-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hearthstone |OT3| Preparing for the Ball of Spiders Meta
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
- Status
Wafflecakes
Member
Yes...it is.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
This is the quick and dirty from an oft quoted article written by Mark Rosewater of MTG, back in 2002 in response to a letter from a perturbed player who was reacting to him stating that bad cards are fundamental to a CCG. The article itself is fairly lengthy and worth at least reading a few of the sections.
Some of the reasons are because bad cards will inevitably exist and some are positive reasons for bad cards to exist. Here is the full article: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr5
In particular, I think Ben Brode primarily pointed out that bad cards can become good cards when new cards are added. This is what Rosewater had to say about that:
The power of the metagame and whether the right deck existing makes all the difference. New cards enable new decks enabling old cards to have a place.
Also, in this article the letter specifically mentions how Lion's Eye Diamond is a trash card. And Rosewater points out that Lion's Eye Diamond was a 4 of and key component to one of the strongest decks that ever existed in a tournament format. I thought that was in particular quite funny.
Another possibility would be to make reprints of the most important naxx and brm cards in the next expansions. They could feature different cardart and flavor text, so the people who already have the Adventures have use for it too.
There are many reasons why there are obviously bad cards in TCGs.
1) More bad cards in the pool means that the fewer but good cards are more valuable and you feel better when you get them.
2) Cards are defined by power levels relative to each other. A card could be "good" in a vacuum but could be bad when compared to something else. Yeti used to be a STAPLE 4 drop... now no one uses it because of Shredder. Iron Forge Rifle would be good when you have to compare it to crap like Silverback Patriach but sucks when you compare it to Spider Tank.
3) In order to sell new expansions you need some level of power creep to make the new cards more desirable than the previous ones. This makes the bad cards even worse over time.
4) Some bad cards can be made good with more cards (probably the best defense for not buffing old cards). Like say in the case of Ironforge Rifleman... they introduced a card in the set that buffed minions that do damage when played from hand. So say that card provided +2 damage to minion based damage. That would turn Rifleman into a 3 mana Fire Elemental!
5) A card may be perceived as bad but may actually be good and vice versa. Or some cards are bad right now but become good in a different meta.
6) Some cards are bad but are at least unique or interesting. Like say Nozdormu or Lore Walker Cho.
7) Cards are tiered by rarity so you are usually going to have Rares better than Uncommon (especially in the case of Hearthstone where you can't exactly compared Dr Balanced to War Golem as one is a common and the other is a Legendary. Legendaries you can only have one in deck). This is especially true when a format like Arena exists.
But the whole "journey" excuse is pretty bad. Bad cards being in the game as a form of skill test is pretty awful and is actually counter intuitive to good design and balance.
Edit: Beaten for bad cards.
1) More bad cards in the pool means that the fewer but good cards are more valuable and you feel better when you get them.
2) Cards are defined by power levels relative to each other. A card could be "good" in a vacuum but could be bad when compared to something else. Yeti used to be a STAPLE 4 drop... now no one uses it because of Shredder. Iron Forge Rifle would be good when you have to compare it to crap like Silverback Patriach but sucks when you compare it to Spider Tank.
3) In order to sell new expansions you need some level of power creep to make the new cards more desirable than the previous ones. This makes the bad cards even worse over time.
4) Some bad cards can be made good with more cards (probably the best defense for not buffing old cards). Like say in the case of Ironforge Rifleman... they introduced a card in the set that buffed minions that do damage when played from hand. So say that card provided +2 damage to minion based damage. That would turn Rifleman into a 3 mana Fire Elemental!
5) A card may be perceived as bad but may actually be good and vice versa. Or some cards are bad right now but become good in a different meta.
6) Some cards are bad but are at least unique or interesting. Like say Nozdormu or Lore Walker Cho.
7) Cards are tiered by rarity so you are usually going to have Rares better than Uncommon (especially in the case of Hearthstone where you can't exactly compared Dr Balanced to War Golem as one is a common and the other is a Legendary. Legendaries you can only have one in deck). This is especially true when a format like Arena exists.
But the whole "journey" excuse is pretty bad. Bad cards being in the game as a form of skill test is pretty awful and is actually counter intuitive to good design and balance.
Edit: Beaten for bad cards.
Three bodies, 9/9 stats, and 2-8 random damage for 7 mana. Yes, it is that bad. It's worse than that actually.
Mad Scientist is still more OP though.
NobleGundam
Banned
So from 17 wins using Shaman for the past week I literally went 13+ using Mage in Brawl. Now I'm 30 wins atm. Mage is a cake walk but noticed Warrior and Rogue using Pirate combos to beef up defenses against spamming Mages now.
Think of it as an "egg and a chicken" situation. You have to have weaker cards to balance things out and new players aren't very good at spotting what cards are good and what aren't. They play with cards they think are fun and cool. Eventually if those players want to become better they start to realize what makes a good card and so they transition.
FieryBalrog
Member
I missed Noxious vs. Kaldi 
when do Vods come out?
when do Vods come out?He didn't record his deckmaking I think so he got dq.
There are very few cards in this game that are legitimately bad. And by that I mean cards that are obviously horrible for their cost. As I would never draft them under any circumstance. Less than zero on an arena scorer.
Magma Rager
Mini-Mage
Nozdormu
Savagery
Cobra Shot
Mass Dispel
Totemic Might
And that's probably it.
Magma Rager
Mini-Mage
Nozdormu
Savagery
Cobra Shot
Mass Dispel
Totemic Might
And that's probably it.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
I am not following this tournament, but what does that matter?
There's a time limit on how long you can take to make your decks.
Doubtful on some of these. I would pick Cobra Shot over a lot of garbage cards. I would also pick Mass Dispel over quite a few cards.
He's perfectly fine in a Murloc deck, wouldn't change a thing. Perfectly in line with cards like dire wolf alpha or raid leader. Murloc Raider is probably worse and even that card is fair.
Mini Mage is trash tier. Spellpower is not worth an extra full mana and a stat point. Stealth is not worth 3hp. Should be 4/2 at the bare minimum and even then it wouldn't be picked.
FieryBalrog
Member
Yeah, but mini-mage can do funny things.
Servbot #42
Unconfirmed Member
welp i went 3 3 in arena even with alextrasa, i tilted a fucking shaman bloodlusted my ass at 22HP, god dammit.
I assumed this wasn't exclusively from a constructed standpoint.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Minimage... if it survives it is doing 4 + 1 point of damage for each direct damage spell. That is not trash tier imo. You can really pull off a lot of burst with it. If you don't walk into aoe value land, it'll probably survive.
Imagine if they ever print a card for mage that does "your hero power is increased by spell damage".
Imagine if they ever print a card for mage that does "your hero power is increased by spell damage".
You'd just complain about priests and paladins next.
You will then talk about Paladin needed to be deleted.
It's not. But it's not exclusively from an arena standpoint either. Hence why I didn't list stuff like Rend Blackhand or Captain's Parrot. Grimscale Oracle is only a bad card in arena.
If they did that, it might be worth something. But I have severe doubts that they will.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
So this mage... gets ET out. I'm playing hunter but I end up killing it due to reasons and he had duplicate up apparently. He then gets 2 more ETs out. I don't know how bad of a player he had to be to lose that cause I wasn't winning in the hp race or anything and I am not running much burst, only 2 quickshots. I mean, he had everything he needed... how did he lose though lol.
This was brawl.
This was brawl.
I had a great run with Shaman in Tavern Brawl lately (had a 5 game quest with it).
Earthshock, Hex, double Owl and Wild Pyromancer allow you to gain the Banana advantage and do some sort of control game .
Basically they play a bunch of annoying shit, Pyromancer clears it up. Then they play a minion and buff it up with as many bananas as possible... which then gets silenced losing the banana advantage. Then I finish with Echoing Ooze and Violet Teachers.
Plus the hero power is really strong in this format. I beat like 3 Mages on the way.
Kripparrian made a good video on BGH today, basically going over whey it's overpowered and bad for the game. In the spirit of BGH.... I want people to come up with their own version of "Small Big Game" hunter.
Here's mine:
I think it might be more important to make a 1 health version though (to take down shit like Leper Gnomes and Wolf Riders).
Earthshock, Hex, double Owl and Wild Pyromancer allow you to gain the Banana advantage and do some sort of control game .
Basically they play a bunch of annoying shit, Pyromancer clears it up. Then they play a minion and buff it up with as many bananas as possible... which then gets silenced losing the banana advantage. Then I finish with Echoing Ooze and Violet Teachers.
Plus the hero power is really strong in this format. I beat like 3 Mages on the way.
Kripparrian made a good video on BGH today, basically going over whey it's overpowered and bad for the game. In the spirit of BGH.... I want people to come up with their own version of "Small Big Game" hunter.
Here's mine:
I think it might be more important to make a 1 health version though (to take down shit like Leper Gnomes and Wolf Riders).
I just had a bug in arena with Nozdormu.
Turn 9 (me) - I put down Nozdormu, timer is 15s
Turn 9 (oppt) - Puts down two cards, timer is 15s
Turn 10 (me) - My turn sign comes up, I can't play any cards and I had less than 2s on my timer
Turn 10 (oppt) - He played his cards in the 15s like normal
I ended up losing. WTF.
Turn 9 (me) - I put down Nozdormu, timer is 15s
Turn 9 (oppt) - Puts down two cards, timer is 15s
Turn 10 (me) - My turn sign comes up, I can't play any cards and I had less than 2s on my timer
Turn 10 (oppt) - He played his cards in the 15s like normal
I ended up losing. WTF.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Giants are the thing stopping any kind of change to BGH I think.
I know BGH gets a lot of hate but the second they nerf it, Handlock is going to run absolutely wild.
I know BGH gets a lot of hate but the second they nerf it, Handlock is going to run absolutely wild.
Servbot #42
Unconfirmed Member
Damn i'm gonna need a vod or something that seems hilarious. Also i got wrecked by hunter at rank 2, i had to face 3 highmanes in a fucking row, fucking disgusting. Someone was spectating me but i dunno if he was a gaffer, damn huck funters indeed.
Yup that's true. Also Dr Balanced. Most classes aren't going to have a good enough answer to Dr Balanced without BGH.
Like if BGH wasn't in the set Dr Balanced would in fact be a banned card from tournaments.
That's why I don't hate BGH too much.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Just be warned that hardly ever works, every class has a way to remove a 3hp minion on turn 2 reliably except Paladin, and they can just follow da rulez next turn
LMAO @ trying to calculate odds against Boom Bots.
They always do what you don't want them to and you have to play with that in mind.
The thing that gets me is even if BGH was born to be anti-giant...couldn't it just be 8 attack or up? 7 is the sweet spot that invalidates so much shit. While the 8/8 dragon bodies would still get wrecked, it's always a shame to see any minion that has 7 attack be nearly unplayable due to the existence of that card. I would love to see if a card like Mogor would ever actually see play.
But yes, now it's basically necessary to be 7 just for Dr. Balanced. It's pretty hilarious that he gets sniped in essentially every match and is still powerful enough to run despite that.
- Status