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Hearthstone |OT3| Preparing for the Ball of Spiders Meta
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Nah that would make him crap just like Tinkmaster. The idea is to lower his power, not remove him from the competitive field.
Bombs damage range lowered is the way to go.
call_kotaku
Member
bombs can hit any target besides dr.boom
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
We're still begging for dr. boom nerfs?
I'm not sure if nerfing dr. boom is a good thing or necessary. If you deal with the main body well enough it is pretty gutted. So I say make it a 7/5 if needed. Reducing the boom bot damage doesn't seem terrible, but does make bgh - an already strong counter - even stronger. So I think making it weaker in a way that makes bgh less necessary is the way to go and you certainly wouldn't do both.
If it is OP it is just a tad OP. And only blizzard has the statistics to decide whether it is broken enough to be changed or not, and apparently not.
I'm not sure if nerfing dr. boom is a good thing or necessary. If you deal with the main body well enough it is pretty gutted. So I say make it a 7/5 if needed. Reducing the boom bot damage doesn't seem terrible, but does make bgh - an already strong counter - even stronger. So I think making it weaker in a way that makes bgh less necessary is the way to go and you certainly wouldn't do both.
If it is OP it is just a tad OP. And only blizzard has the statistics to decide whether it is broken enough to be changed or not, and apparently not.
Gully State
Member
Made this post a few days ago. Hoping for an answer to my question as I kinda want to stop relying so much on Hearth Arena to draft.
BGH isn't even a clean counter to Dr Balanced. Even if you nerfed max damage range of Bots from 4 to 3, the two bots could still kill the BGH and another 3-4 health minion on board getting two for one value. That's just silly no matter how you look at it.
BGH also doesn't take care of the lethal damage that the Bots threaten by going to the face with explosion.
And people will keep talking about Dr Balanced until he is nerfed, that will not change. People will come to defend the card just like people defended Undertaker but in the end the call for nerfs will silence the defenders.
And as far as Blizzard having stats on the card's performance... they already stated that A) they are keeping an eye on Dr Balanced B) the card is very strong and C) the card is used in many decks EVEN aggro. You can add two and two together here. Blizzard is never going to state one of their cards is imbalanced, they will state it when the card gets nerfed.
TL
R version: Play Dr Balanced in all of your decks.
BGH also doesn't take care of the lethal damage that the Bots threaten by going to the face with explosion.
And people will keep talking about Dr Balanced until he is nerfed, that will not change. People will come to defend the card just like people defended Undertaker but in the end the call for nerfs will silence the defenders.
And as far as Blizzard having stats on the card's performance... they already stated that A) they are keeping an eye on Dr Balanced B) the card is very strong and C) the card is used in many decks EVEN aggro. You can add two and two together here. Blizzard is never going to state one of their cards is imbalanced, they will state it when the card gets nerfed.
TL
R version: Play Dr Balanced in all of your decks.Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Dr. boom... 7 mana.
BGH... 3 mana.
If you're saying that bgh isn't a counter because the bots trade into it... I don't know what to say other than 3 mana just removed ~7 mana worth of power. That is like saying BGH doesn't counter ragnaros because ragnaros always gets a shot off.
Undertaker was an entire different ball park of strength. The card literally decided games at mulligan. With dr. boom you have a lot of time to prepare and can be removed or dealt with with less mana than its cost - unlike undertaker with very sparse exceptions.
edit:
Even if you consider the boom bots to represent 2 mana value, bgh is still trading 3 mana for ~5. Still a counter even if all you do is remove the main body.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm not following what you mean by quality minions precisely. I mean, why would you not want the most possible? Aside from premium removal, or fitting curve, I can't imagine why you would pick a non-quality minion.
If you mean minions vs. spells/weapons, there is no easy answer for that.
Are you talking about curve specifically?
I generally try to get 4x 2cc (1 or 2 of these can be good 1 drops that work with the archetype of the deck), 4x 3cc, 4x 4cc, and the rest can be 5 or higher (maybe 10 at most depending on how many are 5 drops), with generally a lower curve among that set of cards. The amount of good/top removal you get also impacts your curve, along with your class. Warlock, for example, is likely gonna be much lower curve. Shaman as well depending on the amount of fire elementals you get and overload cards.
edit:
So this is a quick chart of the above, that I tend to follow:
2 mana - 4x minions (some can be 1mana)
3 mana - 4x minions
4 mana - 4x minions
5 mana and up - 10x minions max, lower the better generally
spells/weapons - generally these are often sets of their own, can't really give an amount for these since you might get 8 great spells or you might get 12 crappy ones.
Also the curve will be lower or higher depending on how the draft goes of course... and your class.
You really don't need that many cards to "fix" dragon decks. You just need one or two really good dragons at the low end of the curve, especially those that can do something against aggro decks. That's why I suggested Crimson Whelping and Broodmother.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I know you said clean counter. But that doesn't matter.
call_kotaku
Member
It's still a card that's generally useless unless your opponent plays one of 2 cards in his deck, while dr.boom is a card you can basically play whenever you have the mana to play him because he's usually the best play you can make. I feel like if I play a card and think "it's not a big deal if it gets countered by ___", then it isn't a great counter, and I definitely don't really care about the 7/7 getting BGHed in any of my decks, since the boom bots are still mega useful even if Boom is the only BGH target in the deck.
It's still interesting to think about other cards that summon multiple creatures on the board, and comparing them to Dr. Boom. Boom's value is enormous compared to stuff like silver hand knight, cenarius, murloc tidehunter, razorfen hunter, and even feral spirit. Dude's definitely an outlier considering how equivalent cards are balanced.
Well most of those aren't fair comparisons... you are comparing a Legendary to non Legendary cards.
The most fair comparisons to Dr Balanced are the following:
Hogger
Cenarius
Illidan
Troggzor
Onyxia
Mekgineer Thermaplugg
Out of these only Cenarius and Onyxia are comparable but Dr Balanced being 7 mana makes it a more appealing card. The rest are just way worse than him. It really just boils down to the fact that the Deathrattle on the Bots is just too scary... it makes the opponent think twice before dealing with them.
And I will be honest... there have been times where I played Dragon Paladin and I could've summoned an Onyxia/Ysera/Nefarian for 7 mana or a Dr Balanced and I still summoned Dr Balanced over those other cards. Onyxia in particular is damn near unplayable against Grim Patron these days.
toddhunter
Member
Anything doing four damage is really great. The fact that you get two shots at it is just way too OP so doing max 3 damage is the easy "see how it goes nerf".
call_kotaku
Member
My point is that Blizzard obviously realized that having one card summon multiple creatures on the board immediately was incredibly strong, and balanced it so that they generally produce lower total value than single creatures with the same mana cost. Razorfen summons a 2-drop and a 0-drop (the 1-drop boar has charge so this one is basically a wisp), feral spirit summons two 2-drops for 3+2 mana, etc. I don't think even Legendaries break this rule except maybe Onyxia, and there's definitely a difference between summoning multiple creatures immediately vs with deathrattles or other situational triggers. But ultimately the big thing for Dr. Boom is that he isn't easily resolved by AoE like other multi-creature legendaries, which is why he's a staple in every deck while cards like hogger or illidan are niche at best. I don't think it's necessarily something they need to change, and I think at this point the meta is fine with Dr. Boom -- it's just a bit annoying that he seems to subvert Blizzard's own balancing philosophy.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm aware that getting BGH'd isn't always going to lose you the game, but in close matches it often will, especially if they can deal with the bots in an efficient manner which is very often true. And when they can't deal with the boom bots, you only have a chance for them being very good.
Even when the dr. boom player is ahead, bgh is an opportunity to catch up because they've spent an entire turn just playing boom bots. I don't understand how you can undervalue a 7/7 body. If it goes unanswered you've probably just won the game. If it is bgh'd it is a big set back, although often not as fatal as some other bgh targets.
Gully State
Member
I'm talking about minions that you can play by themselves on a turn are quality minions. Something like mountain yeti is a solid 4 drop whereas an abusive sargeant would be considered a minion you don't want to play by itself on turn 1. I dunno, I borrowed that term from ADWTCA.
In terms of spells, I go by tier list but weapons and AOE's are typically must takes since they create favorable trades more often than not.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
The fuck?
I think they're referring to the rank difference.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Once you are Legend you can't rank down but it puts you in lower brackets. So maybe he lost a bunch of games on purpose? I figure if you hit Legend you would have to be super super unlucky to lose all the way back down to rank 7
That happens sometimes although it usually doesn't start happening until you get to rank 5 and lower.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
I didn't realize it put you against lower ranked people, like sub 5, that's crazy.
Or change the range from 0-4 so you have some duds in there, too.
Not even having one of my own, I don't mind Dr. Boom. It's predictable. You're never surprising your opponent with it, and the big body rarely lives to turn 8. It doesn't have as big an effect on the game as some of the early game cards like Mad Scientist.
call_kotaku
Member
nerf voidcaller by giving it 3 health, and nerf dr.boom by making him a 6/8
I need these demonlock wins
I need these demonlock wins
veloxStrix
Banned
Got a late start this season. Just went from Rank 12 to Rank 5 without losing a single game with my Midrange Snake-synergy Hunter.
//ARCANUM
Member
Can I see your deck list if you don't mind? I think I have most of the parts for a good deck (by that description) but could use some guidance.
veloxStrix
Banned
Yeah, give me a second.
Finally lost to Zoo with the God Hand and perfect juggles just now. I was running Kill Command instead of Ironbeak and a second Shredder instead of Houndmaster, but you need the silence in the Grim Patron matchup and the Houndmaster helps in the new Hybrid hunter matchup.
Don't keep Volcanic Drake in your opening. Do try to set up for combos off of the Unleash the Hounds and Snake Trap. The deck has a lot of synergy that has to be worked around. Hyena very rarely gets played on turn 2, but if you can buff it even once it's fairly good. I've won a lot of games against face/hybrid hunter by killing them with huge Hyenas. Don't get greedy with the Drake.
Besides that, play it like Midrange.call_kotaku
Member
Yes, these "nerfs" are what I need
Voidcaller having 3 health will also be a buff, I feel. Most of the time you need it to trade into something and die so you can get your mal'ganis/doomguard, and a lot of popular cards in the meta have 3 attack instead of 4+
toddhunter
Member
I'd disagree with that because Dr Boom kills so many deck options. There is nothing worse than building a deck, trying it out and then realising "oh, I need like three cards to deal with him". As you say, everybody runs cards and plays around Boom, but that just encourages everyone playing the same deck.
Which isn't good.
Dr Boom needs a big nerf and the game will be better.
//ARCANUM
Member
Yeah, give me a second.
Finally lost to Zoo with the God Hand and perfect juggles just now. I was running Kill Command instead of Ironbeak and a second Shredder instead of Houndmaster, but you need the silence in the Grim Patron matchup and the Houndmaster helps in the new Hybrid hunter matchup.
Don't keep Volcanic Drake in your opening and try to set up for combos off of the Unleash the Hounds and Snake Trap. The deck has a lot of synergy that has to be worked around. Hyena very rarely gets played on turn 2, but if you can buff it even once it's fairly good. I've won a lot of games against face/hybrid hunter by killing them with huge Hyenas. Don't get greedy with the Drake.
Nice, thank you! Sorry about the loss though
. Only thing I'm missing is Dr. Boom (yeah I know ) Any recommendations for a replacement? Or do I just need to drop a bunch of money on packs to try and get him or craft him? I'm currently at less than 100 dust :/To be fair, his impact is mainly lessened because everyone changed their decks to handle him, and he's still run despite that.
Whoa a lot of people are watching his stream.
veloxStrix
Banned
Nice, thank you! Sorry about the loss though
I used to not have him in the deck, honestly. You can "replace" him with another Shredder.
You have either good or 50/50 matchups against everything except Freeze Mage and Grim Patron, both of which are almost unbeatable. Freeze Mage is like 20% and Patron is like 15% due to all the anti-synergy.
//ARCANUM
Member
Cool! I'll try it out, thank you!
Every time I try to replace Dr Balanced with another card... the next game I put into a situation where the game goes just long enough and it's turn 7 and I think "oh boy, Dr Balanced SURE WOULD BE NICE HERE!"
Never again. Grim Patron, Hunter, Zoolock, Handlock, Dragon Paladin, Oil Rogue Combo Druid.. all my decks have Dr Balanced.
Never again. Grim Patron, Hunter, Zoolock, Handlock, Dragon Paladin, Oil Rogue Combo Druid.. all my decks have Dr Balanced.
The entire saga of Bridget is gold, GOLD JERRY, GOLD.
She has to be fake, there's no way a real person would respond to such a stupid opening message.
What's funny is his response + actions can easily mimic the GAF dating thread.
NobleGundam
Banned
Anyone up for testing their builds with mine?
I just made a few tweaks to my Warlock, Shaman, and a new Face Rogue deck. They're just for fun though.
I just made a few tweaks to my Warlock, Shaman, and a new Face Rogue deck. They're just for fun though.
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