How is patron broken when it can't break a leg in the tournaments?
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Hearthstone |OT3| Preparing for the Ball of Spiders Meta
- Thread starter ZealousD
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How is patron broken when it can't break a leg in the tournaments?
Kibler wasn't arguing for the nerf by citing its strength, even though Patron is well positioned. He's talking about fun-factor, the thing Blizzard treasures the most, and the reason Miracle Rogue was sent to die.
Fuck what blizzard thinks is fun. Shredder, Dr. Balanced, Thaurissan... these are things that they think is fun gameplay. These are cards that exist because of the f2p nature of the game, not as balanced or fun cards.
The best thing about CCG games are the crazy decks and synergies people find over the years. Patron and Miracle are great decks. Nuck Ferfs.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Huh? I know reynad brought grim patron to second place in the ESL season finals. What are you talking about? If I remember right, grim patron was heavily used in that tournament.
Plus, if you want to know how it is broken according to reynad, you'll have to ask him.
I've seen it fail more than succeed in tournaments I watched. It either hits its combo or fails miserably (the nature of combo decks). Even Lifecoach says the deck is weak and he played it to high legend and I trust his analysis about 100x more than Reynads.
FieryBalrog
Member
Not everyone finds fun what Kibler finds fun. I don't like playing mid-rangey value decks all that much.
I've played both sides of the Patron matchup and (for me) it's not the most rage-inducing thing to play against, not by a long shot. Sure they pull a few wins out of their ass, so do a lot of decks. And sometimes you watch them lose to themselves and its hilarious.
If anything savage roar combo is way more frustrating because it's way more binary (patron can never burst your face with just two cards, you always need more enablers).
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Okay, so whatever lifecoach says then. And whatever reynad says is clearly nonsense because it differs from lifecoach.
Dog, Firebat, Neirea, Savjz, Sjow, Strifecro, and Thijs all rated Grim patron rank 1 May week 1, week 2, week 3, and week 4. Grim Patron was voted number 1 exactly 24/27 times. 7 pro players... but mmhmm, reynad is wrong because lifecoach says otherwise.
June week 1. Oh, 7/7 grim patron warrior rank 1. June week 2. Only 5 voted week 2, but still 4/5 voted grim patron rank 1. Strifecro voted malyos lock rank 1 and patron rank 2.
Clearly a weak deck, because Lifecoach knows so much better.
Plus, I am fairly certain we're talking about decks in the context of ladder meta, not tournament. So I don't see whether patron warrior tears up tournaments to be all that relevant, even though it has had strong showings.
edit: Power rankings for may and june
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/c...-may-week-4-another-week-of-patron-domination
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/487115-pr-june-week-1-the-unholy-trinity
Why do you say kibler finds only midrangey value decks fun... you know he is credited for the basis of strifecro's aggro mech mage which strifecro popularized. When I first saw kibler start playing the tournament scene he was running aggressive druid and hunter...
Me neither. I'm not Kripbler. I like to play 10 billion cards and draw my deck out in a single turn.
But this is the stance Blizzard has taken and Kibler's just calling for consistency on this front.
FieryBalrog
Member
1) ladder meta isn't the only thing that matters, why don't tournaments matter
2) something will often be "#1 ladder deck", this is not the same as "broken deck that needs to be nerfed". Just cuz pros rank it #1 doesn't mean they think it needs a nerf! People are way too nerf happy in general, with CCGs the best solution is often to give it time especially with such a small card pool and an expansion due in a few months. That said, card games often have core archetypes and so what if Patron remains one of them? Zoo has been a dominant deck forever, and probably always will be given the Warlock hero power.
FieryBalrog
Member
Blizzard explicitly changed Patron from a 4/2 in testing back to a 3/3 because they wanted it to be more viable as a deck engine.
They also released Thaurissian which is basically combo_enabler.exe and they said they like the idea that you can have explosive plays you otherwise couldn't have had.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Blizzard doesn't nerf based on tournaments. They care far more about where 99.99999% of the playerbase plays than tournament which only impact probably even less than what I give credit for.
The game is balanced around ladder and when the meta becomes stale, when one deck dictates for months, then yes blizzard tends to have a problem with that and they will step in if they feel the need to. They could step in soon, or they could step in with the next card set. It will likely happen in some form or another.
Also, I don't think zoo has been dominant forever. It has been a strong deck for a long time but often not even considered tier 1 due to the meta.
To clarify my own position, personally I am not even sure whether grim patron is too good or not. Kibler is really right about his analysis in why miracle was nerfed and why grim patron will likely have to follow - I think. Miracle rogue is only one of the more recent examples but you can go as far back as closed beta with freeze mage, alex/otk warrior, and the charging giants warrior as well. That is why I agree with kibler and think it probably has to change.
Yes the deck is competetive but not broken or in need of a nerf. And honestly I couldn't give a fuck about what is good in ladder since the standard of plays is always low and peoples opinions are guided by dank memes. Basically people who play facehunter and zoo get pissed if they lose to combo, the same shit happens in all CCG games, noobs always hate decks that don't play themselves.
FieryBalrog
Member
Let me put it this way: Patron is a low dust deck that is also not a straightforward aggro deck. Its very existence gives another option to low-dust players who are generally forced into a few aggro archetypes- and (in my personal opinion) gives them the option to play a more intellectually demanding and interesting deck. (Sure, Zoo can be interesting in its own right but this is a deck that operates on a different angle of attack and it's not relatively simple like Face Hunter).
Yet at the same time, just because it's a very powerful ladder deck in the hands of pros doesn't mean it's a powerful ladder deck in the hands of every Joe Shmo and it's not exactly going to crush the lower ranks because it's not so easy to dominate with. Why do you think the average player complains about Face Hunter WAY more than they do anything else? If we were going by ladder complaints Face Hunter would be nerfed into oblivion by now.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You're bringing up points that are not really relevant. I am not even aware that noobs are complaining about grim patron. Kibler isn't a noob. Neither is reynad. I've also read other various pros over twitter comment on the topic. What I've said doesn't refer to what noobs think. So why bring it up as a reason to not nerf it? Under that logic even a nerf worthy deck would have the same result - you can't listen to people who don't know better. Even a broken deck in the hands of a noob wouldn't be evidence of whether that deck needs to change.
I think similar of the dust cost. I mean, sure... cool the deck is more accessible. I hadn't even thought of that much prior til now.
I don't think anyone is saying the deck should go away or even not be top ranked. I'm certainly not. At any given moment there are multiple top decks. It is perfectly fine if grim patron falls among that upper echelon. The problem kibler correctly points out is the type of gameplay that the decks permits far too often, but I don't want to screw up communicating his reasoning so go read the article. http://bmkgaming.com/on-patron-warrior-and-nerfs-everyone-get-out-of-here/
Kibler echoes Blizzards decisions a lot in that write-up. We all know Blizz doesn't like control decks in HS or big finishing blows so in that light Patron decks will probably get nerfed soon. But that is aside my point which was that Patron is not OP nor does Blizzard know what is fun and only cares about what the masses cry out.
Grim Patron deck is fine in terms of strength (top tier yes but not by some huge margin). But Kibler is also right in a way in that Grim Patron promotes a playstyle that has historically gotten nerfed by Blizzard.
So when is Kibler going to put out a Dr Balanced article? Oh wait he isn't because it isn't actually a controversial piece and no one will read it.
So when is Kibler going to put out a Dr Balanced article? Oh wait he isn't because it isn't actually a controversial piece and no one will read it.
This piece isn't controversial at all, everyone know Blizzard nerfs combo decks.
Looks like this was a reddit misinformation. Confirmed that the Magni interaction with Cairn and Vol'jin is NOT the same as Garrosh. (not sure if I'm supposed to link to reddit, but the confirmation is there)
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I don't think he thinks dr. boom is OP. I haven't watched his stream recently but I don't think I've ever heard him say that.
He has a video clip on it (Booms demolish his two Nerubian 4/4s) and I have seen him say many times how "balanced" the card is.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I recall that video but I don't remember him saying the card needs to change.
No need to say the obvious, that's the point.
I mean it's seriously has gotten to a point where people have stopped making videos complaining about the characters or submitting videos of crazy Bots compilation (used to be all over those Funny Moments videos) and instead make parody videos of people disenchanting Legendaries to craft Boom. No one cares about a complain video about Dr Balanced anymore and certainly no one cares to read an article explaining why the card is balanced.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Why do you think it is obvious? Because you think the same? I think that is a dangerous way to think about it. I don't think referring to dr. boom as dr. balanced means you think it is OP. That is just too big of a leap.
That video if I remember is about the absurd RNG he had and how and why he copes with that kind of RNG easily. It wasn't about whether or not dr. boom is balanced or not.
Dr. Boom is so overpowered that everyone just accepted we have 29 card decks + Dr. Boom.
What did you expect
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I had a good streak going with my dragon paladin deck... then hunter plays quick shot, quick shot, eaglehorn bow... #skillstone.
What did you expect
People not playing tryhard bullshit like Combo Druid and Face Hunter in nothing but Ranked mode.
SliceSabre
Banned
Since I've heard this game is actually on Android phones now I guess I have to try it out and see what the rage is all about.
AntiFacebook
Member
Dr.boom isn't overpowered. The boom bots are way to random for being something you can rely on.
casual is worse than ranked.
Haunted
Member
I've lost 6 in a row with Dragon Paladin, then went on hugely positive win rates with Flamewaker Mage and Zoolock.
dragons are just shit
Rage being the key word.
No. They are random yes, but their average damage is big enough to yield value most of the time. It's not rare at all for one player to play Boom and the opponent countering it with BGH and still losing minions. Boom is extremely resilient and offers the best value/tempo of any card in the game.
Dr Boom is balanced when you get bad RNG on the bots. With good RNG he's ridiculously strong.
Vanillalite
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I really think I'm the only Hearthstone player that thinks Boom is overrated. Every time I play him he is instantly destroyed by BGH, poly, SW
, insert any other removal you can think of here. I can count on one hand the times he's actually survived to the next round to attack. I understand his strength and still play him in most decks but I don't think he's OP. Even his bombs can be dealt with pretty reasonably.
Maybe we should tweet Kibler or something. I am willing to bet he thinks the card is OP.
If your BGH gets Shadow Death/BGH/Poly the opponent hasn't yet removed him because there are still Boom Bots in play. You have to add up the damage dealt by the Bots and how they affected the game long term. If the 7/7 gets removed efficiently by say a Fireball + ping and then the bots kill one other thing on the board that's still a 2 for one or if a game was close and lethal was decided on whether a Bot hit the face or not (and for how much).I really think I'm the only Hearthstone player that thinks Boom is overrated. Every time I play him he is instantly destroyed by BGH, poly, SW
I understand his strength and still play him in most decks but I don't think he's OP. Even his bombs can be dealt with pretty reasonably.
The other way to handle combo decks is to create some sort of control mechanism to prevent them from setting up their combo.
As it stands, I can tell you this as a priest player: about 75% of games against grim patron consist of me waiting to die from full health, and there is very little I can do about it. There are no preventative mechanisms of control, only reactive mechanisms. I can have 4 board wipes in my hand, but they're all worthless if they play virtually nothing but card draw until they can do 40 damage to me in one turn from frothing berserkers or an entire board of grim patrons with inner rage and cruel taskmaster.
As it stands, I can tell you this as a priest player: about 75% of games against grim patron consist of me waiting to die from full health, and there is very little I can do about it. There are no preventative mechanisms of control, only reactive mechanisms. I can have 4 board wipes in my hand, but they're all worthless if they play virtually nothing but card draw until they can do 40 damage to me in one turn from frothing berserkers or an entire board of grim patrons with inner rage and cruel taskmaster.
That's.... the point of the card. It does NOTHING for 7 mana when it's played. It's supposed to be sticky and hard to remove. You have to compare Boom with things like Savannah Highmane, Piloted sky golem and even Cairne, but those guys cost 6 mana.
Boom is more than fine, although I think the bots should do a maximum of 3 dmg, 4 is pushing it a bit too far.
The easiest way to see a problem with him is this: can you think of any card that trades evenly with him?
There are lots of ways to kill boom himself (SW
, BGH, etc.) but then you're still left with two boom bots that do 4-10 additional damage. Lightbomb is the closest thing I can think of, but even then, the boom bots do 2-8 additional damage. You can silence the boom bots and lightbomb, but that's 3 cards (2 silences + lighbomb) to clear 1 card.
That's my big problem with boom. There is no way to trade with him that isn't brutally inefficient.
This, so much this.
Polymorph handles all of those 6 mana cards 1-for-1.
So does Hex.
Mind control takes care of them, too.
If you silence one, that's 2 cards. Silence boom takes 3 cards, since you need to silence 2x boom bots if that's your goal.
I cannot think of any other card besides Dr. Boom that has no 1-for-1 counter in the game.
Haunted
Member
good ol' Razorfen Hunter
Just as a comparison: Ragnaros has many 1-for-1 counters: SW, Polymorph, BGH, Hex, Naturalize, Assassinate, and of course, any creature with 8 attack can run in to him. He's still a very decent card, because despite the ease with which he can be countered (often by much cheaper cards), he gets at least 1 shot of 8 damage in before he goes.
Ragnaros strikes me as a good example of a strong but balanced legendary. It may die immediately, but 8 unmitigated damage -- even if that damage is random -- is extremely strong. The danger is that Ragnaros hits a tiny minion then gets BGH'ed, or hits enemies face when they're at full health and then gets mind controlled, or something. There are strong counters to Ragnaros.
Like Ragnaros, Boom is very likely to do random damage before he dies, although it varies from 2-10. Instead of a consistent 8. Unlike Ragnaros, Dr. Boom is a card that is nearly guaranteed to take 2-3 cards down with him when he dies, and it's very unlikely those 2-3 cards are cheaper in combined cost than Boom is.
, Polymorph, BGH, Hex, Naturalize, Assassinate, and of course, any creature with 8 attack can run in to him. He's still a very decent card, because despite the ease with which he can be countered (often by much cheaper cards), he gets at least 1 shot of 8 damage in before he goes. Ragnaros strikes me as a good example of a strong but balanced legendary. It may die immediately, but 8 unmitigated damage -- even if that damage is random -- is extremely strong. The danger is that Ragnaros hits a tiny minion then gets BGH'ed, or hits enemies face when they're at full health and then gets mind controlled, or something. There are strong counters to Ragnaros.
Like Ragnaros, Boom is very likely to do random damage before he dies, although it varies from 2-10. Instead of a consistent 8. Unlike Ragnaros, Dr. Boom is a card that is nearly guaranteed to take 2-3 cards down with him when he dies, and it's very unlikely those 2-3 cards are cheaper in combined cost than Boom is.
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