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Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
- Thread starter Minsc
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I have yet to be convinced by Anub'ar Ambusher. Maybe in Miracle, since you probably won't have any other minions out. 5/5 for 4 mana is amazing IF the deathrattle won't screw you up.
Oh, and Maexxna is a pretty effective replacement for Cairne in Control Warrior.
ShinNL
Member
Look, you among some others in this thread keep confusing 2 things. Meta =/= Deckbuilding. Just because something isn't popular right now doesn't mean that if a deck isn't build exactly a certain way, it isn't good. I've heard this "but but but, a million people have worked on these perfect decks!" several times as an argument for this, but... no. Concepts for a deck have always been from a few, and extremely few stray from it. Look at the story of the Shieldbearer and Doomguard, that says it all.
Then there are tons who think they did brilliant tweaks by swapping 2 cards. Whoop de doo. They did squat for the deckbuilding scene. And guess what decides the meta? The ones who actually make original decks. Two weeks ago netdeckers would never imagine the amount of Priests that are playing right now. But someone who happened to be popular just thought "hey, I'm gonna make a Priest deck that's good for the current meta", not "hey, I'm gonna make a deck that's in the current meta".
You can say that the meta currently doesn't have a lot of decks with a lot of Legendaries in it besides Control Warrior. But you cannot say only that specific class has use for multiple Legendaries. What makes you think a Cairne or Ragnaros has more synergy in that deck than say a Control Paladin?
But nice backpedaling.
"people don't know how to construct good decks"
-into-
"it's not that other decks loaded with legendaries are necessarily bad it's just that they're probably not optimal"
That tone change.
Sure.
I started out with just 1 auctioneer, but found myself running out of cards too much. Now it almost never happens. Had dark irons in for a while, but they didn't seem to do enough so that was what I dumped for the auctioneer and al'akir. You're hopefully going to be missing turn 4 anyway with a feral spirit play.
I'd say it's 50-50 with miracle. Crushes zoo if you draw a lightning storm in the first 5 turns, but does decently even if you don't, depending on how good of a start the zoo has. I think every mage match I've had has been a win. Quite favored against druid as long as you get stuff on the board early. Hunter is tough, but I've been doing a lot better after I stopped playing around unleash. Just have to eat it, because you won't win by not playing stuff. And then priest is what I can almost never beat. Pryo comboes, holy nova, circle heal flamestrike, stealing my lightning storms. I got a full board bloodlust off once and still lost.
Oh, handlock is difficult too, especially since I always mulligan for zoo. I'm starting to think the best strategy is to not attack them at all as I can often handle everything until the molten giant, then it's just too much even when played for high mana.Conversely, deck building is more than putting 30 cards together and trying it out for a few games which is what a lot of times the discussion tries to center itself around. Just because a list of 30 cards wins some games does not mean it's ideal. It doesn't even mean that it's an actual good list of cards; you can win games with bad decks and you can lose games with good decks. Figuring out all of that is the bulk of deck building, not just putting a list together; being able to tell when the list itself is why it's winning games and not just outplaying opponents (or when the list is causing problems and not just your misplays, etc.).
Also, I have no idea what posts you're referring to that mistake "meta" and "deckbuilding." Maybe I give posts more credit than you do but I'd like to think most people get that "X is a bad card" refers to now and not forever (unless otherwise indicated, anyway). Card strength is relative to the current meta which in turn dictates archetype options. "Viability" then is more in reference to aiming for the best winrate vs the rest of the field since that's what Ranked grinding boils down to. And then if this isn't for Ranked, a lot of the details matter a lot less.
Not quite true. The meta is dictated primarily by the day-to-day playing. Which is pretty much the realm of individual tweaks. What shifts the meta massively will be either a new deck or of it the small tweaking here and there exposes something for a different deck to take position. There's been very few "new" decks in the past few months, usually just reiterations of older decks or straight revivals of old decks.
Besides that, "Deck building" has this broad meaning attached to it. Was Freeze Mage coming back just a revival of it? Or was it a new deck? I mean, it was a ~26-28 card mirror of the old deck. Was Malygod Rogue a new deck or just Miracle Rogue with more spell burn? What's the line for the variations of Ramp Druid to be new decks? Zoo is old Board Control Warlock with a lower curve, is that really a new deck or a tweak?
I feel like this is you just reading into it how you want to. The original post in question is complaining about seeing 5+ Legendaries in every deck. Quite frankly, the most common situation will either be the common Legendary heavy Control lists or just random lists with a lot in them. It's not necessarily about "only Control Warrior would ever do that" but more "If you're facing off against it consistently, it's probably a bunch of Control Warrior because that's the most common deck to do that right now." This doesn't exclude niche decks from the equation but those certainly will not be the majority case.
Besides that, I find it funny you take the "only Warrior would do that" here to literally mean "only Warrior would ever do that" yet want to make the point earlier that card assessment is a fluid thing dependent on the meta, other card choices, or even just bad assessments.
Also, I'm not really sure why you keep feeling the need to use "netdecker" as some kind of derogatory term. Sure, you can have some pride in making your own decks but to pretty much try to constantly insult people in the thread for not making their own decks seems a bit much.
Sometime Wednesday.
Tuesday, shouldn't it be? EU might be Wednesday but since they released simultaneously last time I don't see why Blizz wouldn't keep it that way.
Minsc
Gold Member
Really needs to be played alongside a houndmaster if you're Hunter vs Priest (of course then there's mind control, maybe doesn't even really work at all vs Priest)... either way, probably never going to repeat that mistake lol.
There is basically little reason to play Ambusher when Yeti exists. For the same mana cost you get a minion with one more attack and a deathrattle that is most definitely more of a downside. King Mukla is just better value for aggressive rogue decks
Maexxna is pretty bad as well at 6 mana, imo. Hardly sees play in constructed
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Miracle is going to have either Farseer/SI:7 or nothing out on turn 4, and getting those battlecries back is often preferable. It can fuck you over in some situations though and is probably unplayable in Backspace/Tempo.
Like Maexxna, who I can see doing really well in Midrange Hunter variants, it's not an auto-include but a situational card.
Like Maexxna, who I can see doing really well in Midrange Hunter variants, it's not an auto-include but a situational card.
I'm not sure buffs are the right way to handle Maexxna. If you want a beefy threatening creature I would just take a Boulderfist Ogre over Maexxna any day. The value of Maexxna is that it is a difficult to remove 6cc that can trade up for an 8/9cc.
If you see a lot of giants, thaddius, and 4/12 legendaries I think that is when Maexxna will shine.
If I'm facing down another 6cc like Cairne and I have Ysera in hand, I would probably just slam Ysera. But if I'm staring down Maexxna I have to deal with her first.
If you see a lot of giants, thaddius, and 4/12 legendaries I think that is when Maexxna will shine.
If I'm facing down another 6cc like Cairne and I have Ysera in hand, I would probably just slam Ysera. But if I'm staring down Maexxna I have to deal with her first.
partyphone
Banned
she just seems kinda underwhelming for a 6 drop. and it's completely abysmal in the priest matchup. I spent all day yesterday playing mid-range hunter and I just don't know what I'd cut for her. Don't really want to get rid of highmanes and I don't need another 6 drop. I still waffle between 2 kodos, 2 rhinos or 1 kodo, 1 rhino so maybe I'll try her in for one of those. could be okay. especially since buzzard/unleash occupies turn 5 a lot more now.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
I think with the addition of so many low attack/potentially high value cards in Naxx we're going to see a rise in Kodo usage. Maex, Baron, possibly annoying stoneskin, and deathlord are all stompable minions, and other deathrattlers that could become even more fashionable are the tried and true thalnos and harvest golem. Egg being out there does make playing a kodo scary though.
LossLess009
Member
Yeah, exactly what I did yesterday in Arena.
5 enemy minions on the floor with less than 2 attack, one being an egg, I figured odds were pretty much on my side, right? Wrong.
Situation was desperate anyway, so I can't really blame RNG for losing.
Sounds like the most inconsistent deck, however. Realistically, it would just be better to have a good minion in the spot rather than a buff package that ... doesn't actually accomplish much.
Yup. The one thing holding it back is that Naxx actually did add a lot of 5cc minions for competition. Going to actually be a hard slot to fill for decks just because of the amount of good options.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Maybe. A ramped out Maexxna with MotW is at least consistent damage that guaranteed kills anything sent at her. The issue is the setup above is a pretty large portion of the deck (33%+) and it doesn't seem on paper to have the kind of consistency desired. Beyond that, it doesn't really have a huge extra impact on the game. For the mana spent, I'd honestly rather push out a Spectral Knight early. It denies spell removal to deal with it and forces multiple turns of bad trades if it gets out early enough. It also isn't vulnerable to Silence, something we kind of expect to see more of soon anyway.
Ooze + Mark will probably be something we'll see, though, as kind of a pseudo-return to a Watcher Druid package. Just don't see the room for making an entire deck built around Taunted Deathtouch instead of just a 4-card mini package (less since these Druid decks already run MotW). I don't think we'll see Mark of Nature though.
Now everyone can sort of enjoy Druid of the Claw Bear!
In theory, it'll put extra emphasis on board control around the Turn 5/6 area. Being up on the board and getting to slam a Spectral Knight is going to be a hard thing to deal with. Humorously, it may end up making Maexxna or Boulderfist Ogre options just to have ways to deal with it.
In theory, it'll put extra emphasis on board control around the Turn 5/6 area. Being up on the board and getting to slam a Spectral Knight is going to be a hard thing to deal with. Humorously, it may end up making Maexxna or Boulderfist Ogre options just to have ways to deal with it.
Minsc
Gold Member
Loatheb requires you getting a card you have 1-of (by turn 6 or so) vs. a card they have 2-of, and only delays them a turn... maybe that lets you win, maybe it doesn't, it isn't guaranteed. Sludge Belcher has sap written all over it.
Though if everyone runs Loatheb (as most likely everyone will, even Zoo maybe), that might be enough to strongly discourage miracle rogue and cause the deck to evolve slightly.
A lot of miracles I've seen only run 1 sap. If miracle is still a dominant force, 2x sludge belcher is 7hp worth of taunt they have to kill twice. And its not a mostly useless card in other matchups the way mogushan is.
And Loatheb doesn't necessarily have to counter an auctioneer turn. As soon as you have even an ounce of board control (like 1 creature alive) I think Loatheb can allow you to snowball the game. Or late game being able to delay leeroy shadowstep even a single turn is a big deal.
edit: plus sap isn't that great against belcher. Sap is great against other 5-6 drops like Azure/cairne because if you replay it the rogue doesn't care. They're just going to ignore it and kill you. But a replayed belcher still has to be dealth with by 2 separate damage sources.
If nothing else, it's a good anti-Auctioneer tech. Auctioneer + Conceal getting Loatheb'd does buy you the Conceal turn ... though it still means Auctioneer will probably draw up to three cards so hard to say if it's "good enough." And then it gets really awkward if that 6 mana is put towards Conceal again, potentially accomplishing nothing.
Besides that, though, it denies spell finishes too if you can just be in a decent spot on board and can fudge their combat math a bit with it. That'll probably be the best generic use of it. Just deny a Shadowstep Leeroy use or down a Cold Blood or Eviscerate or whatever. Plus, it doubles up and does the same for vs Druid, vs Mage, etc.
Edit: basically all that up there too
Professor Lich
Member
I would be surprised if the Deathlord, or whatever card it is that summons a minion on death, sort of changes Miracle rogue up. Though, I guess I'm thinking more of the older Miracle rogue that only had 3-6 minions in it. The more tempo one today won't be effected as much since it has way more minions.
That, or I'm just crazy.
Edit: That, or double or, get an Auctioneer out way early and can conceal it. It'll be interesting.
That, or I'm just crazy.
Edit: That, or double or, get an Auctioneer out way early and can conceal it. It'll be interesting.
I'd rather play against miracle and zoo all day than play against freeze Mage. Literally solitaire.
I could be wrong but I think a lot of the time a deathlord pulling an auctioneer would be good because odds are the rogue already used their mana to kill your deathlord and now have an auctioneer on board they can't use.
Of course you need to be able to do 4 damage asap or you're fucked.
edit: but then there is always prep I guess. Who knows. And of course something like 15-20% of the time deathlord will pull leeroy and then you laugh.
Of course you need to be able to do 4 damage asap or you're fucked.
edit: but then there is always prep I guess. Who knows. And of course something like 15-20% of the time deathlord will pull leeroy and then you laugh.
Professor Lich
Member
Yeah, it'll be something you have to deal with on a game by game basis. However, the more I think about it, the less I like it.
Two is too much imo.
Miracle Rogue is a style of deck that uses 2 auctioneers plus a handful of cheap spells to play 4-8 cards in a single turn and draw 4-8 cards off of the auctioneer. Basically the rogue does very little except cast removal while they use the above combo to draw their entire deck and then they kill you with leeroy + double shadow step + cold blood/sinister strike/whatever for 18-30 damage all at once (pull a miracle).
It is not uncommon for a miracle rogue deck to be in fatigue while you've only drawn half your deck.
Miracle Priest probably refers to a Priest who somehow steals an auctioneer from a rogue.
Amaz did the same thing this morning to another priest. It never stops being hilarious.
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