It's not even that versatile since you can only target minions.
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Hearthstone |OT5| Corrupted Deeprock Salt
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
It's not even that versatile since you can only target minions.
BananasWithGuns
Member
The problem with it is Mage has better options for dealing with minions at the 1-5 mana range, so the only reason you'd be playing this is for the flexibility.
I think it could be decent in Reno Mage but besides that I'm not sure. It has good synergy with Flamewaker and Antonidas but with Mage already having so many cheap spells I think that hurts those prospects a little bit.
I think it could be decent in Reno Mage but besides that I'm not sure. It has good synergy with Flamewaker and Antonidas but with Mage already having so many cheap spells I think that hurts those prospects a little bit.
Super Nothing
Member
I wouldn't call Forbidden Flame garbage tier, but I don't think it's good enough for constructed. Mage has a ton of damage spells already and I can't think of any that are worse than this, but it's not useless. And I think you're over valuing Forbidden Shaping. That card is too random. Priest really needs high health minions so that they can get great trades using their hero power and other healing spells. Throwing a random cost minion onto the field really isn't the best strategy for them. They already have Resurrect that summons a random minion that they chose to include in their deck for 2 mana, and that doesn't even get played.
RumblingRosco
Member
How is that Mage card not just a strictly better Pyroblast?
Oh, limited to minion.
Oh, limited to minion.
Yeah, cthun is the dud in that list, but not far behind varian wrynn. Unless you're a priest cthun deck - then is this one ALSO going to get the buffs? Also, I assume the other old gods might cost 10.
No face damage.
Yeah, I, it's about as good as dragon's breath, to be honest, as far as mana efficiency goes, only this one never gets to potentially have really good efficiency. I'd pick it if I discovered it and it would happen to do the right amount of damage.
It might be ok if spell damage mage somehow becomes a thing. 0 mana 2+ damage is ok, I guess.
It looks pretty terrible to me. 1 for 1 mana for damage is not good, and it can't even hit face like pyroblast. I would expect this to sit in the dumpster with flame lance. The utility of being able to use it early or late game just doesn't make up for it always being bad value.
Super Nothing
Member
In that scenario, Arcane Blast is strictly better. With the same +2 spell damage bonus, you get a 6 damage hit on a minion for only 1 more mana.
Oh, i'm not saying it would replace any other mage spell, they'd all go in before this one (save lance/breath maybe). You'd just toss this in if you had extra room in your deck after all your spells/damage/etc. I honestly just see this being a good situational discover pick, at best.
That's a good point, it seems alright w/ cards that do something when a spell is cast. Even 0 damage = fireball is ok on antonidas.
RumblingRosco
Member
Flamewaker is rotating out though with GvG right? Your point still stands of course, just the best example right now won't be used much, outside of Wild.
I think the Priest one could see play. The ability to follow up a SW
or Entomb with a random 2/3/4 drop makes for a nice tempo swing. It also has the flexibility of just playing it by itself early versus aggro decks or late versus control decks and being good to great in both scenarios.
It's better than Resurrect because you are guaranteed to get a minion at the mana cost you spent. The risk of getting a late game Cleric or Zombie Chow off of Resurrect always held it back.
or Entomb with a random 2/3/4 drop makes for a nice tempo swing. It also has the flexibility of just playing it by itself early versus aggro decks or late versus control decks and being good to great in both scenarios.It's better than Resurrect because you are guaranteed to get a minion at the mana cost you spent. The risk of getting a late game Cleric or Zombie Chow off of Resurrect always held it back.
Arcane blast is just better than this right now in tempo mage. Dealing 2-3 damage for 2-3 mana is just awful. Scaling on this is awful overall, 1 mana for 1 damage is below curve period. You have the flexibility here bit it's not worth much on damaging to minions only. Deal two for each mana to a minion would have been fine imo, and it wouldn't even be broken, they are too conservative with this. Yeah, it would be a strictly better card than flame lance but that card is awful anyway. Remember that you have to fill your curve to use this card optimally and cast it LAST, so it wouldn't be all that strong. Sure, you can deal 6 for 3 mana and do something else too, IF you can use your mana efficiently. That would have been an interesting card, this is just mediocre. I like the idea though.
Karsticles
Member
On one hand, I dislike Secrets as a mechanic.
On the other hand, I think they need help.
Would it really be so bad if Secrets gave card draw? Their cost could be adjusted, but then they wouldn't be such a bad bet.
RumblingRosco
Member
flamewaker is from blackrock mountain.
Wow that news just ruined my day. I thought that asshole was rotating out
They already run two Arcane Blasts though.
Looking at Tempostorm, the spell list includes:
-2 Arcane Blast
-2 Arcane Missiles
-2 Flamecannons (going away)
-2 Frostbolts
-2 Fireballs
-2 Unstable Portals (going away)
-2 Secrets (ideally not cast from hand)
-1 Arcane Intellect
Forgotten Torch replaces Flamecannon in the most straightforward fashion, but that leaves Unstable Portal if you want to keep a similar number of spells (unless you're going to rely on the added spells from Forgotten Torch).
Forgotten Torch is also a 1:1 mana damage spell in the early game though.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Aww man I was thinking that these cards would be pretty cool in arena(especially the priest one) but they're both Mythical so that sucks.
Wow that news just ruined my day. I thought that asshole was rotating out
ONE MORE YEAR
Dude wtf? Have arena now, with 5 paladins in a row. It's a normal? Ok.
Strange thing is another. Every times I win, was topdeck in seven turn, single flamestrike in deck. Four wins in a row totaling.
Keep finger on a pulse to push the snapshot button and it did happen, again. I'm in the loop, help! Need a break.
Strange thing is another. Every times I win, was topdeck in seven turn, single flamestrike in deck. Four wins in a row totaling.
Keep finger on a pulse to push the snapshot button and it did happen, again. I'm in the loop, help! Need a break.
I guess the main pitch over Torch (assuming you don't use both) is that Torch is a 3 mana, 3 damage spell at first (and thus no better efficiency wise), and you can also exchange these for fireballs at zero cost when you drop Antonidas. With Torch, you have to cast the 3 mana, 3 damage spell, and then hope you dig out the 3 mana fireball later.
This card also lets you spend more or less mana to kill something with more or less health, assuming you have the right cards otherwise.
That said, the Antonidas exchange obviously only works if you draw him.
I'm not sure if it's ultimately more attractive, but I feel this isn't a clear cut obvious win for Torch.
The other problem with the card in tempo mage is sequencing. With flamewaker, you want to hit a high health minion first to direct your single random shots better. With this you have to cast your other cheap spells first then cast it. If you hit a high health minion with this you can't do anything else after.
I think they will start running spellslinger to generate spells in place of missing cards rather than this. Cards like Saraad could see play too in slower games. There are enough cards for mage to use that have good synergy over this one. It's rarely a good value imo, it's too hard to gain tempo with this.
It's not strictly better, you can find edge cases that one card is better than the other otherwise. But in general torch works better. The more mana you spend on this the worse it is actually, sure it can save you that one time that you kill Rag with it that other spells couldn't help but every else it's hard to make this useful.
I think the card is much better for a control mage deck than a tempo mage deck actually. In that deck you can just sit and react to your opponent, having a card like this can be good while you stall the game.
I think they will start running spellslinger to generate spells in place of missing cards rather than this. Cards like Saraad could see play too in slower games. There are enough cards for mage to use that have good synergy over this one. It's rarely a good value imo, it's too hard to gain tempo with this.
It's not strictly better, you can find edge cases that one card is better than the other otherwise. But in general torch works better. The more mana you spend on this the worse it is actually, sure it can save you that one time that you kill Rag with it that other spells couldn't help but every else it's hard to make this useful.
I think the card is much better for a control mage deck than a tempo mage deck actually. In that deck you can just sit and react to your opponent, having a card like this can be good while you stall the game.
Forbidden Shot
0 mana
Spend all your mana. Deal that much damage to the enemy hero.
SMOrc
Both of those cards are very good. Both of them will see play for sure.
Cards with scaling effects are insanely good. Cards with multiple effects are also very good. In a way these two cards have both.
Forbidden Shaping:
Priests do not have a good 2 drop. This hurts them in aggro match ups. This card is now a decent 2 drop in an aggro match up. In a control match up it's a pretty good 6 drop.
There is no other low cost minion that scales so well into the late game. This card is great.
Forbidden Flame:
Tempo. Tempo. Tempo.
Playing a tempo deck is all about using your mana more efficiently than your opponent. This card allows you to turn how every much mana you want into spell damage. This combos with spell synergy. This is crazy good tempo utility.
If this card did face damage it would be broken beyond belief. As it is now, it is a very good tempo card.
I can't wait to play with both of these. Awesome cards.
Cards with scaling effects are insanely good. Cards with multiple effects are also very good. In a way these two cards have both.
Forbidden Shaping:
Priests do not have a good 2 drop. This hurts them in aggro match ups. This card is now a decent 2 drop in an aggro match up. In a control match up it's a pretty good 6 drop.
There is no other low cost minion that scales so well into the late game. This card is great.
Forbidden Flame:
Tempo. Tempo. Tempo.
Playing a tempo deck is all about using your mana more efficiently than your opponent. This card allows you to turn how every much mana you want into spell damage. This combos with spell synergy. This is crazy good tempo utility.
If this card did face damage it would be broken beyond belief. As it is now, it is a very good tempo card.
I can't wait to play with both of these. Awesome cards.
The Mage card seems like it's better if you are going first. If your opponent drops a card that has an amount of health equal to mana cost + 1 you have a flexible response immediately after they play it. But if you're going second then you'd be one damage off.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I think I've forgotten how to play tempo mage
I swear to God I seem to be getting worse at this game as time goes on.
I swear to God I seem to be getting worse at this game as time goes on.
CraigerGamer
Member
First of all, Rogue for this brawl is amazing. Combo combo everywhere. Its so great.
For these two new cards, do you have to play all of your mana in order to get them to work? Or if you have 6 mana available, spend 5, and play the card you will deal 5 damage?
The language on the card confuses me.
For these two new cards, do you have to play all of your mana in order to get them to work? Or if you have 6 mana available, spend 5, and play the card you will deal 5 damage?
The language on the card confuses me.
You would deal 1 damage in the scenario you described, since you only have 1 mana crystal left to spend when playing the card.
CraigerGamer
Member
oh. OH. ooh. ugh.
Super Nothing
Member
I believe it uses all of your available mana when you play it. So, if you have 6 mana and play it, it will consume all 6 mana and deal 6 damage.
Still a gamble to play as a 2 cost minion. I probably would never play it as 2 cost unless I was desperate. Getting something like doomsayer or an ancient watcher loses games.
Also, this includes only the collectable minions, right?
Karsticles
Member
Or just play Forbidden Shaping and get a 4-cost minion, and save Knife Juggler for later.
I have to say that's how I was reading it, too. It fills the tempo gaps and adds a new counting game to Mage.. it's going to be a very good card if you play it well and a miserable one if you don't. It also doesn't allow for stupid combos like Malygos + Forbidden Flame to be played from hand unanswered.
Super Nothing
Member
Doomsayer is an effective anti-aggro tool so long as it doesn't get silenced. There's almost no way for an aggro deck to kill it on turn 2. If they can, then they just had to use a massive amount of burn that didn't hit you in the face. It also prevents them from playing more minions until after the Doomsayer is gone, so they don't snowball out of control before you can Holy Nova/Excavated Evil.
markofhavoc
Member
Guys....
My Sincerest Thanks is so much better than Well Met
My Sincerest Thanks is so much better than Well Met
I'm seeing hate for Forbidden Flame and I don't understand it. The card is an incredible compliment to Frost Bolt and Fire Ball.
Tempo mage is about to lose a lot of great spells in standard. This includes Flame Cannon, Unstable Portal, and probably secrets since Mad Scientist is gone. To make up for that they need flexible spell options.
Arcane Blast fits in the deck very well. To gain value out of it you should have some spell damage which is something not all tempo decks run. If you have azure drakes, this should be included.
Forgotten Torch. To gain value out of it you need to cycle through a lot of your deck. This is something tempo mage doesn't want to do. You want to wrap the game up around turn 10.
Forbidden Flame. To gain value you have to figure out when the best time to play it is. The card lacks in damage/mana, but it makes up for it by being flexible. Need a 1 mana ping to knock off a divine shield, this is it; Need to get through a taunt for lethal, this is it; Need to trigger counter spell before next turn lethal, got it;
Think of all the times you used a spell inefficiently to clear a minion from the board... This card lets you make the most of that bad situation. When you have to fireball a Huffer, this is a strictly better card.
Tempo mage is about to lose a lot of great spells in standard. This includes Flame Cannon, Unstable Portal, and probably secrets since Mad Scientist is gone. To make up for that they need flexible spell options.
Arcane Blast fits in the deck very well. To gain value out of it you should have some spell damage which is something not all tempo decks run. If you have azure drakes, this should be included.
Forgotten Torch. To gain value out of it you need to cycle through a lot of your deck. This is something tempo mage doesn't want to do. You want to wrap the game up around turn 10.
Forbidden Flame. To gain value you have to figure out when the best time to play it is. The card lacks in damage/mana, but it makes up for it by being flexible. Need a 1 mana ping to knock off a divine shield, this is it; Need to get through a taunt for lethal, this is it; Need to trigger counter spell before next turn lethal, got it;
Think of all the times you used a spell inefficiently to clear a minion from the board... This card lets you make the most of that bad situation. When you have to fireball a Huffer, this is a strictly better card.
Yes, it'd be a desperation play, like popping a shredder for one. I'd just run a doomsayer, haha. There are several great 2 drops, but also quite a few bad ones. I'd probably only play Forbidden Shaping with no less than 6 mana. More likely around 8 or 9 since there are so many minions there with immediate effects.