Mobius and pet octopus
Member
lol, this rogue thought sapping cairne into a full hand wouldn't cause deathrattle. Dumbass should have sapped then used mukla cause that lost him the game easily.
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Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
- Thread starter Minsc
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the problem is that you will rarely see 4 minions on the board, unless you play against shaman or paladin. He's pretty much just an arena card, and not even a particularly strong pick imo
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
A 4cc getting only 3/3 that is highly situational would be unplayable. If it was raised to 4/4, then maybe I guess. I personally see that as a buff though.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm shamelessly abusing that glitch where you get infinite reroll on NA servers between 3-4pm est (just cause I know someone will ask when it works), and I am noticing that the quests really want me to play hunter and druid and will give me no rogue quests. =(
There must be some kind of internal cooldown after you finish one.
edit:
Oh, nevermind, just got a rogue one for 60g.
There must be some kind of internal cooldown after you finish one.
edit:
Oh, nevermind, just got a rogue one for 60g.
TBH why would anyone "know" deathrattle would activate in hand... Wtf.
hold on a second, let me 1-up you ^_^
Code:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/pzPPpDm.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/k6u0Bou.png[/IMG]not pictured: Argus Commander, Sunwalker, Kidnapper, Spiteful Smith, Ravenholdt Assassin
and this is my first 12-0, yay
yeah.... I don't think that rule is exactly obvious. How often does a rogue really get a chance to sap a deathrattle minion into an opponent's full hand?
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
So I met a Priest in Arena...
He learned the hard way that Auchenai Soulpriest + Lightwell is not such a good idea.
He learned the hard way that Auchenai Soulpriest + Lightwell is not such a good idea.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
It doesn't go to your hand, it dies. If you're running that type of deck, you should know that. Honestly, if you are aware that minions die when returned to a full hand, you should know that.
I've never even run that type of deck and I knew that.
That doesn't really make sense, how can a minion die if it's going back to your hand? A hand being too full causes new cards entering the hand to be "discarded" automatically, not "die".
Once Naxxarramas releases and everyone's running entire decks full of Deathrattle, and a Rogue plays Vanish, they're all going to trigger when the hand is too full?
I don't think that's intuitive at all, at least from a typical card game perspective. When creatures/summons leave the field, they typically stop behaving like creatures/summons. If this is intentional, then that means a creature retains its "creatureness" until it hits the hand, rather than at the moment of the Sap.
Once Naxxarramas releases and everyone's running entire decks full of Deathrattle, and a Rogue plays Vanish, they're all going to trigger when the hand is too full?
I don't think that's intuitive at all, at least from a typical card game perspective. When creatures/summons leave the field, they typically stop behaving like creatures/summons. If this is intentional, then that means a creature retains its "creatureness" until it hits the hand, rather than at the moment of the Sap.
It's one of those things that Hearthstone players never really think about (and even then it's definitely non-obvious), but trips up veteran CCG gamers because we're used to rules out the wazoo defining every single possible kind of card interaction. Hearthstone's fuzzy logic and casual rulestext can be pretty jarring, like with "ownership". Sap used to say "return an enemy minion to its owner's hand", and they changed it to "enemy's hand" somewhere down the road because "ownership" is a very important concept in the world of CCGs you don't just gloss over like that. Vanish still has the same problem though.
I mean, I get that they want to avoid the kind of stiff, academical language used MTG (as well as the verbosity) but it doesn't hurt to be clear about these words and concepts that have a long and rich history.
Looks like it's a known "bug" but they haven't said if its intended or not. Which is understandable, because such an interaction opens up a lot of design space regardless of which version is intended...
I mean, I get that they want to avoid the kind of stiff, academical language used MTG (as well as the verbosity) but it doesn't hurt to be clear about these words and concepts that have a long and rich history.
Looks like it's a known "bug" but they haven't said if its intended or not. Which is understandable, because such an interaction opens up a lot of design space regardless of which version is intended...
Minsc
Gold Member
Overdrawn (and discarded from hand aka soulfire discard cost) cards were never in play, minions on the board are. Death rattles can only be triggered from minions on the board. A minion being returned from the board to a full hand dies, so its death rattle triggers (since it was alive and on the board), a minion discarded from your hand does not trigger since it was never alive.
Another way to see it is a death rattle can't trigger form a card, only a minion. The rectangular things in your hand are cards. The circular things on the board are not cards any more, those are minions whose abilities are active.
That's my take anyway.
in my other arena run today I had an ooze ready for a turn 2 coin 5 stacks sword of justice and another one for his truesilver
and my 9 damage assassin's blade was also ooze'd ...
I know, but it conflicts with a lot of preexisting mental models about card games.
If you showed someone completely new to Hearthstone (but not necessarily to card games, like even Poker would count), the 10-card hand effect, they will interpret any action that puts cards into a full hand as leading to the "discarding" of that card. Because that's just common sense, that's what the animation is playing, that's what Blizzard wants you to think.
But a creature "going" back to the hand?
Well, when does it stop being a creature a become a card again? Any card game player would argue that the creature stops being creaturelike the moment it leaves play. "Creatureness" or "permanence" is typically a function of the zone the card is in. The journey from "in play" to "in hand" is a kind of instantaneous limbo where nothing happens unless some ability calls for it.
In Hearthstone, however, "creatureness" seems to be a property of the card itself. If it's been played at any time at all, then the card maybe has a bool called "IsMinion" set to true. The game engine seems to draw no meaningful distinction between "discard" and "death". They only have one "SendToGraveyard()" function, which activates "Deathrattle", which itself only looks at whether "IsMinion" is true, and not how it's being sent to the Graveyard. This is further muddled by the fact that Blizzard uses both "discard" and "destroy" in their rules text, implying there are two different "deaths" when there is really only, code-wise and rule-wise, one.
However, visually, what you saw was: Card goes back to hand -> hand is full -> discarded, so that primes you into thinking that it's a "discard" and not a "death. It would be different if the card, instead of going back to the hand, exploded on the field, which would invoke the idea of "death" and make the Deathrattle interaction more obvious (though still a fairly fringe rules case).
Personally, if I had coded Hearthstone, I would set "IsMinion" to false in response to being targeted by bounce, but this is because of my MTG background. Here, it seems more like an oversight, like when those Druid "subspells" counted as separate spells for a moment.
If you showed someone completely new to Hearthstone (but not necessarily to card games, like even Poker would count), the 10-card hand effect, they will interpret any action that puts cards into a full hand as leading to the "discarding" of that card. Because that's just common sense, that's what the animation is playing, that's what Blizzard wants you to think.
But a creature "going" back to the hand?
Well, when does it stop being a creature a become a card again? Any card game player would argue that the creature stops being creaturelike the moment it leaves play. "Creatureness" or "permanence" is typically a function of the zone the card is in. The journey from "in play" to "in hand" is a kind of instantaneous limbo where nothing happens unless some ability calls for it.
In Hearthstone, however, "creatureness" seems to be a property of the card itself. If it's been played at any time at all, then the card maybe has a bool called "IsMinion" set to true. The game engine seems to draw no meaningful distinction between "discard" and "death". They only have one "SendToGraveyard()" function, which activates "Deathrattle", which itself only looks at whether "IsMinion" is true, and not how it's being sent to the Graveyard. This is further muddled by the fact that Blizzard uses both "discard" and "destroy" in their rules text, implying there are two different "deaths" when there is really only, code-wise and rule-wise, one.
However, visually, what you saw was: Card goes back to hand -> hand is full -> discarded, so that primes you into thinking that it's a "discard" and not a "death. It would be different if the card, instead of going back to the hand, exploded on the field, which would invoke the idea of "death" and make the Deathrattle interaction more obvious (though still a fairly fringe rules case).
Personally, if I had coded Hearthstone, I would set "IsMinion" to false in response to being targeted by bounce, but this is because of my MTG background. Here, it seems more like an oversight, like when those Druid "subspells" counted as separate spells for a moment.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
It doesn't leave the field it just dies at the moment of sap.
Edit. I see minsc covered it pretty well.
Well okay I stand corrected.
Its counter freeze mage though and does quite well against handlocks.
I dunno, without drawing executes I'm fucked against Handlock.
shield slam and bgh should cover your early game.
It's a very difficult deck, you probably don't understand it well enough.
Alternatively, you're using the deck in the wrong place. The deck was designed for a very specific Ranked meta: the Miracle/Handlock/Ramp Druid gauntlet, which, iirc, exists somewhere between 5 and Legend. If you're not doing the 5 and Legend grind, you're just setting yourself up for failure because it's abysmal against aggro, which is dominant below 5.
So yeah, I don't think you understand this deck. It's a finely tuned machine designed to solve an extremely specific problem, not a generalized "good" deck that goes 50% against the field like Zoo.
Alternatively, you're using the deck in the wrong place. The deck was designed for a very specific Ranked meta: the Miracle/Handlock/Ramp Druid gauntlet, which, iirc, exists somewhere between 5 and Legend. If you're not doing the 5 and Legend grind, you're just setting yourself up for failure because it's abysmal against aggro, which is dominant below 5.
So yeah, I don't think you understand this deck. It's a finely tuned machine designed to solve an extremely specific problem, not a generalized "good" deck that goes 50% against the field like Zoo.
I made my own new paladin deck. It's centered around strong minions and such that also synergize in a threeway of doom.
My minions synergize well with my swords of justice. My secrets synergize well with my Swords of justice. My minions synergize well with my redemption secrets. The secrets even synergize with each other.
It's kinda hilarious when I play a Harvest golem. It gets buffed by sword of justice. Then the golem gets killed and my redemption secret brings it back, which buffs it with sword of justice again and sword of justice buffs the secondary golem. So now 1 golem turned into 4 buffed golems, and so on. And I got Ysera there just because.. it's my newest legendary and I'm trying it out a bit in my decks atm.
My minions synergize well with my swords of justice. My secrets synergize well with my Swords of justice. My minions synergize well with my redemption secrets. The secrets even synergize with each other.
It's kinda hilarious when I play a Harvest golem. It gets buffed by sword of justice. Then the golem gets killed and my redemption secret brings it back, which buffs it with sword of justice again and sword of justice buffs the secondary golem. So now 1 golem turned into 4 buffed golems, and so on. And I got Ysera there just because.. it's my newest legendary and I'm trying it out a bit in my decks atm.
That was me!
One of the best tips from advanced play I can give from ItsHafu who basically says the game is like telling a story. You try and predict the story your opponent is telling and whoever controls the flow of the narrative gets their happy ending
The more you play the more you get the shifts in meta and predict what your opponent has in store for you. Your play is already improved leaps and bounds though!
yeah, this is definitely the case. Only played a couple games in casual and had the misfortune to mostly run into freeze mages which seems to be nearly unwinable with this deck. The games against zoo were pretty bad as well
I normally don't play aggro decks so I don't have much experienced with this play style. When it works, though, this can be a pretty fun deck. I'll probably switch to miracle once I get those Preparations and VanCleef
Well thank you and Haly for dropping all the knowledge on me. I really need a second monitor for chat, or find a Twitch chat overlay plugin for OBS.
How are the SC2 GAF not on my friends list for hearthstone. Grrrrrrrrrrrr
Also what time for EST were u streaming
I can't afford a second monitor just yet and playing it windowed is awkward, at least Hearthstone is very alt-tab friendly.
I'm sorry I know. ;_;
You've had me on Steam forever, I think you never added me after Starcraft II switched over to Battletags. IceMarker#1172
I started streaming around 4am/7am EST and ended around 7am/10am EST.
I made my own new paladin deck. It's centered around strong minions and such that also synergize in a threeway of doom.
My minions synergize well with my swords of justice. My secrets synergize well with my Swords of justice. My minions synergize well with my redemption secrets. The secrets even synergize with each other.
It's kinda hilarious when I play a Harvest golem. It gets buffed by sword of justice. Then the golem gets killed and my redemption secret brings it back, which buffs it with sword of justice again and sword of justice buffs the secondary golem. So now 1 golem turned into 4 buffed golems, and so on. And I got Ysera there just because.. it's my newest legendary and I'm trying it out a bit in my decks atm.
I think it's generally a bad idea to have redemption proc on a noble sacrifice. You really don't get that much value out of reviving a 2/1.I'd really only do it when facing against zoo that doesn't have a voidwalker out, and only when you don't have any better plays.
I have a similar deck, but it tilts more towards the late game and the key minions to revive are sunwalkers. Getting redemption to proc on a sunwalker offers some extreme value. Your deck seems pretty aggressive with the leper gnomes and argent squires, but then you have late game minions like Defender of Argus, Ragnaros, and Ysera. I think your deck has a bit of an identity crisis in that regard.
Webspinner Rhino combo inc
Pretty underwhelming until we see the other cards in the set. Also depends on what pool the draw is from.
Edit: I guess if you think of it as a flare for creature draw, it's pretty good and isn't less relevant vs non-secret classes.
Edit2: Also, the way they set the cost and made the value from deathrattle, I think they finally felt sorry for all the shamans who would just auto-lose to hunters.
Pretty underwhelming until we see the other cards in the set. Also depends on what pool the draw is from.
Edit: I guess if you think of it as a flare for creature draw, it's pretty good and isn't less relevant vs non-secret classes.
Edit2: Also, the way they set the cost and made the value from deathrattle, I think they finally felt sorry for all the shamans who would just auto-lose to hunters.
Minsc
Gold Member
Yeah, wonder if you could play it turn 1, and trade it turn 2 and end up with a free savannah highmane turn 2, that would be pretty strong.
Even if it's like a delayed animal companion, people love their animal companion spells, getting 4 in a deck instead of 2 would still be pretty great.
Edit: Though I forgot it's not placing the minion on the board... hmm, that's going to hurt the usefulness a ton.
Even if it's like a delayed animal companion, people love their animal companion spells, getting 4 in a deck instead of 2 would still be pretty great.
Edit: Though I forgot it's not placing the minion on the board... hmm, that's going to hurt the usefulness a ton.
Not bad. I could see it being added just to cycle like flare or just for a card draw when you have 1 extra mana after playing the starving buzzard uth combo, or in those moments where you don't have the combo but start to cycle your beasts looking for an answer. Especially in midrange I could see it being pretty good.
that's not a secret
e: imagine all the possibilities
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thanks random reddit poster:
https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/479673737210392576
e: imagine all the possibilities
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thanks random reddit poster:
https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/479673737210392576
https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/479673920740532224
If there's a card to compare it to its probably loot hoarder, but where the draw is less impressive.
Minsc
Gold Member
that's not a secret
e: imagine all the possibilities
Reading more, consensus seems to be you'll get a random beast from the same set of choices that animal companion gives. So it won't actually thin your deck by drawing an extra card from it.
Edit:
I see your edit above now:
https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/479673737210392576
In that case, it will be damned amusing seeing King Krush added to your hand turn 1 or 2. Bring it on! Just need to find a way to play it before the game ends
Hearthhead gives 25 collectible beasts (which Webspinner can give you) and 13 uncollectible ones, so you missed one.
Maybe Snake from Snake Trap or Boar from Razorfen Hunter?Super Nothing
Member
I lost to a Control Warrior with Deathwing a week ago. He had already played Brawl, so I was stacking the board with minions. I had two fatties and some trash on the board when he threw out Deathwing, totally caught me off guard. I was playing a paladin, so I didn't have any removal, so I used Humility so that at least Deathwing couldn't do much damage after clearing my board, but then the guy just started drawing legendaries left and right. He put out a Ysera (which I silenced after he only got one card from it), used faceless manipulator on Ysera (12 health on a minion is rough for a Paladin to take down if you don't have Equality), and he stopped me from getting lethal with a Hogger. There were some others in there too, but it was a while ago.
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