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Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
- Thread starter Minsc
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Roll away lad....
Something as simple as the chess.com mobile app has a really strong ai.
It should really not be that hard to make it stronger.
Making the fights unfair puzzles that become stupid easy with the right deck is just lazy.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I don't think it is laziness that prompted this design. Some of the boss fights are meant to be skill fights. But others are meant to be puzzles.
Chess... is not only solvable, but already has been solved by mathematicians and computer scientists, building off decades of decades of research and experimentation. Do you think modern chess AIs were made in a day? Christ, no. And chess is a lot simpler because there's no variance whatsoever, information is perfect, players get only one single move per turn, and board states can be quantified quickly and easily.
Furthermore, I highly doubt the Hearthstone team, which is still very small, is employing a dedicated AI programmer with experience developing AI for card games. I don't even know if these kinds of specialists exist. For a small development team, creating a challenging puzzle like the current Heroics is far more cost-effective than hiring an expensive specialist to create an advanced AI for Hearthstone, because the game is supposed to be played by humans. Sinking time, money and manpower into creating a sophisticated AI that's not going to generate massive returns makes no sense whatsoever.
Furthermore, I highly doubt the Hearthstone team, which is still very small, is employing a dedicated AI programmer with experience developing AI for card games. I don't even know if these kinds of specialists exist. For a small development team, creating a challenging puzzle like the current Heroics is far more cost-effective than hiring an expensive specialist to create an advanced AI for Hearthstone, because the game is supposed to be played by humans. Sinking time, money and manpower into creating a sophisticated AI that's not going to generate massive returns makes no sense whatsoever.
Keeping the Hearthstone team small also spells bad choice by blizzard.
Hearthstone is hugely popular. Blizzard sticking to a small team nonetheless is showing in the massive amount of bugs with every release of something new in this game. And ofc it is relevant since you used that as a excuse for the design of the heroic encounters.
20 minutes more on NA server, I pre-bought it with that clock trick so hopefully I can play it immediately.
Contrary to popular belief, bugs don't just disappear by throwing more people onto a project. New hires need to be trained, usually by the people already on the project, slowing down development, which leads to complaints from the userbase (you). Furthermore, their inexperience with the systems involved can lead to even more bugs, resulting in more complaints from users (you, again).
And who says they're not trying to expand? They actually have three job postings right now:
I highly doubt there is a lack of people who want to work for Blizzard, which means they just haven't found the right candidates to fill these spots.
And who says they're not trying to expand? They actually have three job postings right now:
I highly doubt there is a lack of people who want to work for Blizzard, which means they just haven't found the right candidates to fill these spots.
1 private guy makes a extremely hard and intelligent ai for the game Race for the Galaxy (quiet alot more complex than hearthstone). But blizzard cannot because of small team...
I don't mind the first adventure bosses released having more of a puzzle mechanic. Hearthstone is a very small team, they aren't going to spend a ton of money and resources (mainly time) to code the perfect AI to own you. I'd much rather have them focusing on creating cards, which I know they are already doing. WoW raids were always kind of puzzle anyways, had to figure out the fights through actually doing them. Taking a few tries to beat a heroic boss in hearthstone seems very fair. Maybe they should make it like wow so after every 5 tries you lose 100g to repairs and pots lol.
Gothik is interesting, almost got me on normal.
Gaf keeps going down for me... Normal and challenges seem much easier than last week, cleared them 30 mins total only, just the heroics left.
Gothik is interesting, almost got me on normal.
Gaf keeps going down for me... Normal and challenges seem much easier than last week, cleared them 30 mins total only, just the heroics left.
Officerrob
Banned
Doesn't work on heroic
hypersheep
Member
Yeah but apparently equality is a no-no for heroic on that boss. I found the bosses not too difficult, but from looking at some streamers playing, the heroic bosses look to be insane.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Turns out oddly enough spectral knight isn't bad vs zoo because it cannot be removed by doomguard or soulfire.
edit:
lol check this board state out, it was so sweet I forgot to attack with dagger... not that it could ever matter
full hp priest? no problem.
edit:
lol check this board state out, it was so sweet I forgot to attack with dagger... not that it could ever matter
full hp priest? no problem.
I'm trying to beat the heroic version of him atm. Hardest boss in the game so far imo.
I'm having... some... success with either a mage deck or a hunter deck. Atm the hunter deck seems strongest. But even then I need ALL the planets to align to beat him. The lowest I got him was 15 health and then I didn't get the cards I needed for 2 turns and I lost.
My hunter deck has these secrets: Freezing trap, snipe and misdirection.
I don't have any beasts, other than a snaketrap. The snaketrap is there just to have minions ready for my "give taunt"-minions. I also have minions with shield for extra strong taunt-wall when combined with "give taunt"-minions. Got 2 tracking-cards for when I need more taunts or weapon-remover-minions, of which I have ooze and the 1/2 pirates.
It works ok but I need to have everything ready every turn. If I take 1 hit to the face of the weapon, I can't win due to his evil "target-at-will" 4-damage hero ability.
My mage deck has freezes and freeze-minions and weapon-removal minions and taunts and such. Works ok but seems slightly less dependable than the hunter deck so far.
I'm tempted to try a paladin deck for the "eye for an eye" secrets, lots of shields and taunts. But I would need the planets to align with such a deck as well so I dunno if it would be much better.
Just finished all the heroics for Military Wing, Four Horsemen was the hardest IMHO because I was using a Priest and it was super RNG-dependent, not only did I need to draw the right cards but I also needed to rely on him not having the right secrets and stuff. For example even if I Pained one of the Horsemen on turn 2, if he put up the Avenge secret on turn 1 then it's pretty much GG right there unless I also had Silence in my hand.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Spectral knight vs mage... lol, fireball to face instead of removing the knight and gg.
He was playing a weird deck. Leper gnomes signaled aggro but then he played a senjin... then another leper gnome and loot hoarder... then a turn 6 sunwalker which got BK'd...
It seemed like he was having a really tough time with 2x faerie dragons cause he decided to flamestrike just those 2 after the BK play. Then spectral knight. I bet he is like OMG I can't remove these minions with direct damage wtf do I do now!?
Meanwhile I am sitting with lethal assuming my minion survives, with a ironbeak owl in case of taunt and an eviscerate to finish off.
Yeah I got it second try. First click was like F U no wing fail. But then reclicked and worked instantly almost.
He was playing a weird deck. Leper gnomes signaled aggro but then he played a senjin... then another leper gnome and loot hoarder... then a turn 6 sunwalker which got BK'd...
It seemed like he was having a really tough time with 2x faerie dragons cause he decided to flamestrike just those 2 after the BK play. Then spectral knight. I bet he is like OMG I can't remove these minions with direct damage wtf do I do now!?
Meanwhile I am sitting with lethal assuming my minion survives, with a ironbeak owl in case of taunt and an eviscerate to finish off.
Yeah I got it second try. First click was like F U no wing fail. But then reclicked and worked instantly almost.
Letterbomb
Banned
Nothing but fucking zoo decks today. This is getting fucking ridiculous.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I wish I faced more Zoo. I played a midrange lock that just wrecked me with that new voidcaller card. He got a turn 4 or 5 doomguard for free. That is absolutely nuts.
I kinda walked into a little bit though.
I only faced 1 deck I would call zoo and beat that. But I also faced like 3 priests, won 2 and lost 1 I think. I faced a hunter that I screwed up playing anubar ambusher over loatheb which cost me the game by a hair. 2 paladins now, one control or midrange and 1 aggro. I won both those.
I'm still pretty high in rank, haven't played much this week. So maybe that is why I am not seeing zoo but I suspect it isn't the reason.
edit:
OMFG on that note this zoolock I am facing now just got wrecked. What a moron. He even silenced my anubar ambusher for some reason? And that deathlord he played on an empty field got me loatheb out for free which is probably my worst card vs zoolock anyway. Then he defender of argus preparing for my black knight. Just wrecking zoolocks - like normal.
Letterbomb
Banned
Zoolock deck just raped the fuck outta me and won by turn 4. THAT is fucking nuts. All the whining on this deck is 100% justified. Communities complain for a reason.
You COULD insert your credit card and pay for it with real money, that way you can spend your gold on arenas or packs instead.
Minsc
Gold Member
While the AI does suck pretty bad, I think the way they went is ideal, and it would have been a lot more interesting if they brought in 2v2 or 2v1 to the PVE (even you if just had an AI).
I find nothing wrong in banning certain cards (it would be nice if you were told ahead of time though, but it's not really a huge deal) to make the challenges trickier. Just using a well made deck instead with better AI would take little more than the perfect starting hand and some luck, even when played by the worst players with poor cards. Since people are perfectly willing to endlessly restart single player content till they get the perfect opening hand, the scales start tipped heavily in your favor as for all you know the AI could have gotten all 4+ cards.
To be fair, chess has a finite number of pieces (and moves), while Hearthstone has a much-less finite number of pieces (and moves), doubly so when you account for all the crazy combos that need to be programmed in and that in Chess you can only move a single piece per turn (with small exceptions), while in Hearthstone you can move and play a dozen pieces per turn, and again combos allow for multiple pieces played together to have altered significance. Chess is extremely mathematical and AI is often done via brute force (iirc), calculating nearly every possible move for every iteration, and doing it for X turns in to the future and weighing out which paths produce the ideal results. Though I could be mistaken, that's my understanding.
Again, the AI is inexcusably bad in Hearthstone, even something like 1998s MtG: Shandalar game had an AI (for a more complex game too) that was much, much better.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
They complain for a lot of bad reasons too. Like, how did zoolock beat you by turn 4? He must have had the best hand possible and you must have had the worst hand possible.
You can't look at the outliers and say a deck is OP because it is too good when everything falls into place, including their opponents hand falling out of place.
Sorry, but I think you're way off on this and especially about communities complaining for a reason. The community has complained about many decks that are perfectly fine, including reynad's burn warrior deck which eventually fell out of the meta. They've complained about priests during periods where most players rank priest bottom three.
I don't think the community complaining is accurate at all on gauging what the game's problems are. Just for example, while people were complaining non-stop about hunter 2cc uth, hunter already fell out of favor. Granted, the nerf was probably necessary. Next, while people were complaining about miracle rogue non-stop, druids were catching on much harder with FON+SR and miracle rogue was falling out of the meta in a big way due to other reasons as well. Before naxx came out people were complaining about webspinner being weak, not they're complaining it is too good in midrange! You just cannot follow the community's cry mode about cards and decks.
Zoo is strong-ish, right now, but by no means too strong that bliz needs to nerf it. Plus, my tempo rogue deck just cuts it in ribbons and I am cutting control decks down pretty hard too.
Control Warrior mirror, I'm in full control of the board when his yolo Sylvanas pulls a clutch 25% on my Rag he hasn't been able to deal with for three turns at that point. Guy taunts immediately, I kill it and play Grommash + Task a turn later, putting him at 9 HP. He brawls, but my Grommash survives the 33%, kid immediately starts spamming greetings, lets his turn run out and plays a single Whirlwind the second before the rope burns out. Didn't accept my friend request either.
Divine justice, motherfucker.
Divine justice, motherfucker.
call_kotaku
Member
Having new cards come out every week is hard to get used to. Totally forgot spectral knight and reincarnate were in the game.
Spectral Knight was better than I expected. That 6 health is actually quite substantial because you can't ignore it and let your AOE turn mop it up like with faerie dragons.
Reincarnate seems really underwhelming, it doesn't seem to do anything that Shamans can't already do, though I suppose using it on chargers isn't particularly inspired and there will be more interesting applications down the line. It does synergize well with the Crusher setup, though.
Now to grind gold til I can get into the wing
Spectral Knight was better than I expected. That 6 health is actually quite substantial because you can't ignore it and let your AOE turn mop it up like with faerie dragons.
Reincarnate seems really underwhelming, it doesn't seem to do anything that Shamans can't already do, though I suppose using it on chargers isn't particularly inspired and there will be more interesting applications down the line. It does synergize well with the Crusher setup, though.
Now to grind gold til I can get into the wing
NameGenerated
Who paid you to grab Dr. Pavel?
Shoved a bunch of the new cards into a Shaman deck. It's pretty hilarious so far.
All aboard the Baine Train!
All aboard the Baine Train!
Minsc
Gold Member
How is such a diverse 2 mana spell so underwhelming to people? To me it seems like one of the best cards.
It won't be long I think until people start complaining it's OP in control games where they play some big minion on turn 8, and the Shaman players puts Sylvanas + Reincarnate, stealing it for 8 mana, while also leaving the 5/5 Sylvanas alive and well on the board, ready to take the next thing they drop (potentially with just a second Reincarnate, leaving it alive for stealing a 3rd minion).
paperboywriter
Member
I have 1900 dust and don't know what to do with it
How did you get those? Faceless into Rivendare and Reincarnate? Gotta say it's pretty weird if heroic Gothik plays the two legendaries given that Thaddius is the next quarter's boss.
Officerrob
Banned
I have thought from the beginning that people are overlooking reincarnate. Someone will put together a deck that will make people pull their hair out with that card
Pyros_Eien
Member
He doesn't play them on heroic so not sure how he got them. I've gotten him to fatigure in heroic(not too hard since he draws twice per turn every turn) and haven't seen either of the legendaries spawning Thaddius. Maybe only happens in normal?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I am pretty happy I chose to put ironbeak owl in my deck, seeing how crazy even nerubian egg can get with baron rivendare.
Shaman class challenge.
call_kotaku
Member
I think that would depend on how the meta changes with the addition of these new deathrattle-based cards, because it seems like the current meta is very burst-centric and reincarnate ends up being a 2-mana shadowstep that has other situational uses. If it has good synergies with something like a crusher deck based around ancestral spirit and cards like sylvanas and cairne then it would be very interesting, but I think that would depend a lot on what other decks become strong.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
warlock.
That voidcaller is pretty good from the one time I have seen him in constructed. The warlocked coined him out and got a doomguard when it died...
Minsc
Gold Member
A turn 3 Illidan could also be pretty rough to deal with (and if you don't it'll really spiral out of control fast), assuming you just spent your mana on removing the voidcaller, which is now starting to seem like a horrible idea, I think voidcaller is one creature you're probably best off just ignoring until you can silence it or have a card to destroy anything it could summon.
Against that heroic Naxx fight, I had some awful luck... either there'd be three of those things on the board, or they'd summon another voidcaller. and then that one would summon a Doom Guard. Took a few tries before I got it to just summon a Flame Imp.
mysteriousmage09
Member
Fuck that stupid ass Gothik fight. Finally done after 2 hours of "lol didn't get right card! concede!". My god Blizz, how low do you have to sink to make something hard? That wasn't hard, it was fuck all annoying and the amount of rules they have to break to give us a "challenge" is ridiculous. To me, it's them admitting the team on this game are talentless hacks and that this game is casual trash that has skill second behind mass amounts of luck so here's these "fuck rules" matches that make 90% of the decks you would usually use impossible to do and queue fuck loads of conceding because the RNG for these "challenging heroics" is 10 steps above any other game on the market.
4 horseman was stupidly easy as a priest. Just bring shadow word pain and silences and laugh as they bop you with their fake swords they got at Spencer's.
4 horseman was stupidly easy as a priest. Just bring shadow word pain and silences and laugh as they bop you with their fake swords they got at Spencer's.
Pyros_Eien
Member
Oh makes sense forgot about that, one shot it and didn't draw them so didn't know they were there.
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