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[Llyrwenne]

That is ridiculous.

If the effect had been a battlecry ( and thus only for one turn ), it would still have been an amazing card.
If the effect occurs on every friendly turn, the card is insane and probably would be auto-included in a ton of decks.
If the effect occurs on every turn, both enemy and friendly, the card is absolutely the most OP thing in the game.

You won't have to worry about efficiently trading at all; your dead minions come back anyway. Play this while you have a taunt up and the opponent can't touch you. Play Faceless Manipulator on it and your opponent can't do shit because they'll have to kill both in the same turn.

Freeze Mage : Kel'Thuzad + Mirror Image + Mirror Image = GG.

You think Molten Giant + Molten Giant + Defender of Argus is bad?

Molten Giant + Molten Giant + Sunfury Protector + Kel'Thuzad. You'll need to kill the taunted giants first, but if you then can't deal with another 8 health creature, those giants will come back at the end of the turn and your opponent will have 22 damage on the board.

Any deck that can flood the board is essentially getting a massive buff here.
Classes without decent removal spells won't stand a chance.

And what the hell are you going to do vs. that Rogue deck that plays stealth on it the next turn?
Maybe Priest will now get some more play with Dark Cultist and Mass Dispel, but then there's that 5 Mana 4/7 creature that they can't deal with.

I'm hoping it's fake ( and it might be because it's a blurry picture of a screen taken at an angle ).

 

[zoukka]

Kel'Thuzad seems ok, but people are overhyping it. You can play around the effect unlike with Rag and you won't necessarily gain anything by playing the card, you need conditions for it to work (a dead minion) which automatically makes it not that great.

 

[Haly]

For Kel to have as much impact as Rag, ideally, you'll have board presence the turn you slap him down. When your run your dudes into their dudes and they res at the end of turn, that's his equivalent of "8 damage".

Which mid-late decks can have board presence stick around turn 6-7?

Druid
Paladin
Shaman
Priest (maybe)

So, not bad, because these are all viable mid-late classes, but it's definitely situational. You won't be playing Kel onto an empty board, not unless you were very desperate. Just going by that, Rag is still superior.

And, of course, Miracle won't give one shit about Kel'thuzad. Bring your dudes back as many times as you want, she'll just Sap away the taunters and go for the face. It's not going to pressure her like Ragnaros does.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

It really is the type of card you need a significant board presence to really get a lot out of it. So something like turn 7 board clears could be pretty important. As a rogue I might need a second blade flurry to be capable of doing something like that. I already run 1 assassinate, 1 sap, so I can do something about the card itself. The main thing you should be afraid of is the player getting value out of it the turn it is played.

Hard removal and silence are gonna be important again imo. I think recently we've seen less focus on that due to combo decks.

I wonder if we're getting any taunts in the new cards. Maybe something like a harvest golem type minion with taunt but low stats.

edit:
The question I am wondering is if you silence + sacrifice your ragnaros, will it get a shot off if revived by kelthuzad that same turn.

 

[Aquavelvaman]

I just assumed all of those cards would be single-player only.

 

[bjaelke]

Rogue opened with coin -> novice engineer -> shadow step -> novice engineer. Interesting start that.

 

[Llyrwenne]

Kel'Thuzad seems ok, but people are overhyping it. You can play around the effect unlike with Rag and you won't necessarily gain anything by playing the card, you need conditions for it to work (a dead minion) which automatically makes it not that great.

If the enemy has a big threat on the board and you have to drive all your minions into it to kill it, you just play this card to gain a 6/8 creature, kill their biggest threat(s) and have all your minions be re-summoned at the end of your turn with full health ( and bonus deathrattle minions like Baine or Harvest ). Even if Thuzad is then immediately killed, you have gotten value out of him by both dealing with your opponent's threats ( maybe even killing several minons ) without losing your board and then soaking up some of his cards / remaining minions / removal. If you have a taunt up and your opponent can't deal with both the taunt and Kel'Thuzad in the same turn, you gain a massive advantage.

The card ( damage on board direct-able against specific enemies ) has the potential to be better than Ragnaros ( 8 damage to a random enemy ) in certain decks.

 

[Haly]

"If you already have board presence, but your opponents board presence is more resilient, and you play Kel, and you trade, then you come out ahead."

I hope you realize how silly this sounds. This is not the kind of stipulation you want to attach to your 8 mana singleton. You won't always have the luxury of spending 8 mana on one card. Sometimes you need to play a Swipe, or Peacekeeper, which means that on the turns where you CAN afford to dump 8 mana on a guy, you don't want to second guess yourself.

When evaluating cards, you should focus on the average scenario, not the perfectly aligned circumstantial total blowout.

 

[partyphone]

yeah that card seems fine. if you have a big board presence on turn 8 almost any big legendary is going to further seal your victory. and that card is weak to hex, polymorph and silence just like every other big win condition card.

would be funny to faceless it so they never die.

 

[zoukka]

yeah that card seems fine. if you have a big board presence on turn 8 almost any big legendary is going to further seal your victory. and that card is weak to hex, polymorph and silence just like every other big win condition card.

would be funny to faceless it so they never die.

You need a live Kel to bring back minions at the end of turn, so no they could be killed.

 

[ZealousD]

You need a live Kel to bring back minions at the end of turn, so no they could be killed.

You'd have to kill them both in the same turn, though. That could get pretty tough for two 8hp minions.

 

[Llyrwenne]

"If you already have board presence, but your opponents board presence is more resilient, and you play Kel, and you trade, then you come out ahead."

I hope you realize how silly this sounds. This is not the kind of stipulation you want to attach to your 8 mana singleton. You won't always have the luxury of spending 8 mana on one card. Sometimes you need to play a Swipe, or Peacekeeper, which means that on the turns where you CAN afford to dump 8 mana on a guy, you don't want to second guess yourself.

When evaluating cards, you should focus on the average scenario, not the perfectly aligned circumstantial total blowout.

I agree that my original knee-jerk 'that's OP!' was a wrong assessment, but I do think you are underselling the card. If you have two minions on the board and your opponent even just one, you'll get value out of Kel. If you have a taunt up and your opponent can't deal with Kel, that's a massive advantage. 'Having a taunt up' and 'having two minions on the board' are not rare situations.

And look at it this way; Leeroy was good, but by no means great in every deck in every situation, but then Miracle Rogue came along with Shadowstep + Shadowstep + Cold Blood + Cold Blood. Ragnaros is great, but less so when you play him on an empty board when the opponent still has a bunch of health and some weak minions on the board and only truly great when the RNG goes your way. You don't really want to play Alexstrasza when you have 30 health and your opponent 10 or less. Antonidas is fun, but if you can't play a spell with him, you're wasting your turn. Any single card is not always the best play in every situation in every deck versus every deck, that goes for the other cards in the game too. I focus on the best case scenario because that best case scenario is why the card will be played. I can see this card being amazing in decks built around building board presence, or even just Freeze Mage for the potential Kel + Mirror Image + Mirror Image.

 

[zoukka]

You'd have to kill them both in the same turn, though. That could get pretty tough for two 8hp minions.

Fair enough. But if your opponent couldn't deal with the first Kel at all, he would probably be dead with or without another one

I agree that my original knee-jerk 'that's OP!' was a wrong assessment, but I do think you are underselling the card. If you have two minions on the board and your opponent even just one, you'll get value out of Kel. If you have a taunt up and your opponent can't deal with Kel, that's a massive advantage. 'Having a taunt up' and 'having two minions on the board' are not rare situations.

You forgot "and the opponent can't deal with Kel"

 

[Llyrwenne]

Fair enough. But if your opponent couldn't deal with the first Kel at all, he would probably be dead with or without another one



You forgot "and the opponent can't deal with Kel"

Which is also a condition that applies on all other non-finisher cards. Gadgetzan Auctioneer is only great [ when your opponent can't deal with it ] and [ when played with a lot of spells ]. Ragnaros is only great [ when your opponent can't deal with it ] and [ when the RNG works in your favor ]. Molten Giant is only great [ when your opponent can't deal with it ] and [ when you are at low health to use two of them with a Taunt enabler ]. Etc.

 

[Sickbean]

LOLRag

 

[ZealousD]

Man. Got the win against a freeze mage. Adds me just to insult me in a manner so ridiculous that it's practically parody. I don't even know what goes on in peoples heads sometimes. Like do you think I'm actually going to be insulted if you say I have a tiny "PENOR"?

 

[Fragamemnon]

Not really feeling some of the new cards "spoiled" in these screencaps. KT's effect comes late and is largely irrelevant in the current burst metagame (if Blizzard moves us away from that, the he might be more relevant) , and one late silence so ruins the Thaddius pairing assuming you are running them as a big part of a control finisher (because you need solid deck cycling to get the value out of him).

The game is still lacking a resilient control finisher, i.e. a slow card like Ysera but one that is immune to silences. It's telling that the best 'control' finishers right now are leeroy combo kills.

 

[ZZMitch]

Bomber hath forsaken me!!

 

[veloxStrix]

Bomber hath forsaken me!!

You obviously haven't been thanking him enough.

 

[Super Nothing]

Man. Got the win against a freeze mage. Adds me just to insult me in a manner so ridiculous that it's practically parody. I don't even know what goes on in peoples heads sometimes. Like do you think I'm actually going to be insulted if you say I have a tiny "PENOR"?

I played a total asshole of a freeze mage the other day. Dude waited out the timer every turn and spammed the chat until I squelched him. He got me down to two health and played a secret. I had a Chillwind Yeti with one health left and a poisoned Assassin's Blade with one charge left. I drew my last card on that turn, so I was close to taking fatigue damage, as well. He only had five health, but if that secret was the second Ice Block, I was guaranteed to lose. I attacked his face with the Assassin's Blade and Ice Barrier triggered. 5 health + 8 armor - 5 damage from blade = 8 remaining life. I played an Ironbeak Owl on my own Yeti just to prime Cold Blood, cast Cold Blood, and GG.

 

[scy]

Feugen seems okay as an Injured Blademaster for +2 Mana and no setup, Stalagg is probably unusable at 4 Health; running both depends entirely on how strong Thaddius is to warrant two slots and hoping twice as hard that they don't get silenced. Kel'Thuzad is ... okay, I guess? Without a change in the meta to end-game board warfare, he's pretty much just an excessive cute trick or a win more card. Rebuying minions for 8 mana and a turn at the late game isn't that great with such a burst game plan in existence. I dunno. KT just seems like the kind of card that seems great but can't actually fit anywhere. On the bright side, he isn't BGH bait so there's that.

Maybe a Priest deck with Dark Cultist and Sunwalker / Cairne / Cabal Shadow Priests / etc. for a mid-to-late anti-control deck ... if a Control deck ever appears to dominate the meta that this style of deck would be playable against since it would auto lose to aggro. And KT would just be excessive at that point anyway.

That said, I want to test how he interacts with Force of Nature. I assume FoN end of turn kills themselves and then KT revives them and that ends the loop.

 

[zoukka]

Which is also a condition that applies on all other non-finisher cards. Gadgetzan Auctioneer is only great [ when your opponent can't deal with it ] and [ when played with a lot of spells ]. Ragnaros is only great [ when your opponent can't deal with it ] and [ when the RNG works in your favor ]. Molten Giant is only great [ when your opponent can't deal with it ] and [ when you are at low health to use two of them with a Taunt enabler ]. Etc.

Nope, the conditions needed for those cards are less restricted. Even if Rag eats a removal like most big monsters do, he will deal 8 to your opponent or remove a minion. You don't need any set up beyond not playing him if your opponent just played Onyxia.

I'm not saying Kel can't fit into any decks. I just don't see him as a strong card at the moment, but we can only speculate so much before getting to play with the cards. Who knows if there's a great synergy that warrants play somewhere.

 

[slayn]

Feugen/Stalagg could be cool with Shaman's rebirth. I've always felt shamans don't have a great 5 drop. Azure Drake is eehhhhh when it comes to the board control game plan. And since silencing the first one has no effect, rebirthing the second gives you guaranteed Thaddius plus potential Thaddius. That's assuming Thaddius is worth the effort and rebirth is an otherwise viable card.

I don't know how reliable rebirth is going to be in general though. The way hearthstone treats buffs is so bizarre that I honestly have no idea how rebirth is going to work. Does it get brought back based on the card or on the creature's current state? Will it be like crazed alchemist where it can make temporary buffs permanent? Will it bring back divine shield? and so forth.

Like if I consider the situation with an argent commander with popped bubble and rockbiter cast on it followed by rebirth I can see four possibilities:
a 'pure' argent commander with bubble
4/2 without bubble
permanent 7/2 stats
temporary 7/2 stats for a kind of 1 turn windfury value on rockbiter

And that's not even considering the permutations where the argent commander can't attack again because it might still be considered the same creature even though it died and came back.

 

[JesseZao]

Pretty sure it'll just be like the card was played again (minus battlecry).

 

[Professor Lich]

I don't see an issue with Stalagg. Given that Thaddius is strong, you'll just want him to die anyway. Sure silence is going to suck, but I think with so many other Death Rattles and effects going on with other things in Naxx, it'll be perfect. People will use their silences on the lower creatures, stopping things like Nerubian Egg or the Shade for instance, then you can drop your Stalaggs and Feugens and not worry about silences. If they don't use their silences early, then you'll be ahead with the other strong Death Rattle / Effects they have to deal with already. At least that's how I see it playing out in my head. Outside of Priests, people can only run up to four silences anyway. Though I suppose they could make a neutral card that "eats" death rattles or something. That would actually be pretty cool.

Edit : Forgot about polymorph and hex. We might even see a return of Mekkatorque. (Doubt it)

As for KT, I misread his text and thought it was something different. While a revive is pretty cool, I was hoping it was something different. What I saw was that he would summon a creature that would die after your next turn. For instance, you put him down and he summons an 8/8 or something. Then on your next turn, you can use that 8/8 but then it dies to be replaced by another. I put this together because someone said about him competing with Rag which made me think about eight damage or something. I just think it would be a cool ability and it makes sense because in the KT fight, he does summon big Nerubians.

 

[Ashodin]

Feugen seems okay as an Injured Blademaster for +2 Mana and no setup, Stalagg is probably unusable at 4 Health; running both depends entirely on how strong Thaddius is to warrant two slots and hoping twice as hard that they don't get silenced. Kel'Thuzad is ... okay, I guess? Without a change in the meta to end-game board warfare, he's pretty much just an excessive cute trick or a win more card. Rebuying minions for 8 mana and a turn at the late game isn't that great with such a burst game plan in existence. I dunno. KT just seems like the kind of card that seems great but can't actually fit anywhere. On the bright side, he isn't BGH bait so there's that.

Maybe a Priest deck with Dark Cultist and Sunwalker / Cairne / Cabal Shadow Priests / etc. for a mid-to-late anti-control deck ... if a Control deck ever appears to dominate the meta that this style of deck would be playable against since it would auto lose to aggro. And KT would just be excessive at that point anyway.

That said, I want to test how he interacts with Force of Nature. I assume FoN end of turn kills themselves and then KT revives them and that ends the loop.

I think force of amateur trees would still be alive until EOT next turn.

Also redemption with Stalagg or Feugen. Hehe

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I think force of amateur trees would still be alive until EOT next turn.

Also redemption with Stalagg or Feugen. Hehe

But then kelthuzad will revive them again since his text implies the end of every turn.

You could have "permanent" force of nature trees. Imagine the value out of knife juggler, 3 damage at the end of every turn lol.

 

[scy]

I think force of amateur trees would still be alive until EOT next turn.

Also redemption with Stalagg or Feugen. Hehe

Yeah, I assume they stick around with a special case exception. Unless this special case wasn't considered and then it infinite loops since all EoT triggers occur around the same time. Alternatively, the triggers are reversed (KT check and then the FoN cleanup) or it doesn't count the EoT cleanup as dying "during" your turn and you get no trees.

I don't see an issue with Stalagg. Given that Thaddius is strong, you'll just want him to die anyway.

"Unplayable" 7/4 is in regards to considering him without Thaddius value. If Thaddius is good then his 7/4 becomes a different story: He dies easily but dying is precisely what you want him to do. Burning a silence on an otherwise vanilla creature is fairly relevant as we start to add more and more minions worth silencing.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Yeah, I assume they stick around with a special case exception. Unless this special case wasn't considered and then it infinite loops since all EoT triggers occur around the same time. Alternatively, the triggers are reversed (KT check and then the FoN cleanup) or it doesn't count the EoT cleanup as dying "during" your turn and you get no trees.



"Unplayable" 7/4 is in regards to considering him without Thaddius value. If Thaddius is good then his 7/4 becomes a different story: He dies easily but dying is precisely what you want him to do. Burning a silence on an otherwise vanilla creature is fairly relevant as we start to add more and more minions worth silencing.

Use force of nature and make sure the trees die if KZ doesn't bring them back. IBut I guess if FON auto-dies after KZ brings them back, then nothing can be done about that.

If silence becomes a big thing, then decks with fewer silence-able targets will be a thing as well. Off the top of my head the only minions silenceable in my current deck are faerie dragon (who would), azure drake, cairne, ragnaros, and thalnos. I'm not even running DOA, loot hoarder, or even harvest golem (I am liking earthen ring farseer in this spot much more atm). So only cairne is the target I actually care about being silenced.

Come naxx, anubar ambusher will definitely find a spot, and a spot as a buffable minion since silencing it actually kinda helps me out in some scenarios. I might run the 4/4 3cc swords but I am not sure.

 

[Minsc]

"Unplayable" 7/4 is in regards to considering him without Thaddius value. If Thaddius is good then his 7/4 becomes a different story: He dies easily but dying is precisely what you want him to do. Burning a silence on an otherwise vanilla creature is fairly relevant as we start to add more and more minions worth silencing.

He'd still be an ok pick in arena I think, like that 7/6 guy but without the drawback against paladins.

 

[scy]

Use force of nature and make sure the trees die if KZ doesn't bring them back. IBut I guess if FON auto-dies after KZ brings them back, then nothing can be done about that.

It's really just a curiosity from a game mechanics view and not really a usability one. Considering FIFO priority on triggers, it might just flat out not work at all. Like, basically every possible outcome has some logic as to why it would work that way lol

He'd still be an ok pick in arena I think, like that 7/6 guy but without the drawback against paladins.

Legendary vs common though :x

 

[Professor Lich]

Another fun thing with KT could be with the Imp Master. If it kills itself from an imp, will it return the next turn to summon another imp and so on?

 

[Haly]

Sounds like a whole lot of "burden of knowledge".

Amirite guyz.

Amirite.

Imrite.

 

[Strider]

This poor, poor shockadin I just played. My opening hand was blood knight, consecration, consecration. He never stood a chance.

 

[Haly]

Coin + Armor Up!

Alright...

Oh, these are the "Tempo Warriors" someone mentioned.

Kind of a silly deck, although it has some surprising burst.

 

[Minsc]

Legendary vs common though :x

Oh, right. Horrible as a legendary spot pick I guess.

This poor, poor shockadin I just played. My opening hand was blood knight, consecration, consecration. He never stood a chance.

I pretty much run 2x argent squire and 2x blood knight in every deck because between shockadin and zoo and your own draws, you almost always get at least 1 shield to pop, usually 2.

 

[Majine]

Well that escalated quickly

 

[Aylinato]

Well that escalated quickly

How'd a rogue let that stay lol


Still not as fun as a 1 turn kill anything with 5+ health, +2+2 then double double and inner fire, but damn man

 

[daemissary]

Coin + Armor Up!

Alright...

Oh, these are the "Tempo Warriors" someone mentioned.

Kind of a silly deck, although it has some surprising burst.

I've had moderate success with that deck. I've never coined into armor though...that does seem pretty silly.

 

[Haly]

Yeah, clearly a net decker who has no idea how to play it.

 

[GeoGonzo]

Coin + Armor Up!

Alright...

Yesterday I saw Coin + Heroic Strike... to my face. Confusing, because he was not playing a rush deck after that... playing mindgames maybe?

 

[Haly]

Yesterday I saw Coin + Heroic Strike... to my face. Confusing, because he was not playing a rush deck after that... playing mindgames maybe?

"I'm playing Tempo Warrior, JK, it was Control"

 

[ZealousD]

Nope, the conditions needed for those cards are less restricted. Even if Rag eats a removal like most big monsters do, he will deal 8 to your opponent or remove a minion. You don't need any set up beyond not playing him if your opponent just played Onyxia.

I'm not saying Kel can't fit into any decks. I just don't see him as a strong card at the moment, but we can only speculate so much before getting to play with the cards. Who knows if there's a great synergy that warrants play somewhere.

The idea that Rag doesn't have conditions is laughable. If you hit a divine shield, that's bad. If you kill a 1/1, that's bad. There's plenty more board states that make him a bad play than just Onyxia.

 

[Bleeether]

So what happens if you have a Kel'Thuzad and force of nature?

Do they come back then die?

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

I hate them too. They are my Druid's kryptonite, and it sucks because I love playing Druid =(

Yep same here. Hence the bitching.

Also what's that annoying mega secret hunter deck I see a lot of these days?

Edit: stupid autocorrect

 

[johnsmith]

Realz is doing some great midrange streaming in legendary. The deck is definitely still viable. Instant lose vs zoo without exploding traps though.

 

[Officerrob]

Realz is doing some great midrange streaming in legendary. The deck is definitely still viable. Instant lose vs zoo without exploding traps though.

I tuned in just in time to see him get destroyed by Zoo

 

[zoukka]

The idea that Rag doesn't have conditions is laughable. If you hit a divine shield, that's bad. If you kill a 1/1, that's bad. There's plenty more board states that make him a bad play than just Onyxia.

But not as many as Kel, which was my point.

 

[Haly]

The idea that Rag doesn't have conditions is laughable. If you hit a divine shield, that's bad. If you kill a 1/1, that's bad. There's plenty more board states that make him a bad play than just Onyxia.

Those aren't conditions, he's still doing his job. Inefficiently, of course, but doing it.

Kel is literally overcosted without something else in play to trade. A Shaman wouldn't even be able to run his 0/2 totems into the other team. You need board presence, and your board presence needs to be able to attack.

 

[Badgerst3]

Just found this game. I suck but it's addicting as hell.

Got smoked in first arena as level 10 hunter.

Has the "curse of naxxramas" come our for ipad?

Can't find in App Store, google has not been my friend.