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[Copenap]

Keep in mind that part of the reason why Miracle Rogue currently is so popular is because it's really strong against control decks which in turn have gotten popular due to the Hunter nerf. It's just favored in the current meta though it might entirely be possible that it's a little op overall.

Isn't the charge part for Doomguards part of their battlecry?

Charge is not a battlecry.

 

[Super Nothing]

So when are they nerfing Miracle Rogue?

Preparation to 1 mana and/or 'The next spell you cast this turn costs (3) less, but not less than (1).'?
Remove Conceal from the game entirely?
Shadowstep to 1 mana or even 2?
Gadgetzan to 6 mana or legendary or lower health or 'This minion cannot enter stealth.' or 'When you cast a spell, deal 1 damage to this minion and draw a card.'?
Cold Blood to 2 mana?
Leeroy to 'Charge. This minion cannot be returned to your hand.'?

All of the above, perhaps?

What about changing conceal to only hide one minion for a turn? That way they couldn't hide both the Mana Addict and the Gadgetzan. You'd be able to kill at least one of them.

 

[frequency]

I see a really good player like Trump struggle a lot with Miracle. And they're always super strong in tournaments/competitive streams.

It's way worse than freeze + pyroblast Mage was but that got nerfed. While I like the idea of Miracle existing as variety, I don't see it being left alone based on Blizzard's history with nerfing things.

 

[Minsc]

I see a really good player like Trump struggle a lot with Miracle. And they're always super strong in tournaments/competitive streams.

It's way worse than freeze + pyroblast Mage was but that got nerfed. While I like the idea of Miracle existing as variety, I don't see it being left alone based on Blizzard's history with nerfing things.

The main problem with miracle is it using auctioneer as a turn 5, stealthed 4/4 creature that also draws ~7+ cards in that same turn (coin, conceal, 2x backstab, 2x preps, fan of blades, shiv, etc) which if you leave on the board (better hope you had 4 damage AOE in your hand) will likely draw another 7-10 cards next turn and hit for ~12 and re-stealth as well.

A 5 mana 4/4 creature that draws 10+ cards is broken in a game like this, simple as that. Even if the Miracle Rogue deck is a nice thing to exist in the game, being able to cycle 1/3 of your deck from a single card early in the game (we're not talking some legendary that hits turn 10) is not good.

 

[SephiZack]

Drafted Archmage Antonidas in Arena.

First Match against Priest.

I was loosing with 12 health vs his 30 health.
In my field I had Archmage + Archmage Antonidas + Sorcerer's Apprentice. He had only a Stranglethorn Tiger and couldn't destroy Antonidas, so he hit my hp to 7.

THEN I STARTED THROWING HIM FIREBALLS TO DEATH

I wish there was a chat to see his reaction

 

[zoukka]

Miracle is hated because it's the most skill intensive deck.

 

[Fragamemnon]

Miracle is hated because it's the most skill intensive deck.

Miracle is hated more I think becuase it gets a significant number of draws that the opponent simply can't interact with. It also gets some complete bricks as well, but people remember those less than they do the auctioneer+prep+eviscerate+conceal into a huge next turn much more than they do the sputtering draws where they don't draw Auctioneer.

Miracle is played a lot in the casted format for tournaments because of the format those tournaments use. In a longer round-robin tournament with a cut to elimination rounds, Miracle is good but not quite as good as the representation it has on the casted tournaments would lead you to believe.

 

[Aquavelvaman]

Miracle is very well represented in tournaments and in pretty much every part of the ladder, all the way up to the top 100 legend. It's as bad as hunter ever was, easily.

This literally happened while I was typing this reply. I mean, come on. Really. Come on.

 

[Minsc]

The size of those two stacks of cards left to draw for you and your opponent on the right really say it all.

But you got til your 9th turn at least. Maybe you should have dropped Tirion to have a taunter, or did he get sapped?

I was thinking Paladin would probably do well against Miracle too, considering that you have equality + wild pyro (or consecrate/avenging wrath), which is a pretty good auctioneer counter, though they can still cycle a good 10 cards before you even get a chance to clear the auctioneer unfortunately I guess.

 

[Aquavelvaman]

I dropped Tirion on 8. It got sapped. I used the thalnos and a spell to kill...something. I forgot. I had 25 hp and I killed both auctioneers so I thought I would be okay. He had a 3/1 dagger and 6 + 6 + 10 + 3 = gg

 

[ViviOggi]

I dropped Tirion on 8. It got sapped. I used the thalnos and a spell to kill...something. I forgot.

So why didn't you drop him again on 9

Speaking of Tirion, I just rage-bought three packs after going 4-3 with a really good Shaman deck...

 

[Aquavelvaman]

So why didn't you drop him again on 9

Then he would have had an alive auctioneer. I used bloodmage and avenging wrath to kill the second auctioneer.
I guess he was almost drawn out of cards anyway, but it felt like the right play at the time. If he ran 2 saps I would have died straight up. I guess it was a gamble that he didn't have a 22 damage combo without auctioneer available.

 

[ViviOggi]

Then he would have had an alive auctioneer. I used bloodmage and avenging wrath to kill the second auctioneer.

So what? He had already drawn most of his deck and Tirion is an absolute bitch to deal with as Miracle. You drop him again he either has the second Sap in hand, meaning he's likely not finishing you this turn after which you can play him a third time, or he doesn't and has to waste a bunch of cards to remove Tyrion, leaving you with Ashbringer and a 1/1 with spell damage --> you win by drawing 2 damage.

 

[Aquavelvaman]

I guess so. Next time I'll give it a shot.

 

[ViviOggi]

I mean it's still very possible that you lose here, having no board to speak of as Control Paladin vs Miracle on turn 9 is a tough spot to be in. It's just that dropping Tirion would have been the correct play here, and without replays it's impossible to assess whether or not you could have avoided the situation earlier. Against Miracle you're always on a timer and him not having 22 damage on turn 9 with what, seven cards left in his deck is a risky gamble to take.

 

[Water]

Ugh, I think I just broke a personal record for bad draft luck. Opened zero weapons and zero direct damage spells for a rogue deck, and minions were nowhere near as strong as would have been necessary to turn that failboat around. Completely unplayable. Naturally, faced the usual mages with 2x Frostbolt 2x Blizz 2x Flamestrike 1000x Taz'Dingo etc.

Why doesn't Arena at least make you draft five extra cards and throw five away to temper the RNG slightly?

 

[bjaelke]

I stole your arena luck, sorry.

 

[dk_]

So when are they nerfing Miracle Rogue?

Preparation to 1 mana and/or 'The next spell you cast this turn costs (3) less, but not less than (1).'?
Remove Conceal from the game entirely?
Shadowstep to 1 mana or even 2?
Gadgetzan to 6 mana or legendary or lower health or 'This minion cannot enter stealth.' or 'When you cast a spell, deal 1 damage to this minion and draw a card.'?
Cold Blood to 2 mana?
Leeroy to 'Charge. This minion cannot be returned to your hand.'?

All of the above, perhaps?

Expect a mail from Blizzard in the next 24 hours. Congrats for the new job! You're a genius!

 

[johnsmith]

Ugh, I think I just broke a personal record for bad draft luck. Opened zero weapons and zero direct damage spells for a rogue deck, and minions were nowhere near as strong as would have been necessary to turn that failboat around. Completely unplayable. Naturally, faced the usual mages with 2x Frostbolt 2x Blizz 2x Flamestrike 1000x Taz'Dingo etc.

Why doesn't Arena at least make you draft five extra cards and throw five away to temper the RNG slightly?

I got 9 wins with a deck like that also with rogue. I think I had 4 spells, no weapons.

 

[Violet_0]

screw miracle rogues, nerf shamans plz

o_o

yay, called it. Turn 5 "You face Jaraxxus, eredar lord of the Burning Legion!"

 

[AllGamer]

Mind Control can be so much fun

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I am having a blast with a low cost pokemon hunter deck.

It's suprising how synergistic it is, With all the buffers in there, even 1/1 creatures get scary. Those 1/1 with windfury are a menace!

 

[Aylinato]

Mind Control can be so much fun

Nice

 

[Violet_0]

Mind Control can be so much fun

that brings up bad memories

 

[scy]

Miracle is hated more I think becuase it gets a significant number of draws that the opponent simply can't interact with. It also gets some complete bricks as well, but people remember those less than they do the auctioneer+prep+eviscerate+conceal into a huge next turn much more than they do the sputtering draws where they don't draw Auctioneer.

Miracle is played a lot in the casted format for tournaments because of the format those tournaments use. In a longer round-robin tournament with a cut to elimination rounds, Miracle is good but not quite as good as the representation it has on the casted tournaments would lead you to believe.

To be honest, most parts of Miracle are relatively fine. The biggest issue it brings around is that you can't interact on their pivotal turns which leads into a relatively binary end-game scenario. It's mostly countering it in the turns before that and you don't really get to see how effective your early pressure was since you're typically just removing their card draws. There's more to it than that, sure, but that's the basic gist of it all.

I'd rather leave it to the meta to deal with Miracle Rogue since the only real ways to impact the deck would be rather destructive overall, though. It's not overwhelmingly strong enough to be dominating despite the meta game. It needs certain decks around to prey on and we're currently in a period of that. The loss of Hunters really allowed Miracle Rogue to take off.

 

[Onion_Relish]

Has it ever been explained why Nourish when played for ramping actually gives you two additional mana crystals to play with on the same turn but wild growth doesnt? Allowing wild growth to give the extra point would make turn 3 a bit more "bear"able if you catch my drift.

Also, I think the real reason people get upset about Miracle is that they don't want to run taunts for some strange reason. One or even two sunwalkers and miracle rogues are completely invalid.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

23/3 against a mage, my buzzard still alive and i end up doing a 23 damage turn to him.

Tales from rank 24 haha.

Guess this stuff is old news to you lol.

 

[Vio-Lence]

Miracle took off before the hunter nerf. The top 16 players on US/EU in season 1 all played miracle because it hard countered the dominant meta deck Lifecoach's Sunshine midrange hunter. I agree that they should let the meta sort itself out rather than nerf cards or classes. The UTH nerf killed hunters on the ladder. Not sure that was for the best overall.

 

[Anustart]

Is arena programmed to make your most played class super rare? I've done 16 arena runs total, 0 times given option for mage.

Gotta be some crazy odds to miss a 1/3 chance 16 times in a row.

 

[scy]

Miracle took off before the hunter nerf. The top 16 players on US/EU in season 1 all played miracle because it hard countered the dominant meta deck Lifecoach's Sunshine midrange hunter. I agree that they should let the meta sort itself out rather than nerf cards or classes. The UTH nerf killed hunters on the ladder. Not sure that was for the best overall.

Yeah, Miracle has been around for awhile, just always been a "just there" deck. It rose when Control Warrior and non-face Hunter were going massive, though, since it worked so well in that meta. And then Hunters got nerfed so the aggro Hunter option became less of a viable option against them so they got to become a de facto standard pick rather than a counter meta option.

Is arena programmed to make your most played class super rare? I've done 16 arena runs total, 0 times given option for mage.

No, nothing that I'm aware of.

 

[JesseZao]

Has it ever been explained why Nourish when played for ramping actually gives you two additional mana crystals to play with on the same turn but wild growth doesnt? Allowing wild growth to give the extra point would make turn 3 a bit more "bear"able if you catch my drift.

Also, I think the real reason people get upset about Miracle is that they don't want to run taunts for some strange reason. One or even two sunwalkers and miracle rogues are completely invalid.

Wild Growth says gain an empty mana crystal. You're spending five mana for nourish, so it's already borderline as is. It's very slow.

Miracle runs saps.

 

[Bizazedo]

Charge is not a battlecry.

Yeah, I didn't have an image in front of me. Charge is before the battlecry.

I swear there's some card where it is, though. Ugh memory.

 

[sploatee]

I'm trying to get better at this... What classes do you guys prefer? Do you find one that matches your plausible and then stick to it?

I tried that with Paladin but it just takes too long for me to get the cards I want in play. I think I could pull together a good Mage deck but I prefer a more defensive / control style of play. Any recommendations?

Thank you, wise folk

 

[JesseZao]

Yeah, I didn't have an image in front of me. Charge is before the battlecry.

I swear there's some card where it is, though. Ugh memory.

Charge is just a card effect. It's constant.

 

[scy]

The closest thing would be conditional "Gain Charge" triggers like Warsong Commander.

 

[daemissary]

Yeah, I didn't have an image in front of me. Charge is before the battlecry.

I swear there's some card where it is, though. Ugh memory.

Are you thinking of the Druid card that is a 4/4 and either comes into play with charge or +0/+2 and taunt? I'm assuming that effect is battlecry but I can't remember.

 

[Haly]

Miracle runs saps.

Two Saps, at most, and most of them will mulligan away Sap because it's a waste of a card before turn 5.

Onion is right, part of reason people are so frustrated with Miracle is that they don't want to "compromise" their deck in order to account for 50% of the field playing Miracle. There's maybe 2-3 posters in this thread who haven't complained about "netdecking" at some point. Well, here's an opportunity for players to show their deckbuilding acumen and fine tune their decks, not against a vacuum, but against a concrete meta one filled with Shockadins, Zoolocks and Miracle Rogues, all of which have a tough time dealing with Taunt.

This means Tazdingos, Arguses and Sunwalkers, to start.

 

[JesseZao]

Two Saps, at most, and most of them will mulligan away Sap because it's a waste of a card before turn 5.

They will draw it most likely when needed though. Getting a sunwalker sapped is a pretty big setback.

 

[scy]

Are you thinking of the Druid card that is a 4/4 and either comes into play with charge or +0/+2 and taunt? I'm assuming that effect is battlecry but I can't remember.

The form change is a Battlecry but the Charge on Cat form is just card text on it.

Two Saps, at most, and most of them will mulligan away Sap because it's a waste of a card before turn 5.

Sunwalker doesn't do much early game either :x

But, yeah, Taunts in general are the way to deal with Miracle Rogue but they still have tricks to deal with 1-2 Taunts that are dropped at the wrong time.

Well, here's an opportunity for players to show their deckbuilding acumen and fine tune their decks, not against a vacuum, but against a concrete meta one filled with Shockadins, Zoolocks and Miracle Rogues, all of which have a tough time dealing with Taunt.

But then the argument becomes that these decks are unfair!

 

[Bizazedo]

Charge is just a card effect. It's constant.

It's not in all cases. Example, the pirate that loses his charge when the weapon's gone. I think that's probably what I saw on the stream, some series of actions that caused the charge to disappear.

Either way, I did a search, there's none as a result of battle cries so far, so my original point was still wrong.

 

[Haly]

Sunwalker doesn't do much early game either :x

Not if you play ramp :>

 

[JesseZao]

It's not in all cases. Example, the pirate that loses his charge when the weapon's gone. I think that's probably what I saw on the stream, some series of actions that caused the charge to disappear.

Either way, I did a search, there's none as a result of battle cries so far, so my original point was still wrong.

I'm just saying it's a constant check. There's not a stack timing element besides the warsing interaction as scy mentioned. The pirate just constantly checks for a weapon. It will flash green when you equip a weapon even if you already attacked with it and then go back to exhausted no green state.

 

[Bizazedo]

I'm just saying it's a constant check. There's not a stack timing element besides the warsing interaction as scy mentioned. The pirate just constantly checks for a weapon. It will flash green when you equip a weapon even if you already attacked with it and then go back to exhausted no green state.

Sure, but I was talking about battlecries. That's where I was wrong, I mixed up what was probably something like the pirate with a battlecry.

If they eventually add a card where the battlecry is to give charge, something like Voidcaller would prevent the charge from going off.

Makes me wonder now if they will in the future.

 

[Violet_0]

I'm trying to get better at this... What classes do you guys prefer? Do you find one that matches your plausible and then stick to it?

I tried that with Paladin but it just takes too long for me to get the cards I want in play. I think I could pull together a good Mage deck but I prefer a more defensive / control style of play. Any recommendations?

Thank you, wise folk

Druid, if you have the cards. Shaman for mid-game board control, doesn't require all that many epics and legendaries. Control Warrior, but it's an expensive deck and honestly I don't think it's all that viable on the ladder in a Zoo/Miracle Rogue/Shaman meta

 

[scy]

Not if you play ramp :>

damn you came into this with a deck in mind

 

[JesseZao]

It's possible to make a card like that I suppose. Just seems like an unnecessary use. Right now, I could see a minion that gives charge to adjacent minions or a targeted minion, but it seems silly to have their charge behind a battlecry otherwise.

 

[Vio-Lence]

Druid is always a good bet. Token, watcher, ramp, and hybrids are all good decks for laddering.

 

[FStop7]

I got so wrecked on ladder yesterday. SO many lost stars. I could not put anything together and several of my opponents had near ideal card combos from the start. Not even mad about it because it was so absolute. I gave up after losing like 8 games in a row and played a bunch of Diablo.

 

[Violet_0]

Not if you play ramp :>

I play ramp druid with sunwalker, druids of claw, ancients of war and a mark of the wild and I still have a (slightly) negative win rate against rogue because sap is so powerful against it. Your best bet is to innervate a yeti turn 2 and hope they waste a sap on it

imo the best counter to miracle rogue are decks like shock paladin, aggro mage, weapon warrior and zoo that put pressure on the rogue from turn 1 onwards. I keep hearing freeze mage is supposedly quite good against it as well

 

[sploatee]

Druid, if you have the cards. Shaman for mid-game board control, doesn't require all that many epics and legendaries. Control Warrior, but it's an expensive deck and honestly I don't think it's all that viable on the ladder in a Zoo/Miracle Rogue/Shaman meta

Thanks. I'll be doing some deck building tonight.