't want fear and paranoia to grip people's hearts like it did so many of us after 9/11. But don't believe the evidence I presented... It's easier to hate.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
Leadership is a reflection of the society. Some singular people are special cases, but by and large - the cabinets represent the people.
But anyway, Israel should finish off Hamas and - as there is an opportunity now - eradicate Hezbollah too. It is time to clean up this mess.
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I never said did. I said complacent. Maybe not always by choice, but you can look online and see how kids in Gaza reenact with guns killings of Jews. How they want to be martyrs like their family members etc. I say the majority because yes, it's the majority.
Eh.. what exactly did the US do that caused 9/11? What formed those jihadists? the thinking? Islamophobia? they were butt hurt of the thinking they may act on what it is to do Jihad? do you know what jihad is? means?
There many voices in the US who didn't support the war, they made their voices heard. Tell me, where are the Gazans who don't support Hamas? What if I tell you that even Mahmoud Abbas the head of the PLO has condemned both sides of killing of civilians after the massacre of 10/7, why's that? why not say this is not our way, why not condemn that atrocity by itself and distance himself from Hamas?
If you think there were no Jihadist before the invasion of Iraq, then you should read more about the subject because you're wrong. Bombings were happening before.
Israelis are not paranoid most are actually disillusioned by 10/7. The people who lived in the Kibutzim next to Gaza were peaceful people, they were the left of Israel, they believed in coexistence. So much so that they knew the people who came to kill them because they worked for them. Some took cancer patients to treatments in Israeli hospitals.
The people in the NOVA festival came to dance for peace, they were all on the left scale and hoped this conflict would end. I'm sure they changed their minds when the paraglider landed with an array of bullets.
Israelis kept moving to the right, after time and again Palestinians have shown they don't want peace. They were given time and again chances and said no. And when Israel left Gaza for its own in 2005 they chose Hamas to lead them, they burnt down huge fertile lands and plantations left healthy by Israel so that they can sustain themselves, and now they live a shitty living.
Israel is not gripped with hate, it's gripped with determination. Hamas must be wiped out, and unfortunately war isn't pretty, it's going to require a lot of Israeli deaths but more Palestinians deaths since they don't have an army. However, they chose Hamas as their leaders, they cheered as Hamas was carrying bodies and hostages on 10/7, and they started a war. A war that Israel didn't want, but now we must finish it.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
We have an evidence of people living in Gaza happily sacrificing their children in the name of hatred and god, brainwashing children at schools, we have tons of videos where parents were inciting their small children to attack Israeli soldiers. Where were the protests in Gaza asking Hamas about money, used to build rocket launchers from pipes? Where were those voices asking Hamas to stop attacking Israel? Even Israel people were protesting against the government asking to help Gaza, yet where are all those people in Gaza asking Hamas to stop launching rockets at Israel?
Even now we have some Israeli voices (and some jews) asking Israeli government to stop (no idea why though), yet where are those voices in other arabic countries asking Hamas to stop?
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The difference between the two sides is that I truly believe that if Gaza and Palestinians genuinely wanted to live in peace and coexist with Israel the vast majority of Israelis would fully accept and support it. There are outliers but they would never be taken seriously for wanting war with a peaceful neighbor. On the other side the outliers are the ones who want peace.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Like I said .. I presented evidence and those who quoted me are actively choosing to ignore it.
All Palestinians should be die... The babies, the kids, the adults, the elderly ... Because they didn't stand up to the same people who OPPRESSED them and threatened them with reprisals if they tried to say anything other than "We love Hamas"...
Sure, I'm positive there are Palestinians who have ill feelings for Israel and her people... But I'm also positive most don't want constant war nor Hamas gestapo in charge...
And stop bringing up the 2006 election... Because they haven't had an election since then. If they had a sensible government, they would have actually had an actual election... And speaking of which, it wasn't even a large portion of the people who voted in that 2006 election...
All Palestinians should be die... The babies, the kids, the adults, the elderly ... Because they didn't stand up to the same people who OPPRESSED them and threatened them with reprisals if they tried to say anything other than "We love Hamas"...
Sure, I'm positive there are Palestinians who have ill feelings for Israel and her people... But I'm also positive most don't want constant war nor Hamas gestapo in charge...
And stop bringing up the 2006 election... Because they haven't had an election since then. If they had a sensible government, they would have actually had an actual election... And speaking of which, it wasn't even a large portion of the people who voted in that 2006 election...
FatallyYours
Member
Oh come off it...
There have been plenty of civilian uprisings in the last 100 years that have led to change
If people want change, real change, they will fight for it. Making excuses up like having reprisals isn't good enough, it hasn't stopped millions of other teenagers and women standing up for their beliefs has it?
If they wanted an election, they could get one if they were brave enough to get one
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Ok. I'm done. Sorry.
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Might have missed the evidence, but I have lots of evidence including a recent survey that shows that 3/4 Palestinians support the massacre.
Most people don't want all Palestinians to die. But people do rebel even when it's against all odds, especially if their lives are already forfeit. There were some small rebellions in Gaza btw, but too small to really count.
Bringing the 2006 is valid. They chose Hamas after Hamas literally told them what they want to do. They knew the PLO was the more moderate and still elected Hamas. The amount of people voting doesn't really matter, if you didn't vote you chose complacency. After the 2006 elections, Hamas killed all Fatah officials.
I'll add that like many progressives, you seem to have little regard to people's agency.
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FunkMiller
Gold Member
I'll just butt in here to say that you're not taking the biggest element into account over how the Palestinian people feel:
Religion.
I entirely agree that the Palestinian people as a whole are probably as sick of Hamas as the rest of us. But that doesn't mean they don't want them to destroy anything that doesn't spread the cause of Islam.
You're dealing with millions of completely irrational people. People who actively believe that they are god's chosen, and everybody else isn't. They think their cause is just, because their book tells them it is.
...and yes, this can be just as easily applied to people in any other religion.
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efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
We (Israelis) are going to have to live side by side with Palestinians whether we like it or not. Demonizing them does not help us.
The simple truth is this: within Gaza and the West Bank, some are religious fanatics, some are opportunists, some are pragmatists, and some just want to live a reasonably normal life.
The only way to move forward is by learning to distinguish between them. If we wish to raise the percentage of pragmatists and optimists in their population, we need to start by identifying opportunities for growth rather than focusing exclusively on destruction. Hamas undoubtedly must be removed from power, but simultaneously new and constructive leadership must be instituted or there will remain a dangerous vacuum.
One possibility I've been considering lately is incentivizing successful Palestinians from the west to return to the West Bank and Gaza and help build businesses, govern cities etc. People who speak the language and have cultural and familial ties to the population, but also bring with them a western influence from their years living in democracies.
This is sort of superficially similar to what the Romans did with Israel in the first century BC, by instituting Herod (a man of local ancestry, who's family had converted to Judaism, but still deeply familiar with Roman values and loyal to Rome) as king.
The simple truth is this: within Gaza and the West Bank, some are religious fanatics, some are opportunists, some are pragmatists, and some just want to live a reasonably normal life.
The only way to move forward is by learning to distinguish between them. If we wish to raise the percentage of pragmatists and optimists in their population, we need to start by identifying opportunities for growth rather than focusing exclusively on destruction. Hamas undoubtedly must be removed from power, but simultaneously new and constructive leadership must be instituted or there will remain a dangerous vacuum.
One possibility I've been considering lately is incentivizing successful Palestinians from the west to return to the West Bank and Gaza and help build businesses, govern cities etc. People who speak the language and have cultural and familial ties to the population, but also bring with them a western influence from their years living in democracies.
This is sort of superficially similar to what the Romans did with Israel in the first century BC, by instituting Herod (a man of local ancestry, who's family had converted to Judaism, but still deeply familiar with Roman values and loyal to Rome) as king.
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ChuckeRearmed
Member
The main issue right now - and I stated some time ago - dealing with Gaza took too much time and now anti-Israel narratives are gaining traction more and more across the world. If ICJ rules out against Israel (and it is highly likely to happen) within even supporting states (like Israel) there will be a split regarding Israel support. Because there are too many people who believe in UN and ICJ fairness, despite it not being true.
I personally have no idea what to do with Palestinians but Israel literally has a bunch of fanatics beside the corner trying to kill them with every opportunity.
Before invasion you literally had palestinians working at factories in Israel no? I believe there was one such businessman who employed them and then his daughter was killed or something.
Except from what we see on the west, even those who moved to western world or lived their for years shared the same backwards beliefs.
I personally have no idea what to do with Palestinians but Israel literally has a bunch of fanatics beside the corner trying to kill them with every opportunity.
The difference is that with Roman Empire, nobody asked Roman Empire to pay for that. But now countries across the world will ask Israel to be pay for Gaza, to pay some reparations or whatever and to be held responsibility for people dying there. If Israel "loses" here - I would say it is not going to be great for them at all as Hamas and palestinians will be treated like victors and losers pay for everything.
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BlackTron
Member
Calling for the death of babies is what makes Hamas and Palestinian adults look like fucking idiots worth wiping from the earth, you fucking idiot.
edit: wait maybe you were paraphrasing others and not suggesting this? Use quotation marks or something man. JFC
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ChuckeRearmed
Member
I am not that positive. At least there is no indication of that at all. Houthi's is a prime example of that.
My problem with twitter evidence like this is I can probably ask chatgpt to come up with something like that and 10 minutes later I too now have a stack of documents to post.
This is what happens when trust in institutions is totally eroded. I can't believe anything now, whether from (some of) the media, independent "journalists", an actual government agency, or from the lips of the Pope himself.
It seems sorta likely considering the amounts of money Qatar has funneled into the US, and the way NYT has covered 10/7.
Some people also didn't believe a certain laptop story.
zenspider
Member
Just from other conversations about the young people my friend works with (healthcare), they’re never wrong about anything, even when they clearly are and are putting patients or co-workers at risk, and they will make subtle claims of racism or sexism to explain why they are being criticized. Maybe they feel guilty about their incompetence deep down — obviously nothing to do with their race but from their inexperience and striking amount of overconfidence — but I think to feel guilty, you have to feel you did something wrong, and your efforts would be to change yourself, not to try and fashion an alternative reality where you are no longer wrong.
zenspider
Member
What evidence are you talking about? I can’t seem to find it up-thread.
I agree with you that we have a lot of ingredients for the post-911 Islamic Panic here in the US, but I honestly don’t see anyone in the kitchen cooking it.
In my workplace I have twenty-year-old suburban girls talking about “Zionism”, Israel using AI deepfakes, that our media is lying, that more people died in Gaza in one month than during the entirety in World War II … only a month ago they were talking about their True Crime podcasts and bitching about their boyfriends and that conspiracy shit was on jihadi bot twitter accounts.
For context, it’s the first time I ever heard anybody say the word Zionist IRL, and before that I’ve only seen the word in propaganda from a century ago and on more ‘spirited’ conspiracy websites.
If anything, I’d be concerned about an entire generation becoming casually and comfortably Jew haters, where only Jews who don’t support the state of Israel are “the good ones”.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
All I know living in Toronto GTA is that the best way for people to get along no matter what they look like and where they come from (Toronto metro area is one of the most diverse cities on Earth) is still simply get people focused on school, careers and have a government that supports it. But also people who arent dumbasses. You need people to also be ambitious and do something productive in life.
This entire metro area has shitloads of different people and some ethnicities skew to certain parts of town. Thats ok. A heavy ethnic neghbourhood will have as much foreign language signs than English. Thats ok. In the burbs you got tons of mosques opening up and a million kebob and shwarma places. Thats ok.
Despite all this, even though there's lots of people from different backgrounds and religions, people get a long as whole because their focus is on trying to live a better life. As you said, grow and not destroy.
And definitely do not put extreme religious views as priority number one. Do that shit at home or in a church or mosque. And dont bandy around endless mobs and flag burning pissing each other off.
IMO, I think living in a high cost of living city works wonders in a different kind of way. People might not like high prices, but what it does is it keeps people focused on getting a job and not doing anything stupid because there's little room for screwing up or sitting at home all day hating. First prioroty to pay for all this shit is go to school, get a job and get up in the morning so you can make cash and pay bills. And after work is done, eat dinner, chill out and go to bed.
When you're busy with career and finances, you got no time for 24/7 religious lectures and mobbing.
If either side.... people or government (or both).... dont give a shit. That city or country will never prosper.
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LegendOfKage
Member
If you don't value keeping the peace at your workplace, you should ask them this question:
Each of these places are filled with the decedents of colonists who kicked out or brutally murdered the indigenous population. But Israel is different, because Jews are part of the indigenous population.
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tommib
Member
UK officials probe Iran generals' antisemitic talks to students
A watchdog is investigating videos of online speeches urging students to join an "apocalyptic war".
www.bbc.com
Eye opening article. No wonder we have so many students calling for the genocide of Jews in the streets of London and elsewhere.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
Another thing would be a joined curriculum between Palestine and Israel, also making the Palestinians aware of the Holocaust (in Japan and Germany after the war the Allied forces forced people to watch movies of Nazi / Japanese atrocities).
MisterFalcon
Member
Schools in Europe with large minority populations have been trying this for a long time but it usually ends in the Holocaust not being talked about in history class as it causes heated arguments and violence.
Their belief the Jews are always wrong is way stronger than the teacher who is coming from a society that believes everything is nuanced and shades of grey.
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What shades of grey are in the Holocaust?
MisterFalcon
Member
None but try telling that to a bunch of angry kids who are certain the Palestinians are being Holocausted 100000 times worse.
Than I wish teachers and schools had more of a backbone. There's no connection between the Palestinians and Holocaust.
Angry kids, I'm in full support of brining back the ruler and slap.
zenspider
Member
I’ve been listening to a lot of Bruce Gilly and I’m starting to wonder how true any of that colonialism narrative is.
Too much too get into here — highly recommend watching Douglas Murray’s episode of Uncancelled History with Bruce Gilly — but it seems like a lot of the narrative was retconned by Marxists after WWII and now we we’re saddled with the unexamined notion that there’s some kind of pre-colonial indigenous governance that leads to endless peace and prosperity as long as white people don’t come and fuck it up.
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winjer
Gold Member
And the curious thing is that the Palestinian leadership did seek an alliance with Hitler, as to continue the holocaust in the middle east.
Oh, thats CLEARLY propaganda. No one with any level of understanding of "pre-european contact" civilizations thinks there was just a kumbahyah network of friendly tribes outside of very specific examples (the initial reports of the aboriginals in the coast of Australia for example).
But it's a reaction to the "all natives are savages" depictions we got in Westerns, Tarzan-type stories, etc. Indigenous peoples had their own culture and history for sure but it was no less bloody, brutal, and extreme as european/middle east/chinese history that we know better. Any periods of "peace" are largely because of the ruthless exploitation of other people living farther away in order to pay for things or a rigidly enforced system of class and "know your place" and we just focus on the guys at the top.
Hawking Radiation
Member
The world has gone mad.
Thank God I live in a country that doesn't have any beef with anyone, at this point in time and long may it remain that way.
Thank God I live in a country that doesn't have any beef with anyone, at this point in time and long may it remain that way.
LegendOfKage
Member
Agree with a lot of this. What the US did to Indians was absolutely barbaric, but so was what Indians did to each other before settlers got there. History is brutal all around. I just mention colonialism because that's the narrative anti-Israel people want to present, but it's way more true for all three of those places that I mentioned than it is Israel. Feels like hypocrisy to me.
zenspider
Member
I don't know man! If you asked me in my twenties I'd have probably thought kumbahyah as some kind of leftist default... I read a book about the Indian slave trade in the Southwest that popped that bubble early on, but even still I'd probably have split the difference if nobody bothered to challenge or educate me. I'm still finding all kinds of "legacy code" kicking around despite having updated my firmware many times now...
I think as is the case with so many things, once you know better, you really lose complete touch with the level of ignorance that is the default average person's assumptions.... sometimes beliefs from early childhood make it through into people who operate heavy machinery.
stn
Member
This world is crazy. I hate war and senseless violence. I'm all for protesting and getting a message across, but senseless vandalism does nothing. As an example, there was one Jewish business in my area that was vandalized because it has a Jewish name, and the irony is its actually operated and owned by a Korean family who has nothing to do with Israel. People are fucking retards.
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
stn
Member
Not at all what I intended. My point was that the vandalism is senseless (whether against someone Jewish or non-Jewish). As an example, a peaceful protest at the nearest Israeli and/or Palestinian embassy is rational and may even get some public media attention. Vandalizing a random business does nothing except inconvenience the local community that uses that business and likely has nothing to do with the war at all.
To be super clear since my previous post was read and understood in a way that I did not intend, I am against violent protests and vandalism, period.
Wait until people find out about the Arab African slave trade. It was the biggest one AND they castrated the men.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
100% blaming others for harm done and 0% accountability for the harm caused by themselves. This seems to be the anti-Israel mode of operation.
It's almost as if they're begging the world not to take them seriously.
Toots
Gold Member
You cannot put this on the teachers, at least in France.
The violence of some isn't for them to deal with.
A teacher with a backbone got decapitated for showing muhamad caricatures in class.
Judiciary system should blame and harshly punish the parents of the children who deny history for religious reasons, or use religion to justify violence towards others.
LegendOfKage
Member
Joe, once again, the voice of reason and nuance. Considers the war in Gaza to be terrible, but also admits that he doesn't know enough to really criticize Israel for how they're going about it. He also strongly condemns the inaction of these colleges to do anything about calls for genocide and rampant antisemitism.
Because I skipped that part in the timestamp, the title refers to a free trip to Israel Bobby Lee got over 10 years ago, only to discover he had to promote the country favorably as a condition of his trip.
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Lukaku's First Touch
Member
It's not only anti-israel. It's amazing how Europe is being taken over by religious fanatics that hate everything we are supposed to stand for. We're doomed. I hate Russia with all my heart but they would never let this shit happen. I often wish of a mix of Russian society, where crazies like this are just picked up and sent to siberia, and western beliefs/freedom.
No instead when we normal contributing citizens do shit like this, we get arrested and fined out of our minds. But for a certain religion we just let them do whatever the fuck they want because we are scared they get even more mad.
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Cyberpunkd
Member
You know the answer to "doesn't know enough"? You educate itself.
I listened to Rogan twice since he had two ultrarunners I admire - Courtney Dauwalter and François d'Haene. The guy is absolutely devoid of any intelligent thought, all his questions were pathetically basic.
Kar
Member
stop admiring people.
You know the answer to "doesn't know enough"? You educate itself.
I listened to Rogan twice since he had two ultrarunners I admire - Courtney Dauwalter and François d'Haene. The guy is absolutely devoid of any intelligent thought, all his questions were pathetically basic.
RJMacready73
Simps for Amouranth
you do realize hes a normal joe who gets some incredibly smart people from an incredibly diverse range of professions and backgrounds on for a chat, he's not going to be firing out the smart questions like, hes not an expert in everything
You know the answer to "doesn't know enough"? You educate itself.
I listened to Rogan twice since he had two ultrarunners I admire - Courtney Dauwalter and François d'Haene. The guy is absolutely devoid of any intelligent thought, all his questions were pathetically basic.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I'm no fan of Rogan, but I think the idea that it's easy or effective to just "educate yourself" is somewhat misguided.
We live in a world with unprecedented access to information, but analyzing it critically is proving more difficult by the day.
Instead, people are increasingly likely to just use their own subjective standards to decide what is or is not a thoroughly researched opinion.
The result is a world full of self proclaimed experts, which are often much more dangerous than people who are ignorant about a topic.
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