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Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
- Thread starter Minsc
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Can only happen in arena, but it sucks. Constructed if you want it a bit more predictable.
Spells that tend to 2-1 tend to have big costs and can't hit face. And spells that can hit face give less value. A fireball is 4 mana for 6 damage while a arcanite reaper is 5 mana for 2x5 damage. A fiery war axe is 2 for 3x2 damage while frostbolt is 2 for 3 damage+freeze (of course there is the health cost but a lot of the time that can be ignored/healed). And spells that buff minions are countered by silence.
dorkimoe
Gold Member
Next game a Mage had a 10 damage fireball? What the fuck.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The health cost is not as negligible as you suggest. You can easily lose due to using your weapon as removal instead of minions.
I am not saying weapons shouldn't have a counter. I am saying that ooze is just too good of a counter as it is. And there are 2 other cards that damage/destroy weapons, as well as taunts blocking face.
Even if ooze only reduced durability by 1, it would still be a very strong counter vs weapons. It is like black knight except instead of killing a taunt, you kill a weapon and pay much less than black knight.
DyslexicAlucard
Member
Honestly, you seem to be on quite the crusade here. Ooze is perfectly fine. Like has been said, Ooze usually comes after a weapon has already killed something, so the weapon already got its value back.
Plus, it IS a big deal if you hold onto an Ooze. You say it's "a good tool," but it's also a gambit that could lose you vital early tempo and, as a result, the game.
Plus, Ooze is valuable against Warrior, Paladin and Rogue, but it's a generic 3/2 vs. Priest, Druid, Mage, Warlock , with Hunter and Shaman being a toss-up. In 4-6 cases, almost any other 2CC minion is better. For instance, a Knife Juggler and Sunfury Protector will almost always have value against any class. So in order to make Ooze a viable pick, it has to be very strong in certain situations to make it viable against said KJ and SP.
Just my 2c.
Yes, but a weapon will likely already have gotten some value by the time an Ooze hits. A taunt very likely won't have. Plus, a 4/5 body is way more useful than a 3/2. A Yeti alongside destroying a taunt that most likely won't have done anything yet is WAY stronger than destroying a weapon that already got value. Hence the extra CC.
Orange gem on the card. Every card has a gold version
Got to love that free iPad expert pack:
I had a theory after seeing everyone post legendary cards from their iPad pack from the soft launch... and it hasn't been broken yet.
I got an angry chicken ,
I think blizzard hates me
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think the card is over budget. I don't see why that makes me on a crusade. It is an opinion I've had and never lost after playing the game for 6+ months. I brought it up here and a few people responded and I responded to them. I don't see how that makes me on a crusade to respond to people's own opinion on the subject.
You're saying nothing that dissuades my opinion nor nothing new that I haven't either thought of myself and/or heard from other people. I am suggesting that its text be reduced to reducing durability by 1. That only makes the card slightly weaker, but still very strong, in situations versus certain weapons and weapon strategies.
DyslexicAlucard
Member
No, it doesn't make it "slightly weaker." It cripples it. It makes it near-useless vs Assassin's Blade, Doomhammer, Stormforged Axe, Light's Justice, Sword of Justice, Ashbringer, and Blood Fury. It would also mean that essentially every weapon in the game would be nearly guaranteed to get value, and would also mean that people would fearlessly play a weapon onto to empty board. It would greatly diminish its value and would be a MASSIVE swing in the meta.
Also, please respond to points next time instead of going, "Eh, I'm not convinced" and going on a tangent about one word in the multi-paragraph argument. Anyone can do that, and it's kind of annoying to write an argument out and have it waved away because, "meh."
If you've responded to exactly what I've said before, then at least quote it or something,
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I personally don't think that is an issue nor does it justify having ooze destroy a weapon completely. And I can't say with certainty what ooze should do, I just believe destroying the entire weapon to be a problem.
You claimed I am on a crusade... I am not actually going to bother responding fully to that kind of antagonistic post.
Additionally, it would force Harrison Jones for an actual "Destroy Weapon" effect, effectively making it a Legendary only option. Which is just poor design.
Then let's put it this way: -1 Durability is an unplayable effect because it doesn't do enough. Why gut a card because ... ? Ooze isn't gamebreaking in any real way short of maybe it shouldn't be a 3/2.
Edit: And, again, Ooze wasn't really relevant for a long period of time. It's risen in popularity (alongside Harrison) due to the rise of weapons as a critical part of deck strategies. And now those weapons are kind of rotating out. This is what powerful tech cards are supposed to do, really.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
DyslexicAlucard
Member
"Honestly, you seem to be on quite the crusade here" is too antagonizing to respond to? Dude, you must be leading a pretty sheltered life on the interweb!
Seems to me like you just don't want to address my argument and are looking for an out. It's the "I'm offended, so your argument is invalid" card.
Well, of course it does. It removes any ability for the card to make reasonable tempo plays against non-weapon classes and pushes it into the niche of anti-weapon tech only. Which is just as big of a deal as removing the ability to destroy a weapon. That change would make double Deadly Assassin's Blade from Miracle Rogue basically guaranteed 21 Damage. Sure, -1 Durability isn't a big deal when you're facing Rogue weapons, Fiery War Axe, etc. X/2 weapons since it's functionally the same but now it makes all the mid-to-end game weaponry essentially uncounterable.
I just think that it's an unnecessary change to a card that is already rather niche and only currently finding a place.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I did respond. I said your opinion didn't change my mind. I am willing to engage in conversation but if you're going to bring this attitude I am not willing to bother.
I am very well acquainted with flame bait and I am not going to respond to it.
Well I don't know how they should change it. Perhaps it should reduce durability by 2 or reduce attack instead of durability? Not sure. They probably won't change it, but my opinion still will be that they should.
edit:
I am okay with a destroy weapon card, but 2 cc is too cheap for that text to be that strong I think.
DyslexicAlucard
Member
Flame bait? What? I wrote paragraphs of arguments after a one-off comment that I honestly didn't even think about. It more or less meant, "Hmm, he's talking about this a lot." It was not meant as a giant opening volley. I'm sorry you took it that way; that wasn't the intent.
But, again, saying "your opinion didn't change my mind" is... the least-convincing counter-argument you can give. Hell, it's not even a counter-argument -- it's the lack of one.
I'm aware that my arguments can be blunt; it's the way I debate. But I feel that if you go back, you will see that nothing is out-and-out insulting you in any fathomable way. I always attack the arguments, not the person. The only possible exception is the "crusade" comment which, as I have previously stated, wasn't really meant as an attack.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Well, looking over what you said a second time, my response doesn't really change. My position is that it is too strong as a 2cc. The text imo is too strong for a 2cc. On the other hand, it fits pretty well with harrison, him being a 5cc.
Why should ooze be such a huge tempo card as well as being a huge value card? My position is that it shouldn't be. I am not concrete on how the card should be dealt with, if it is to be dealt with.
If ooze was a 4cc like 4/4 or 4/3 with the same text it would be more balanced imo. Using a 2cc to negate a 5cc and get a minion... it is like the strength of a black knight but at 2cc.
Why should ooze be such a huge tempo card as well as being a huge value card? My position is that it shouldn't be. I am not concrete on how the card should be dealt with, if it is to be dealt with.
If ooze was a 4cc like 4/4 or 4/3 with the same text it would be more balanced imo. Using a 2cc to negate a 5cc and get a minion... it is like the strength of a black knight but at 2cc.
Token druid is so damn good, 10-1 versus hunter, and I managed to go toe to toe with a zoo until we both only had 6 cards left. I managed to keep up with card draw even though he got amazing value with a two no discard soulfires and a no discard doomguard.
I also put a BGH into my token druid deck instead of a loot hoarder, and even though it's a dead card 90% of the time, me and this druid filled our boards and then he went face and played Deathwing, and then I just BGH'd it. Feels good!
I also put a BGH into my token druid deck instead of a loot hoarder, and even though it's a dead card 90% of the time, me and this druid filled our boards and then he went face and played Deathwing, and then I just BGH'd it. Feels good!
Ooze is situational and a hard counter to cards that some heroes don't even have at all. It's not op or anything. And that said in HS, there are no hard counters to weapons since they can be used right away so you will always get some value out of them
slightconfuse
Banned
Some people love taking their time just to play flame strike
slightconfuse
Banned
Hunters mark needs a nerd at least Make it cost 1mana like humility
slightconfuse
Banned
I hate playing against preist and all their bs cards
could play zoo. it's a pretty decent match up against druids. or just go with handlock. handlock only really gets hard countered by the aggressive hunter decks. it can hold its own against the lifecoach/kolento version.
control warrior is pretty scarce between 5-1, but that's probably because of all the zoo.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I do very well against druids, of all sorts, with my midrange rogue deck. Against warrior though, much more difficult. It usually comes down to brawl, which sucks. I did change my deck a bit to compensate but I haven't been playing it.
Even my low curve BC rogue deck I built tonight is doing pretty well against druids. They don't seem to run starfall too much anymore.
All I've been running is either life coach hunter, druids or zoo. I feel like if they can get a good wrath + keeper of the grove when I play zoo I basically lose the game, it sucks. I'm trying life coach right now.
reynad's most recent variant is really good against druids. the only way they can really come back is with an innervate swipe. wrath and keeper is simply too slow to keep up
I'll look into it, I could always use more Zoos.
it's on his site. just take out mukla and black knight for two elven archers and it's solid. idk why he put them in but i tried them and they work wonders.
call_kotaku
Member
Injured blademaster and ancestral healing is a surprisingly potent combination, just got me to 11 wins in arena (the 2 fire elementals helped). Not as good as it is in a Priest deck but I could see it being useful in constructed.
DyslexicAlucard
Member
I'm a big big fan of Turn 1 Northshire Cleric, Turn 2 coin, Injured Blademaster and Circle of Healing. You have a 1/3 with a great ability, a 4/7 and an extra card on Turn 2. Heck, if your opponent played something one Turn 1 that your cleric and run into, you have TWO extra cards as well.
Edit: I see you referenced this already. Sorry, I'm tired XD.
I dunno what I did there....
Grats on the 12-0.
DyslexicAlucard
Member
Harrison has major card draw potential and a much bigger body, so it's not in the same league. And as has been said, if you nerf Ooze, it only makes Harrison more powerful and necessary. That's poor design.
It's not a big tempo card. It's meant to reverse the giant tempo swing a weapon can bring, ie: two minions for the price of one card. By itself, it doesn't give a lot.
It's only "good value" against certain enemies, and even then it has a secondary pre-requisite that they have a weapon in hand as well. When an ability needs that many planets to align, it should powerful to offset how situational it is.
And, again, most weapons will have already replaced themselves in value by the time an Ooze is used anyway. If they haven't been used, well, that's the empty-board weapon gambit.
If it was 4cc, it wouldn't counter the early weapons as well.
Plus, it's not countering a full 5cc card by the time it drops. 95% of the time, the weapon will have been used already, so its already got about half its value and one-for-oned. If anything, it's a 2CC countering maybe a 2.5cc etc.
Also, by the same token, a 3 mana Hex counters a 9 mana Malygos etc.. That's just the necessary nature of counter cards. If all counters were the same cost as what they're countering, then there'd be zero risk to playing the initial big cards -- because, at worst, they'd spend just as much to get rid of it as you did casting it, so there's no real risk involved.
And I've already argued (quite well, IMO
) why it's not as valuable as a Black Knight: TBK is much stronger and tougher, plus it kills something that won't have already used up part of its value, like a weapon likely will have.Priest and mage are the two weakest classes in the game, if you lost to them then it might be extremely bad luck/ bad deck.
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