StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
And if that fails, watch out for Ham Ass!
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Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel. 1400+ killed, 2400+ wounded, 240+ abducted. Israel declares war
- Thread starter ADiTAR
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And you get 72 Chick-peas.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Given what it's like in Gaza, I'd rather have chick peas. lol
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
He's still part of the team. He wasn't taken off the team.
And it seems the CSA is worried about violence from anti-war, pro-israel, and pro Palestinian protests ... Violence that they worry could affect the players, the audience, etc.
He's still playing, just not as Captain.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
In what ways?
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
She speaks the truth. Folks targeting cancer hospitals are a special kind of crazy. So the fuck what it's Jewish owned?!?! They're taking care of people!!!!
There's a lot to criticize those in power but you don't get to target every day people (even heads of hospitals) for being Jewish or Muslim or Christian or whatever. These people are just like Westboro Baptist Church, the abortion clinic terrorists, isis, etc.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I thought targeting hospitals is a war crime!
Edit: Speaking seriously, this attitude of zero boundaries when it comes to blaming others, along with zero accountability when it comes to their own fuck-ups, is a tremendous handicap for any constructive Palestinian cause.
As an Israeli leftist who supported the Oslo process in the past, I've been increasingly disappointed by the infantile level of discourse among pro Palestinians since this war started. This is not how you convince the world that you are a responsible people who are capable of self governance.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I thought targeting hospitals is a war crime!
Edit: Speaking seriously, this attitude of zero boundaries when it comes to blaming others, along with zero accountability when it comes to their own fuck-ups, is a tremendous handicap for any constructive Palestinian cause.
As an Israeli leftist who supported the Oslo process in the past, I've been increasingly disappointed by the infantile level of discourse among pro Palestinians since this war started. This is not how you convince the world that you are a responsible people who are capable of self governance.
They might have a "government" but they don't have real autonomy ... Not until they can be their own country. And it doesn't seem like that's happening.
They need ordinary people to run ... No billionaire backed radicals ... Real solutions to their problems (with real backing by Israel, the US, Saudi, etc) not just monetarily and a way to track where any money goes... They need to rebuild their whole infrastructure and homes... What they need is a Marshall Plan... Japan, Germany, UK, etc didn't rebuild on their own... They had a TON of help and backing from the US and other nations.
efyu_lemonardo
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In Israel we've been making that exact analogy, and I'm for it, assuming there are enough Palestinians who would support such a thing. It's that second part that worries me, hopefully those worries turn out to be unfounded.
WTF? They ARE their own country. Name any other group that gets as much positive UN attention? And were handed a perfectly functioning highly developed choice piece of land as well!
Perhaps having "Kill our neighbors and take their land" as a part of your primary goal doesn't lend itself to a smooth government with trusting allies next door? The Palestinians got tons of money but corruption, greed, and hate squandered ALL OF IT. Hard to blame Israel for the sorry state of affairs in Gaza when Hamas runs it the way they do.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
The Palestinian people didnt get that money... Hamas took it ... there was HIGH unemployment in Gaza BEFORE the current war... But it's more complicated than just blaming Hamas alone... because so many others had their hands in the cookie jar. I don't think the majority of Palestinians are WITH Hamas... especially when you know Hamas punishes those who don't give them praise on TV or the Internet or anything else.
But no, Gaza isn't a country and neither is The West Bank. They're basically a strip of land ... Even now, Netanyahu is against a two state solution (Israel next door to Palestine). That right there says Gaza isn't a country.
And that choice piece of land has been turned into a wasteland now... probably incapable of sustaining life for the foreseeable future.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
To further elaborate, this is not the first time that such an idea has been discussed.
Here is an account of the extent of foreign aid and prospects for economic development of Gaza and the West Bank from 2002, the time of the second intifada.
Notice that, even then, the prospects of a Palestinian Marshall Plan were not promising. Today the situation is much worse, if you ask me. This is why I worry.
U.S. Aid to PA Exceeds Marshall Plan Aid to Europe
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
To further elaborate, this is not the first time that such an idea has been discussed.
Here is an account of the extent of foreign aid and prospects for economic development of Gaza and the West Bank from 2002, the time of the second intifada.
Notice that, even then, the prospects of a Palestinian Marshall Plan were not promising. Today the situation is much worse, if you ask me. This is why I worry.
U.S. Aid to PA Exceeds Marshall Plan Aid to Europe
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
Yeah, it's sad. Some more changes need to happen ... Maybe incentivize some Palestinians to snipe Hamas fighters and recruiters since bombing isn't doing the job as effectively as we all want.
But, Hamas IS Gaza, its the elected government. That they just ran with the money and did jack squat to help other folks living in Gaza does not mean Gaza couldn't function just like any other nation. If "Palestinians" wanted to open trade with other nations, establish embassies, get a voice at the UN (other than what they have now), accept business investments, allow free travel in and out, they COULD have had all those things, except their GOVERNMENT ixnay'd it all to keep launching rockets at Israel, teaching hate in their schools, and allowing their leaders to live in luxury abroad. Gaza is far more than something like an American Indian reservation with it's pseudo-independence.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Umm... No. It isn't that simple.
And why are you putting the word Palestinians in quotations?
That election was over a decade ago. Not last year. They haven't had an election SINCE then. I don't know why people keep repeating that, especially since Hamas campaigned on an actual moderate platform and THEN showed their true intentions once elected. Ruled Gaza through fear, disappearing anyone who didn't tow the government line ... or are we forgetting the ISRAELI stories of Palestinians who gave blood, protected Israeli citizens during and after October 7? There are good people there ... But this war... *Sigh*
They are no more Gaza than I'm a Choctaw Indian. A people ruled by fear of violence and reprisals can't be what we want them to be. Not when half the population is children and elderly women.
It's in quotations because folks tend to separate out Hamas and Palestinians as if they are two totally distinct groups when convenient and then lump them in together if that serves their purpose. Calling them Palestinians also reinforces an idea that there was an actual Palestine state, which there really never was in a time frame relevant to this discussion (if we are gonna dredge up centuries old "who lived where" then CLEARLY the Israelis win since they were there THOUSANDS of years ago).
Gaza had a chance to step into the worlds spotlight and show everyone that Muslims can progress, evolve, and co-exist. They did not and instead went the opposite direction into regressive near barbarity. Other Muslim countries occasionally try as well, maybe one day we will see a truly enlightened Islamic state again like their heyday of social (well, for the times), intellectual, philosophical, and technological achievement. Hell, I'm not sure Europe or America are really showcasing their best qualities either, I think we are in the beginnings of what will later be described (if anyone survives) as a great "Dark Age" precipitated, like so many before us, by climate change, social unrest, mass migration, and conflict over resources.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
I would not be surprising that a lot of palestinians are pretty happy with killing israelis. I personally don't believe that there are that many palestinians who actually don't support Hamas. There hasn't been an indication for that all.
If people living in Europe hate Israel with passion, I would believe that in Gaza there are more people like that.
efyu_lemonardo
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We know for a fact that Hamas incentivizes Palestinians for killing and kidnapping Israelis. Offering counter-incentives (rewarding them for betraying and turning in members of Hamas, that is) can be a fruitful tactic. I'm certain the Shin Bet (Israeli FBI) has been doing this for a while now.
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RiccochetJ
Gold Member
And in another episode of bad life choices, a pro-Palestinian protester tries to disrupt a Republican Party event in Texas.
I can only think that he forgot that he wasn't on a college campus and was actually in the real world.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I never want to do that whole thing of "Palestine IS Hamas"... that's just giving justification to hate and call for their genocide.
The fact is, more Palestinians just want peace with Israel than want them destroyed... Or at least that was the case BEFORE the war... This will be a repeat of Iraq and Afghanistan all over again. With all the civilian casualties and injuries (I've seen kids pulled from rubble who no longer have parents and had to later get amputations), and very little aid going out to them, they're now hating Israel. Their homes destroyed, relatives eliminated, bodies disfigured... that's what happened in Iraq when we went blustering in there under false pretenses... there were NO jihadists there... then there were after our stupid ass introduction ... because WE invaded and bombed their country!
We may not see eye to eye on this because I DO believe the Netanyahu government is hell bent on making it harder for the people to actually have any peace or return home... I don't trust ANY government because they're all corrupt! I don't trust ANY military because they're all trigger happy institutions that have no accountability (how many times have we seen stories of women raped in the military and they don't receive any justice... or cops/soldiers who kill and make HORRIBLE mistakes and suffer no consequences... Uvalde comes to mind).
Maybe I'm too much of a bleeding heart to want to see all sides honestly and not fall into a binary of "good and bad" ... because the Israeli people are actually wanting Netanyahu OUT and so do many older Palestinians want Hamas OUT!
ChuckeRearmed
Member
From what I see on the west, people are happily attacking muslims for free. I suspect it is much worse for those living in Gaza and West Bank. Haven't people from West Bank cheered when a couple of bodies were hung on the pole? I doubt they were paid to celebrate.
I mean, if the parents believe that their children dying as martyrs is a good thing, what incentives will work on them?
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Before the war, the vast majority of Palestinians didn't trust Hamas...
Since the war, support for Hamas has gone up ... why wouldn't it? NOW They see Hamas as protectors from bombardment... losing their homes, etc. While it's gone up, that doesn't mean all or most support Hamas. But flattening their homes, leaving kids as orphans... that's not the way to get them on your side.
The quotes and more here: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/isra...welcome&utm_term=email_1&utm_content=20240119
Wastelander92
Member
Cut off one head and two more will grow.
Spooky Scary Skeleton
Member
Halal Hydra
efyu_lemonardo
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Elections were planned for 2021 which were ultimately cancelled for several reasons. One of those reasons was Hamas was projected to win many votes and Abbas was afraid of letting that happen. So it's not completely unfounded to say that there is still strong support for Hamas. Whether that support means identifying with the cause for destruction of Israel is a different matter. For all we know, support for Hamas could be motivated more by fear and ignorance.
Source:
Which brings me to my second point (regarding fear and ignorance): allow me to suggest another interpretation for the rise in Hamas support: according to this report, only a small percentage are aware of the atrocities committed by Hamas on Oct. 7.
It's possible that from their perspective, it was a legitimate military uprising in response to Israel threatening the al Aqsa mosque, which is what they seem to have been told, making Israel's response unreasonably cruel and brutal. Of course they would support Hamas in such a case, because the narrative would seem to justify Hamas propaganda that Israel is evil.
Source:
Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign
The findings signal more difficulties for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza and raise questions about Israel’s goal of ending Hamas’ capabilities.
apnews.com
The good news is that concrete and actionable advice can be taken from this interpretation: start showing Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank footage from October 7th, and see how it affects their support of Hamas. The IDF could force them to watch it if they must.
If public opinion begins to change, then it'll be a strong indicator that there are enough Palestinians who still believe in the rule of law and the sanctity of human life. If support for Hamas remains high, things are much more murky and ugly.
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BlackTron
Member
It's hard to get an accurate picture really. The majority of the populace could be Hamas cronies and just agreeing/lying with them. Or, there could be a great number of civilians who hate them, but Hamas has cracked down on dissent even more now than before the attack, so they're even more scared to express their true opinion (therefore, an "increase in trust").
efyu_lemonardo
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What do you think of the second half of my post, just above yours. Including the actionable advice which I added in an edit.
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BlackTron
Member
I agree with making them watch the footage. My personal read on it all (which could easily be wrong because I'm sitting in a chair in a different continent) is that by and large civilians are complicit with letting themselves be brainwashed by Hamas because they see no other way out, it's all they know and just roll with it. I think many are true extremists and beyond hope (basically Hamas themselves) but a good chunk who say they support the attack (even if they saw footage) might admit otherwise if they weren't trapped in Gaza and fear reprisal.
Think of the woman who cried out cursing Hamas after her child died and everyone around crowded her to shut her up so she wouldn't be killed. Something tells me those same people would hesitate to record on a piece of paper or recording that they don't like Hamas. This is why I question polls.
This isn't proof that they're all innocent or that there is a defined line between Hamas and civilians either. It's a massive clusterfuck.
efyu_lemonardo
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Drawing the line has been the biggest challenge of this war from day one. I said as much on RE, when Israel had yet to invade by ground, before I was banned.
More effort should be concentrated on creating methods to do this, and following them through. The IDF approach of mostly applying force is not, in itself, enough to bring an end to this conflict.
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BlackTron
Member
Kenpachii
Member
How i would solve it.
1) displace the population after taking the entire gaza strip and let other country's deal with it.
2) invade the entire region, level it. make huge communist strips and introduce hard labor and re-education camps into the entire region, let mass immigration happen from 3rd world country's that are not muslim and make gaza strip bigger by claiming land from the ocean. Then start china 2.0 sweatshops where products are made for super cheap and export to pay for it. Also have population control and start deals with russia/china to migrate the current gaza population into there work camps and displace large groups that don't fall in line.
3) invade, tell china they can have the land and do whatever they want with it and extend there influence or start a new china 2.0 in the middle east.
Let's be real here, gaza community are savages. Basically tribe people that like to cut heads, rape and sell cut off heads they just got a muslim religion now, they are basically still headcutters. U deal with them in a more aggressive manner.
Once the next door neightbours start to hear what isreal is planning to do, they will go apeshit and maybe start to come up with other solutions. Because at the end it doesnt'matter what those country's think or not, because they are already not supporting isreal anyway. So they have no power over anything.
What isreal needs to do, is repopulate the entire region with another group of people and start plans to reduce the muslim influence in the area completely by mass immigration of asians. Instead of just sitting in a corner waiting to get picked off one by one.
conquer, destroy, rebuild, improve, expand.
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BlackTron
Member
Step 1 is already so simple! I love it!
Kenpachii
Member
Doesn't have to be simple, u warn muslim country's they are incoming and cut them off the next day. If they like it or not isn't your issue because they have no influence on your decision anyway as they where to stupid to work with you in the past and create economic or other kind of influences to put a gun towards your head to not do it.
Anyway if isreal was smart they should have started mass immigration already from the moment they set food on that land in order to snowball the population massively with populations that are not muslim and incorporate gaza slowly into isreal piece by piece and mix there population all over isreal.
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A "Transfer" sorta is what a lot of right wing people in Israel sorta want. It's not doable, it does make sense, but you can't move 3-4 million people. We have weak leaders, they have weak leader, and the West love to take both sides which it can't really do.
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Kenpachii
Member
It's not realistic indeed, but u force a problem for muslim country's to deal with.
The same way italia just forced europe to get swarmed by immigrants because they didn't give a fuck about dealing with the problem themselves anymore and just put all the immigrants on trains into europe and now it was a europe problem.
A more realistic approach is to snowball the gaza population with another population and let them deal with it aka china 2.0 solutions and slowly through re-education camps and work labor camps start to integrate them back into a new world that is formed by a more aggressive leadership but atleast stable like china.
And start plans to drastically increase populations and land gains in the region which will force other country's around it towards the table and make deals.
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yeah, I doubt Israel will ever do re-education camps and work labor. It's true that UNRWA is teaching kids to hate Jews, I just think if the teaching were neutral you'd get a generation that doesn't have the hate.
Kenpachii
Member
They won't because they are to civilized. Look china/north korea/russia have tons of different etnicity's under there belt that hate eachother and they are not killing eachother off, because they understand how to deal with it. The west thinks that love parades and peace demonstrations are going to solve a issue of this kind. Yea good luck with that.
If the west doesn't want to play ball, go look towards the east.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
Personally, I think in another couple of years, German's stance on Israel will seriously change. Which is a shame, considering that it is one of the last european open supporters of Israel.
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Doubt.
I'll expand. Europe is now seeing what Israel is dealing with. Immigrants in the last ten years has not been kind to Europeans, no matter how progressive they want to be. Holland just moved more to the right, Italy, and more will follow.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
You want totalitarianism?! You want to take people from their homes because you think they're all savages?
This is a horrible take! And you believe in the model minority myth...
Your whole post is insanity!
I dunno, that breakdown is suspiciously similar to what we see here in the US, just 2 opposing parties flip-flopped based on whether "their guy" is in charge. 1/3 is "enthusiastic", a chunck is middling, and roughly half are in opposition. Now if the US went to war with another country and started raping, torturing, kidnapping, and killing non-combatants, would you say the government is totally divorced from the rest of the people, or enacting the will of (a fair amount of) the people?Before the war, the vast majority of Palestinians didn't trust Hamas...
Since the war, support for Hamas has gone up ... why wouldn't it? NOW They see Hamas as protectors from bombardment... losing their homes, etc. While it's gone up, that doesn't mean all or most support Hamas. But flattening their homes, leaving kids as orphans... that's not the way to get them on your side.
The quotes and more here: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/isra...welcome&utm_term=email_1&utm_content=20240119
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I dunno, that breakdown is suspiciously similar to what we see here in the US, just 2 opposing parties flip-flopped based on whether "their guy" is in charge. 1/3 is "enthusiastic", a chunck is middling, and roughly half are in opposition. Now if the US went to war with another country and started raping, torturing, kidnapping, and killing non-combatants, would you say the government is totally divorced from the rest of the people, or enacting the will of (a fair amount of) the people?
Honestly, if America did that and I was from another country... I'd see the government/military as who is the bad guys. Not the ordinary non-combatant people.
The "ordinary non-combatant" people have raped, stole, possibly killed, definitely kidnapped and housed hostages from 10/7. I understand the want or need to sympathize with people in Gaza. But the majority are complacent in what happened. Same as UN saying they never knew tunnels were dug right under them, or Hamas was in hospitals, etc. etc.
All evidence point to a very sad case of a population that is driven by hate.
ChuckeRearmed
Member
The problem is that new dutch government is relatively useless and unable to form a coalition to a point where they new prime minister back pedalled on some of his promises already. Italy moving to the right did not change anything in regards of immigration at all. The latest German law changes will literally grant citizenship to people who has been supporting Erdogan for generations
It is like with UK where the Brexit was about less migrants, yet there are more migrants now and London gets tens or hundreds of thousands people protesting against Israel. People uses nazis and far right as boogeymen but there is no single far right politician in Europe who was able to implement their policies. It just brought more chaos that is used by some global institutions to undermine christianity and make the voices of islamists more prominent.
And even the election of Donald Tusk in Poland, means that Poland will highly likely to follow other european states policies with more migration. Because every time people are talking about "good migration" it just means that everybody should come. No exceptions.
I think if states like Russia, Turkey, Iran last long enough, the politics of Europe will change significantly enough for them to suddenly gain the support. Would not be surprised that in time Erdogan's Turkey will join EU because there will be a bigger push towards islamic support.
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That's a problem of leadership, and if there's a crippling of what people chose we'll eventually see riots. World unrest is coming. At least we had the 2000s.The problem is that new dutch government is relatively useless and unable to form a coalition to a point where they new prime minister back pedalled on some of his promises already. Italy moving to the right did not change anything in regards of immigration at all. It is like with UK where the Brexit was about less migrants, yet there are more migrants now and London gets tens or hundreds of thousands people protesting against Israel. People uses nazis and far right as boogeymen but there is no single far right politician in Europe who was able to implement their policies. And even the election of Donald Tusk in Poland, means that Poland will highly likely to follow other european states policies with more migration.
I mean the latest Germany law changes will literally grant citizenship to people who has been supporting Erdogan for generations
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