Wow, someone mentioned deck thinning in this thread while evaluating a card!
Amazing.
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Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
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Wow, someone mentioned deck thinning in this thread while evaluating a card!
Amazing.
Why would you ever consider zombie chow a dead card? If you care about board control, 1 mana 2/3 is always solid. If my opponent's at 10 life I don't feel bad at all dropping 2 chows onto the board.
In zoo, the momentum gained from them will be worth more than 10 life in future turns. In priest it gives you another creature to drop early game or midgame next to a dark cultist or late game as auchenai combo.
I think its the first 1 drop I've actually wanted to use in shaman as well.
In zoo, the momentum gained from them will be worth more than 10 life in future turns. In priest it gives you another creature to drop early game or midgame next to a dark cultist or late game as auchenai combo.
I think its the first 1 drop I've actually wanted to use in shaman as well.
Can't tell if this is amazement at the use of deck thinning itself or the fact that Hearthstone has a card for deck thinning.
partyphone
Banned
: (
I'm amazed at your level of condescension.
Wow... Nice to know how you really feel about us.
I think Deathlord might be too risky of an Arena pick, I won two games in my run because of opponents Deathlords. One game I Kodo'd it. It only pulled a Knife Juggler but it's still a 3 minion swing. The other game, I was able to hit my opponents turn 3 Deathlord with a BoK'd minion and it pulled a Tiger. There was no coming back after that.
Hey this is a compliment!
It's a vast improvement to "༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIFF ZOO NERFS ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ".
You generally play off curve at 10 mana. At that stage I'd much much rather have a rivercroc than a zombie chow. Plus it plays right into AOEs. You just put down two zombies chows and just got flamestriked or lightning storm, grats on giving your opponent 10hp.
Professor Lich
Member
I'm glad my idea to change out my Fire Elementals for Lava Bursts has been working out rather well. Great for removal and finisher when I need it, and no one else uses it so no one else expects it!
partyphone
Banned
several times I've coined kodo on a deathlord and gotten highmane. was pretty great.
MonorailCat
Member
that feeling when 3 mage secrets just disappear after your flare for surprise lethal.
stupid mages with their stupid iceblocks.
Edit: and zoo is still meta-cancer. Have to play decks I don't have fun with just to get to legend so I can finally play something different
stupid mages with their stupid iceblocks.
Edit: and zoo is still meta-cancer. Have to play decks I don't have fun with just to get to legend so I can finally play something different
I don't think I'll dust it. I mained Warlock for years in WoW, and downed heroic Jarraxxus when it was current content. There's a soft spot there.
Maybe this means I should start saving dust to build a handlock deck. I've had to burn dust to build decks to get through heroics in Naxx, but after next week it should start building back up.
Highmane is only 1 total stat more than Cairne in an arguably worse distribution. It's fine.
Professor Lich
Member
Thinking about it, don't most beasts have lesser stats because they have the beast class or whatever? Just a curious thought.
Some neutrals do but class minions generally tend to have slightly better stats.
Not really? The only beast cards that are objectively inferior to non-beasts at the same level are raptor and crocolisk, I believe.
Zoo is not a control deck...
You can build aggro zoo but by default it really is. Zoo's default game plan is not to kill you quickly. It's game plan is to aggressively control the board with an oppressive force of minions until you've exhausted all your resources. At which point they snowball because the warlock hero power is better than yours once you both are top decking.
A lot of people get stuck with zoo at lower ranks because they don't understand this, try to play things like leeroy and leper gnome, and are playing the deck wrong.
This is why zombie chow is a good card in zoo while dancing swords is not
Well, it is, because you're controlling the board through your low cost efficient trades. I mean it doesn't play like other control decks but it is control.
Deathrattle summons tend to get priced better when it comes to factoring their cost.
It is by definition an aggro-control deck. That's how it was originally designed and every iteration of it gets faster at the board control angle. It has never been a strict aggro deck. It plays aggressively, yes, but that's simply due to Hearthstone's attacker advantaged nature that lets you control the board by being the aggressor.
KingKiller
Neo Member
That's three times now I've managed to fatigue a Priest to death. Some people really don't know when to stop using the clerics.
13 points from being 6 mana
1 point from being Rare
1 point from being a Class card
-11 points from stats
-1 point from being a Beast
-3 points from Deathrattle effect
I guess it kind of balances out. Although you'll recall that Argent Commander was "fair" at 4/3 but was nerfed anyway because 4/3 turned out to be too strong. I think Highmane could also use a tweak as long as the power is moved to some other playable class card in the process.
Because it has minions to do it all. That's why I say it works out to be a control archetype due to Hearthstone being attacker advantaged. It would be a rush deck that overwhelms in, say, Magic where the board state is more in the hands of the defender.
Vire
Member
When Zoo first started out it was mostly about the board control. However this meta is too fast for that now and with the new naxx cards Zoo has gotten faster. I don't know if it really is all about board control anymore.
The purpose of the deck was to have cheap minions that could 2 for 1 trade with everything leaving your guys on the board to go face after they have nothing left. The problem is everyone is running board clears now so you need to play more aggressively.
The purpose of the deck was to have cheap minions that could 2 for 1 trade with everything leaving your guys on the board to go face after they have nothing left. The problem is everyone is running board clears now so you need to play more aggressively.
It's still about board control but it overwhelms earlier / faster now than before. It doesn't have to develop into resilient minions but can just from the start put on pressure and kill things played while developing more aggression.
Though, yeah, it's getting to the point that it clears the board simply because it has to.
ShinNL
Member
Such a bad time to play Shaman. Face damage everywhere.
*switches to Paladin*
Yep. no Fireball in my face or Alexstrasza will get me down, stupid Mage. From 6 HP to ending the game with 0 vs 17 (27 if it wasn't for the BM Pyroblast on my lethal turn).
I brew everything you witch!
Shaman needs healing.
*switches to Paladin*
Yep. no Fireball in my face or Alexstrasza will get me down, stupid Mage. From 6 HP to ending the game with 0 vs 17 (27 if it wasn't for the BM Pyroblast on my lethal turn).
I brew everything you witch!
Shaman needs healing.
Letterbomb
Banned
How do you guys feel about Gladiator's Longbow as a card in general? I love its use in board control but feel that 7 mana is way, way high of a cost for a 2 turned/10 damage weapon. Garrosh for comparison gets 7+6+5+4+3+2+1 damage for a 7 cost weapon. Valeera gets 12 damage at minimum for her 5 cost weapon. Neither have immunity but still.
If Longbow was 6 mana, I'd be happy. Would have a spot in my deck without hesitation.
If Longbow was 6 mana, I'd be happy. Would have a spot in my deck without hesitation.
I think, at this point, the terms "Aggro" and "Control" should be redefined for Hearthstone's particular mechanics. It just leads to confusion when half the playerbase are using Magic terminology and Magic theorycraft and applying that to Hearthstone 1:1. Few decks can avoid giving up board control entirely, especially with the slower game pace, and in the future I think every aggressive deck, which is what people think of when they say "aggro" will be gunning for board control, if only to keep tempo.
Rather than call every fast, cheap deck that still likes to trade "Zoo", or "board control", just recontextualize "Aggro" to mean "Fast" and "Control" to mean "Slow". And Midrange is just that, halfway between "Aggro" and "Control".
Rather than call every fast, cheap deck that still likes to trade "Zoo", or "board control", just recontextualize "Aggro" to mean "Fast" and "Control" to mean "Slow". And Midrange is just that, halfway between "Aggro" and "Control".
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Highmane is >>>> cairne by all accounts, including stat distribution.
Being a beast, you can potentially draw 3 cards off playing him when in conjunction with buzzard. The higher 6 attack is >>>> preferable to 4. Only against a single class is 4 preferable.
And if I am not completely delirious due to lack of sleep, the expected value off of highmane is 8 damage while cairne is 4. 6 damage + 1 hit from a hyena. Dealing with multiple spawns is more difficult therefore more likely to get a hit in. And in terms of hp... Cairne has 10 and highmane has 9. So 8/9 vs 4/10. That is how I would tally up the stats. 17 vs 14.
Not to mention beast properties. It isn't even close. Highmane is super cairne and you get 2 of them for much more consistent draw.
I've used them both a lot and highmane is very overbudget while cairne is... acceptable... sometimes.
Yeah, I mean, call it aggro-control if necessary.
You wouldn't really call a midrange deck an aggro deck just because it is capable of playing aggressively which midrange is meant to be capable of anyway. Usually more like a slow-aggro that attempts to play strong minions on curve rather than going for face and ignoring value.
Zoolock is just a low curve control deck that is capable of playing aggressively due to its low curve. Fast-control or aggro control or even low curve control is suitable names imo. Still a control deck unless it really isn't a zoolock deck and is just aggro lock.
Yeah, Hearthstone discussions are plagued by inconsistent definitions of the terms used. One person uses "control" to mean "a deck focused on late-game strength, which attempts to stall against faster decks"; another uses it to mean "a deck which prioritizes clearing an opponent's board over hitting their face." And yes, 90% of Hearthstone decks qualify as "control" using the second definition. (Personally, I refer to that as a "board control" deck.)
On a related note, for months now people have been calling every single Warlock deck "Zoo," with the exception of HandLock. It doesn't matter if you're running midrange Warlock with 8 spells and a curve focused on 4- to 6-mana drops; still Zoo. Or if you're running a Leper Gnome/Arcane Golem/Power Overwhelming deck; still Zoo. Makes it a bit difficult to have a coherent discussion about Warlock decks.
Professor Lich
Member
Alright, so I did this for fun but it might of come over as BM, what do you guys think? A guy had Fugen down and Stalagg already died, so I reincarnated it so Thaddius would spawn, but I already had lethal on the board. I hope the guy had fun at least.
lawlohwhat
Banned
Last night I had someone kodo mine and it summoned a war golem that swung the game his way but there were several games before where I was glad to have him in my hand. One game in particular I was able to heal him with earthen ring farseer and then sheep him (had 3 polymorph in the deck) once he was at 2hp. It's still a very strong 3 drop imo.
Pretty much. Due to how Hearthstone plays, all decks are pretty much going to want to force for board control in some capacity. Zoo, then, is just a deck focused on doing it at the very start of the game. Maybe we can shift the terminology a bit but who knows what that will take.
Letterbomb
Banned
Guess I'll give up on trying to complete my quests today. Seven Zoolocks in a row. Can't win, won't bother.
What deck are you running that you can't beat zoo?
Letterbomb
Banned
Any of my decks. Doesn't matter which class. =/
I don't have legendaries/rares/epics to make solid decks. I mostly use basic cards and can't do shit about zoolock.
I don't have legendaries/rares/epics to make solid decks. I mostly use basic cards and can't do shit about zoolock.
You don't use epics and legendaries to punish zoo. You probably have the cards you need, you just aren't using them.
Professor Lich
Member
Yeah, I haven't done it myself, but it's probably one of my favorite combos now. Shame Velen doesn't work with minion abilities, or Priests would be rocking out right now.
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