viveks86
Member
I'd much rather prefer this argument than any claims about empathy or evolution having to do with people's criticism. It is, at the very least, far more honest.
HBO Original | The Last of Us | Part II OT | You Can't Stop This
- Thread starter Represent.
- Start date
Giallo Corsa
Gold Member
I mean, Bella is one side of the coin, then, there's the other like the case of Zack Efron where he was lucky enough to be born "handsome" but...have you seen though Viveks how Zack turned out to be lately lately due to all that stupid plastic surgery ? Dude looks like an inflated doll ffs and I'd challenge anyone to say that he looks "normal" 'cause he doesn't anymore.
What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter whether you were unlucky as to be born "ugly" or were born handsome/beautiful and somehow managed to fuck it up somewhere along the way, weird is weird (same as "ugly").
While standards may vary depending on the undividual (i.e, someone may find a plain looking person beautiful or vice versa), some general standards still apply, for example, Tilda Swinton looks very androgynous but the gal has c-l-a-s-s and an "x factor" which would put her into the "beautiful" category.As a different example, while I may find Gal Gadot extremely unlikeable with the body of a...cucumber (no female curves in sight), to say that she's "ugly" would just be personal opinion and not a fact 'cause while she does have the body of a 14 year old girl (i.e, undeveloped), the woman still looks good.
Bella Ramsey, unfortunately for her, isn't one of those women and that's OK.
Cheers
MSduderino
Member
There's just more to talk about this show than Bella Ramsey's attractiveness. We get it, some of you are so bothered by what she looks like you can't even get past it to criticize anything else.
Giallo Corsa
Gold Member
Not really.
The show is mediocre with mediocre and cheap cinematography compared to other HBO shows, has mediocre acting compared to the usual HBO standards, every character is completely and UTTERLY miscast (Tommy and Dina being the exception), features race swapping for the modern era audience® amongst other attention seeking internet cookie points goodies® and if you played the games, it's literally unneeded due to A) all of the above and B) the games were already cinematic enough.
Wanna see some good HBO shows ? Go watch the Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Carneyvale, Rome, The Pacific, Band of Brothers etc, cause let me tell you, TLOU ain't "it"
March Climber
Member
I'm waiting for them to notice that one of the characters from the intro in Abby's group is also the main character of Intergalactic.
MSduderino
Member
Yes, really. You literally proved my point by talking about something else. Thank you. To be clear, I'm not gushing over the show, I'm saying let's talk about something else other than how hot or not Bella Ramsey is. Criticize it all you want.Not really.
The show is mediocre with mediocre and cheap cinematography compared to other HBO shows, has mediocre acting compared to the usual HBO standards, every character is completely and UTTERLY miscast (Tommy and Dina being the exception), features race swapping for the modern era audience® amongst other attention seeking internet cookie points goodies® and if you played the games, it's literally unneeded due to A) all of the above and B) the games were already cinematic enough.
Wanna see some good HBO shows ? Go watch the Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Carneyvale, Rome, The Pacific, Band of Brothers etc, cause let me tell you, TLOU ain't "it"
Giallo Corsa
Gold Member
viveks86
Member
For me, the bolded is everything (even though that's not exactly what you are saying). It should be OK for actors to be unattractive if their role doesn't require it. I'm sick of the "untold" (actually explicitly told quite often) requirement that they should be good looking no matter what their role is. It's fucked people up in real life, and we are all constantly chasing ridiculous beauty standards. The sheer number of men and women with body image issues is staggering and the shit they do to themselves to overcome it will ruin us as a society. We should be healthy and active. That's it. The rest of our physical attributes should not be controlled or endlessly judged and it shouldn't matter beyond finding a partner that's equally attracted. A big way to facilitate this is to have media reflect the real world more accurately, so that we aren't stuck in a vicious cycle that sends more people into body dysmorphia, anorexia, surgeries and depression. What you have stated earlier is the truth. People want the ones on the screens to look good (with loftier standards for females than males). This has always been the norm. But this norm has proven to be unhealthy for both sexes.
If someone tries to "fix" that by having a girl with strange features play a stereotypically good looking kid, where her attractiveness is not relevant to the character, I just can't fault them for it. As a result, I find more sympathy towards the criticism of Abby's casting, as her physique was a big part of her character description. With Ellie, it's... whatever. I can look past it as long as she plays the role well, which I think she did in season 1. Others might disagree on her acting chops, but that at least is a debate I would actively encourage and dive into, instead of her facial structure.
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RoadHazard
Gold Member
Didn't realize so many dislike Bella. I think she's pretty great. She's not exactly the Ellie from the games, but she's a good Ellie.
Jimmy_liv
Member
I hadn't considered that he killed Eugine twice! Nice mate, great spot.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
So are you implying that bullying is not acceptable at ANY age? Cause if that's so...why is everyone bullying this actress?
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Yeah, if you consider that she hates him but wants to sort of work her way through it because she logically understands that he didn't have a choice, just imagine how she would feel knowing that the lack of a cure was very much on Joel and there's no proving the negative at this point right? Like, it might not have worked, but we'll never know if it would have failed. What we do know is that no cure was made and Joel made that choice and that everyone who is killed by the infected or as a result of the infected or the conditions they live in is because of Joel. Everyone probably has a good reason to hate him even more, especially her.
She says "tell me no matter how bad it is and I promise I'll help you." It's definitely a promise that she wouldn't be able to keep.
She says "tell me no matter how bad it is and I promise I'll help you." It's definitely a promise that she wouldn't be able to keep.
He's going to die the next day unless they make a change. They're doing something with the horde coming due to the cordycep network, but they're still doing Ellie's patrol. Rather than have Tommy and Joel on a routine patrol in the middle of a blizzard, it's possible that they'll do something where Ellie doesn't come back right away and Joel and Tommy go looking for her, and because Maria gave Joel a hard time about refugees, he tries to bring in Team Abby, only for them to kill him, so there presumably isn't going to be a breakthrough here. It'll actually be pretty interesting how her character develops moving forward. My guess is that future scenes with her in it will be her trying to help Ellie through the loss of Joel.
CityHunter1981
An Absolute Desaster
Couldn't they have send Bella to the gym a lot to build up some muscle? She just looks weak and it will be not fun to see how they try to portray her as a bad ass later.
AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
Ugly because she doesnt look anything like Ellie. Nobody is talking about her tits or ass, but it is so jarring when you get someone cast that looks the polar opposite of one of your most memorable game characters. Ellie isnt some hot piece either but she at least is supposed to be skinny/lanky female based on her character. You guys need to stop twisting the narrative how its about her sexual looks when nobody literally anywhere mentioned her not being "sexy" enough. Its the usual strawman comment, to shield yourself from any comeback. Dont say things were said that never were, you are making shit up.
Why shouldnt we voice our dislike as fans? Im tired of this pampering...oh think about her feelings, she is human too...yeah all good but you look nothing like the character that I spent 100+ hours with and all I see is AliExpress cosplay saying Ellie's lines. Yes she is butt ugly, why cant we say that? Nobody was saying that for Game of Thrones because she fit her role, here she doesnt fit at all and looks more like a forced casting and its taking me out of the experience when I see Bella who looks like a 7yr old Humpty Dumpty instead of some girl that looks like she went through a lot mentally and phisically and is full of rage. Not to mention her acting chops are not that good and that death stare really feels weird as one poster mentioned here.
Uma Thurman you could say is a little bit androgenous giving her this slightly weird look but it doesnt change the fact that she kills it in every movie she acts and makes any character look/sound cool. Bella's skills are 3/10.
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Emedan
Member
That's family, there's other evolutionary beneficial reasons to be sympathetic towards them. You're talking about subjectiveness, but there's biological reasons why some people generally are considered beautiful and others aren't. "The biological imperatives that are attractive to us are for seeking a partner or a leader" Sure but you don't think that has an effect in how you perceive a person generally? Or you honestly believe it only come into effect in those two areas? I'm not shallow, I don't regard myself as very handsome and I wouldn't say most of my friends are, but they're not in a television series, I don't know "Ellie" so I can only base my liking of her on shallow factors. You people acting stupid.
viveks86
Member
What about new friends? Or a random, unattractive, but kind, stranger on the street who might be struggling with something and could use your help, or an ugly looking dog that you want to care for? Or a person you have never seen starving in Somalia? Or an unseen child in a war torn country? Heck, people have empathy for trees, lizards and octopus and other beings that aren't "attractive". My point is, human empathy is extremely varied and complex and often exists completely independent of attractiveness. It's why books or even music can evoke empathy. So coupling empathy and beauty like one is dependent on the other, and defending it as biological reality is just plain wrong.
Whoever we might see as universally beautiful, across cultures, races and history, are beautiful for aesthetic reasons, such as symmetry, features, tone etc. There's not much "biological" going on there. It's like appreciating a painting or a mountain. But if you set aside those exceptions, you would be very surprised how much regular people would find other regular people attractive (or not) and completely disagree with each other. And then you layer race and culture and an angel for one looks like a ghoul to another. 300 to 500 years ago, men and women needed to be a quite fat according to modern standards to be considered attractive. A few hundred years is not even a blip in the evolutionary scale.
Of course it can influence. The question is, in what direction and to what extent? The 2 areas I mentioned are from an evolutionary context. There are so many other contexts where attractiveness can actually be a detriment. For example, my personal experiences have made me skeptical of attractive people, because they often turn out to be either dull, entitled or deceptive. So I might involuntarily be more cautious with an attractive stranger, which means i may even empathize less with whatever they claim to be going through. I'm sure there are just as many kind, interesting and genuine attractive people. So this is subjective and would vary based on people's life experiences and mindset. It's a social context in my example. There is no evolutionary truth to glean there about attractive people outside of the 2 areas I mentioned.
May be you aren't. But we all have shallow blind spots where we dismiss things without looking deeper. Perhaps if Bella's version of Ellie were a real person that looks like her and you hear about her life, you may empathize. In that case, "fictitious character on TV show" may be your blindspot. Or her acting skills don't appeal to you. Or the game's version of her is interfering with your ability to see her in the role. These may be happening subconsciously. There could be so many legit reasons for not being able to empathize that aren't as shallow as "she looks ugly, so anyone empathizing is lying to themselves because… evolution, obviously!". What your actual reason is… only you'll know. It may very well be what you stated, but it may be worthwhile to look deeper.
But you have all the opportunity to know her over a whole season (and more). And if her being ugly is stopping you, that's fine. Then, that's your blind spot. Has nothing to do with evolution and general human behavior. Because guess what, the show, including Bella, was watched and enjoyed by millions. We can at least agree we share the same DNA?
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Bert Big Balls
Gold Member
Well I'm really glad this thread is just talking about Bella's appearance rather than the actual show. Fuck me.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
It's so funny to see the switch up among viewers who are like "fuck joel for what he did and he just destroyed his relationship with Ellie."
Next episode: Why is Ellie acting so bratty to Joel. I hate her.
Next episode: Why is Ellie acting so bratty to Joel. I hate her.
MSduderino
Member
And Pedro Pascal doesn't look anything like Joel in the game. When hearing the complaints about how ugly Bella is, it comes off as her not being sexy enough because others aren't so concerned about her looks, even if you're not trying to sexualize the character. Characters in an adaption consistently look different than how they appeared in the source material. I think it's a fair criticism to say she doesn't look like a trauma survivor because she looks too well fed or not stressed enough. Also fair criticism to say she sucks at acting (I agree). Calling her "ugly as sin" isn't relevant because being attractive isn't a part of Ellie's character really. If anything, they downplay her looks to have Dina as the more attractive one.
AeonGaidenRaiden
Member
saintjules
Member
Giallo Corsa
Gold Member
Great Auk
Member
For real
Dina is waaaaaay too hot for Ellie with these casting decisions come on now how much suspension of disbelief do I have to endure in order to watch a show?
I already have to deal with zombies, that should already be enough.
Now you're telling me an ugly 9 year old can score a woman like Dina?
VulcanRaven
Member
Mark Mylod is directed the upcoming episode 2. He did many episodes of Succession and Game of Thrones.
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Hugare
Member
And now we are stuck with a girl that looks 13 playing Part II's Ellie. Was this the better option?
I dont give a damn about Bella' ugliness. Seeing a 13y looking girl killing a bunch of people and barely looking (and acting) like Ellie in the game is where my problems begin.
"Oh but Ellie changes during the events in the game". She never acted like a 13y old girl during Part II. Even during the beginning of it. But she does in the show. Ellie and Dina never acted like kids during patrol like they did in the show.
It's a total misunderstanding of the character. Druckman is a pussy with no voice, letting producers and actors fuck up his work.
They should have cast another actress for Part II Ellie. Other shows do this all the time after a timeskip. Hell, we've seen it on HBO with House of the Dragon.
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MSduderino
Member
Not like that's unrealistic. plenty of hot women with less attractive partners that are punching above their weight. I think the show even hinted at in the scene with the "every guy in the room is jealous of you right now" comments when they were dancing together.
RyanEvans21
Member
Why not? If Pete Davidson's can why not ellie?
viveks86
Member
Is this the first time where you found something stupid while others think it's brilliant? Happens all the time. All art is subjective.
Giallo Corsa
Gold Member
Sure thing Viv, thing is, this, for an HBO show it's absolutely not up to the usual standards.
Remember, this is the company that produced The wire, The Sopranos, Deadwood, Band of brothers, The Pacific, Carneyvale etc etc.
TLOU is literally a...show for the...how to put it, "modern audiences®" with everything that entails.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
What makes it for modern audiences?
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captainnapalm
Member
The relentless nihilism, negativity and obsession with identity politics?
So apparently this Sunday is the episode where Joel gets brained. I'm really interested to see if people stay with the story when you don't have the Naughty Dog gameplay and graphics to make up for it. I think a lot of people are going to be very disappointed. All that's left is an unsatisfying revenge story with very little to say - unless you think the presence of strong women and trans people and whatever else constitutes depth and meaning. Poor substitute for the heart of the story which was Joel finding purpose again after a terrible tragedy.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
it's the apocalypse. not too many other lesbians around
Giallo Corsa
Gold Member
I'll play :
- Race swapping because "reasons".
- A whole episode dedicated to 2 gay characters because "reasons".
- Show is uterrly miscast because "reasons".
...and all the other reasons
captainnapalm
mentioned.
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Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Imagine being in your feels over a fictional character's death 5 years later.
P.S. Vito is gay in sopranos, Meadow is in an interracial relationship on Sopranos, Omar is gay in the wire and so is Kima. Rhonda and Lt Daniels start up a relationship as well. Both the Wire and Sopranos have massive revenge plots. Band of brothers is one of the most bleak shows of all time, Bastogne episode especially. There are no trans characters in TLOU. Calamity Jane in deadwood literally dresses like a man and is one of the most masculine characters in the show.
The only thing that has changed is how you perceive things.
P.S. Vito is gay in sopranos, Meadow is in an interracial relationship on Sopranos, Omar is gay in the wire and so is Kima. Rhonda and Lt Daniels start up a relationship as well. Both the Wire and Sopranos have massive revenge plots. Band of brothers is one of the most bleak shows of all time, Bastogne episode especially. There are no trans characters in TLOU. Calamity Jane in deadwood literally dresses like a man and is one of the most masculine characters in the show.
The only thing that has changed is how you perceive things.
Giallo Corsa
Gold Member
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Maybe because the race of the characters has never been a defining part of their story in the games and they got a stacked cast to play the characters, which lead to multiple emmy nominations?
Imagine thinking getting Pedro Pascal is somehow "reasons"
The biggest race swaps are Sarah and Maria. Nico Parker absolutely killed it as Sarah and while I think Rutina Wesley has done a poor job as Maria, they haven't given her much to work with AND Maria was never that important of a character to begin with. Her race certainly had no important elements to her character. I can also see why they would cast her with her being an HBO Veteran from True Blood.
One of the best love stories told in television giving massive background into characters adding emotional weight to series and building up the stakes for the show in terms of Joel's eventual bond with Ellie. Believe the episode won several awards. Nick Offerman was amazing in this episode and he's the definitive Bill for sure.
See above. No normies believe this show is miscast, people love the cast.
...and all the other reasons
See above.
Giallo Corsa
Gold Member
I disagree
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
There's more to the story than just the "revenge plot."
What happened to Ellie and Joel's relationship during the 5-year time jump?
Why did Joel kill Eugene?
If the audience stays, they want to know the answers to these questions.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Half the cast of Game of Thrones gets killed off and less people whined and complained and its the biggest show in television history.
These kids are soft.
Will some people tune out? I'm sure they will. That's why characters tend to have plot armor in fiction until at least the end of the story.
You can already see some of the changes that they've made and the road those changes will lead us on.
Tommy's decision to leave and go after Team Abby is going to be bigger since he has a kid for example.
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Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Hugh Jackman is the definitive wolverine. Dude is 6'2 while Wolverine is supposed to be 5'3.
Literally no one gives a shit.
RDJ is in his 40s when he becomes Iron Man rather than his 20s...
Katee Sackhoff is one of the best parts of Battlestar Gallactica... Starbuck is originally a man. Again, no one cares.
John Constantine is supposed to be British, but Keanu Reeves was cast as him. People are dying for a Constantine sequel.
Many people's favorite Spider-Man is Tobey Maguire. He was a 26 year old playing a high school student. Tom Holland has only recently hit the age where Tobey Maguire started...
All of the Bonds have been very different, most of which have not looked anything like Fleming's description of Bond. Daniel Craig and Judi Dench are massive departures yet some of the best to have been involved.
Honestly, I'm talking to myself out here, because I know you're not arguing this in good faith.
Literally no one gives a shit.
RDJ is in his 40s when he becomes Iron Man rather than his 20s...
Katee Sackhoff is one of the best parts of Battlestar Gallactica... Starbuck is originally a man. Again, no one cares.
John Constantine is supposed to be British, but Keanu Reeves was cast as him. People are dying for a Constantine sequel.
Many people's favorite Spider-Man is Tobey Maguire. He was a 26 year old playing a high school student. Tom Holland has only recently hit the age where Tobey Maguire started...
All of the Bonds have been very different, most of which have not looked anything like Fleming's description of Bond. Daniel Craig and Judi Dench are massive departures yet some of the best to have been involved.
Honestly, I'm talking to myself out here, because I know you're not arguing this in good faith.
March Climber
Member
My biggest worry here is that Bella Ramsey is going to have to convince the audience of two things:
1) She is a big enough leading actress to carry what will potentially be 2 full seasons of a prime time show.
2) That her Ellie can realistically take on an entire army of creatures and killers, sometimes solo.
Because of number 2, we can't have any more scenes where she is struggling to take out just one of them.
If you want to keep the same actress between seasons, sure, but I need to feel how I felt when I saw Sarah Connor go from this:
To this:
I don't feel that yet with Ellie. I still see a brash kid playing grownup. However, I will reserve judgment until I see how she acts after the big moment. Maybe Bella will be such a good actor that I will witness a complete change in presence. Maybe. Hopefully.
Great Auk
Member
Because of number 2, we can't have any more scenes where she is struggling to take out just one of them.
If you want to keep the same actress between seasons, sure, but I need to feel how I felt when I saw Sarah Connor go from this:
To this:
I don't feel that yet with Ellie. I still see a brash kid playing grownup. However, I will reserve judgment until I see how she acts after the big moment. Maybe Bella will be such a good actor that I will witness a complete change in presence. Maybe. Hopefully.
Linda Hamilton's transformation was absolutely massive and made the transition from Terminator 1 to 2 completely believable.
She put in a lot of work to look like that in the sequel and it shows.
Bella hasn't done anything at all. Still looks like a little kid. It's simply a bad casting decision.
captainnapalm
Member
You're comparing subplots to central plots. The only real comparison to what TLOU2 does is maybe Game of Thrones but that series had a massive cast of characters to sustain it - although it ultimately crashed and burned and isn't remembered fondly.
TLOU2 makes the terrible shit Joel goes through in the first game - including seeing his kid die in his arms - mean nothing. I know our culture is in such a bad place these days that some people get off on this kind of torture porn - but only some people. Most people want art to be redemptive in some way. But hey, that's just like my opinion man.
Is there? Seems the whole point of the game is that revenge is bad and the cycle of violence it causes is bad. It's an Israeli (Druckmann) making the story about the fucked up place he's from.
VulcanRaven
Member
I'm not sure if her taking down everyone in the game was always believable but it didn't bother me. The show will have a lot less action so I don't think she kills that many. I do understand concern some have about it.My biggest worry here is that Bella Ramsey is going to have to convince the audience of two things:
1) She is a big enough leading actress to carry what will potentially be 2 full seasons of a prime time show.
2) That her Ellie can realistically take on an entire army of creatures and killers, sometimes solo.
Because of number 2, we can't have any more scenes where she is struggling to take out just one of them.
If you want to keep the same actress between seasons, sure, but I need to feel how I felt when I saw Sarah Connor go from this:
To this:
I don't feel that yet with Ellie. I still see a brash kid playing grownup. However, I will reserve judgment until I see how she acts after the big moment. Maybe Bella will be such a good actor that I will witness a complete change in presence. Maybe. Hopefully.
Bella Ramsey has done some training behind the scenes:
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March Climber
Member
That's the issue, there's nothing she can really do besides adding a bit of muscle, because her issue simply comes down to genetics. She's too tiny and she can't grow in height/size anymore. The only thing she has left to convince the audience that she has what it takes is her acting skills.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
My biggest worry here is that Bella Ramsey is going to have to convince the audience of two things:
1) She is a big enough leading actress to carry what will potentially be 2 full seasons of a prime time show.
2) That her Ellie can realistically take on an entire army of creatures and killers, sometimes solo.
Because of number 2, we can't have any more scenes where she is struggling to take out just one of them.
If you want to keep the same actress between seasons, sure, but I need to feel how I felt when I saw Sarah Connor go from this:
To this:
I don't feel that yet with Ellie. I still see a brash kid playing grownup. However, I will reserve judgment until I see how she acts after the big moment. Maybe Bella will be such a good actor that I will witness a complete change in presence. Maybe. Hopefully.
A couple of things that I'll note.
At 21, she's had about as good a career as anyone her age. She's becoming a very successful actress, though I do think she'll have a ceiling. Among her peers the only ones of note are probably Millie Bobby Brown who I'd say has slide with the delays surrounding Stranger Things and some lackluster projects. Similarly, Sophia Lillis has had some bad projects, but I think there's a decent chance she gets cast as Aloy.
Bella Ramsey was probably the best choice for the role in season 2 but yes, does have to overcome some physical obstacles to prove that she can carry this show.
I will say though that people basing her personality on episode 1 are setting themselves up to eat crow. It's clear that they're trying to have her be a bit more jovial and light hearted before the shit hits the fan. She killed the scene with David in Season 1.
Next, I'll add what they did with episode 1. Ellie kills 3 infected in the first episode and she makes Caleb tap out. They're establishing what her skills are. Hand to hand, sniper rifle, and her knife. What was different about the last infected that she struggled with? Well they're trying to establish that the stalkers are a bigger problem than Caleb, a general infected, and a clicker. It took her off guard because her general skills combined with her immunity have her overconfident. This was level setting and you see it often in fiction.
Genos in One Punch Man is one of the strongest characters, but he is always losing. Why? Because to balance off Saitama being OP, you have to establish how threatening things are in a different way, and they do that by utilizing Genos. Vegeta similarly takes constant Ls, as does Neji.
They gave Ellie an early L (though she is still victorious) to level set how dangerous the Stalkers are compared to normal infected. They probably made this choice because they don't want to have a million bloaters but they want to ratchet up the tension beyond just clickers.
The physical training that Bella did for this role and what she has already shown us suggests to me that she'll be capable.
viveks86
Member
Wasn't Euphoria on HBO as well? I'm sure you guys loved that!
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
When you realize that Linda Hamilton is only 5'5... Tom Cruise is only 5'7... Lucy Liu is 5'3...
Michelle Yoeh is 5'4.
I think it's a problem, but I think people are also blowing it out of proportion.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Ellie is Joel's legacy, but Joel also has a legacy of violence and there are consequences to the violence he puts into the world. That's just a reality.
Game of Thrones isn't poorly thought of because the characters didn't have plot armor, it was poorly thought of big the last 2-3 seasons were trash and rushed.
Joel is able to find meaning in his life again, but as I said that came at a cost. It seems like you want something with a happy Hollywood ending and that isn't this. It's great that Hollywood is treating things with more nuance and maturity. That's probably not for everyone though and it doesn't seem like it is for you.
You compare Studio Ghibli movies to Disney movies and it's the exact same. I don't see anyone complaining about nihilism in Grave of the Fireflies or Princess Mononoke though. More important than redemptive is contemplative and though provoking, but hey, that's just like my opinion man... It's funny that you quote Big Lebowski here and that movie sticks with you, but where exactly was the redemptive arc there? There was none at all...
March Climber
Member
Mibu no ookami
Again these are just my worries. I want you to be right, because otherwise it just results in a weaker show and in that case no one will have a good time here.