Mayon Noggenfogger is the card I point to when I say they learned the lessons of Yogg Soron. It's a "fun" card with a crazy RNG effect that'll never see serious competitive play.
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Hearthstone |OT8| Elise's Extremely Irresponsible Field Trip To Un'Goro
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Mayon Noggenfogger is the card I point to when I say they learned the lessons of Yogg Soron. It's a "fun" card with a crazy RNG effect that'll never see serious competitive play.
Acerac
Banned
Isn't it a bit harsh for the fun cards to be entirely unplayable? To reference your avatar, I feel that Finja is a solid design when it comes to such things. He has some randomness to him, but both players have input. Beyond which, if you build your deck around maximizing him you can all but minimize the randomness involved.
Noggenfogger just feels like Nozdormu. They are neat concepts in theory but have too much stacked against them.
Thank you they are not identical at all. The purpose for using a deck thinner is different from Scry cards
SonicXtreme
Member
the feeling of snagging nat the darkfisher when silvermoon portaling a daring reporter in arena against a warlock >
hilarious combo considering my draft contains...four gadgetzan gazette reporters lulz
hilarious combo considering my draft contains...four gadgetzan gazette reporters lulz
Acerac
Banned
Aye, you're not setting up for future turns when using tracking. While a 1 mana scry 3 with cantrip could be used for that purpose, it would clearly have more versatility. Good call, I was in the wrong there.
That said, given the design of the game I wouldn't be surprised if that is the closest we get. The fact that we've seen absolutely nothing that modifies deck orders makes me skeptical as to whether that is even possible to do with the way the game is made. I'd love to be wrong here, but from what I remember hearing waaaay back was that your deck basically exists in a nebulous state from turn to turn, and that at the beginning of your turn a card is pulled from that pool. If I am wrong here (happens all the time) then it wouldn't be as tough, but if my memory serves me then they'd need to jump through some hoops for the mechanic to work as it should.
Yeah I don't mind RNG in my games -but- I want to see pros in tournaments use skill
I used to be a proponent of Yogg til we all sadly watched the pros watch the game play itself (Yogg)
Those were some grim days indeed. Too bad they just couldn't ban that card from pro play but at least before Blizzcon they nerfed yogg into the ground on the down low
SonicXtreme
Member
noggenfog should've been truly random, if it allowed misdirection like plays it would be almost a fun card, as it is it blows
Brawndo Addict
Banned
How did Yogg used to work? Only targeted enemies?
Yogg used to not make sense- it would keep casting spells even though it was dead plus it didn't Overload the 'caster' even though it was casting Shaman spells
I thought it was so cool!!! But I was a noob and naive. Hearthstone is my first major CCG I just didnt know any better.
I thought it was so cool!!! But I was a noob and naive. Hearthstone is my first major CCG I just didnt know any better.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Woah, that's crazy. I feel like my yogg kills himself immediately like half the time I play him lol.
Exactly!
Spells kept going off even if Yogg was killed, transformed, silenced, returned to hand/deck. In addition, overload cards didn't overload the player but that change actually came after because despite the initial nerf Yogg was still seeing some play.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
He's just such an inherently RNG based card that I kind of wish the effect didn't end prematurely. I'd be willing to lose the ability for it to target enemy heroes or something just to see the ongoing shenanigans. I feel like if you're playing yogg you're not playing to win anyway, you're playing to see stupid shit happen.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
So it's basically the same thing as aggro shaman in the first rotation.
Why is it also the aggro decks that lose the least in rotation?
Yeah, the number of ways he can save you is what made it so frustrating. There's even ways he can save you fatigue. No matter how far ahead you were in the game, there was no way to prepare for a Yogg you knew was coming.
I mean it's only aggro decks that just recently got their weapons.
Face hunter was mostly obliterated by the last rotation.
And aggro shaman takes a big hit this rotation.
I have an issue when they make cards for Timmy that end up being must-includes in Spike decks.
Disguised Toast and his ilk have had lots of fun shenanigans with the Mayor, but I don't have to face that shit on ladder when I'm try-harding. It's a win/win.
I want to at least pretend I'm playing the same game that my favorite professional players are playing. If they're playing a game that doesn't have Yogg and yet I'm forced to face Yogg every other game when I'm climbing the ladder, that would make me quit the game. Admitting a card was too busted for competitive play but telling me I have to play against it anyway because I'm not a pro player? Nope.
Dude, Yogg won games, straight up. Won them in such a way that zero decisions made by either player mattered in the final result. It literally turned the game into a coin flipping simulator. It's the worst, most toxic card to ever be included in Hearthstone (and I have seen some terrible things in this game in my two years).
Wow! Nicely done.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
It's just a little weird how they want to give big boosts to the archetypes that are clearly going away with rotation soon like Reno and Dragon, but boosts like Tunnel Trogg and Patches/Small Time Buccaneer don't really get the same consideration.
problem was the pros still try to play the post nerf Yogg. So we still had to sit through some not so exicting games.
If he was nerfed + banned from tournaments it would've been sweet.
(Luckily by Blizzcon the pros finally figured out it was time to remove their crutches and stand on their own two feet)
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
lol I dont think the Pirate Warrior is bored while he's swinging his axes and earning free wins (edit- I literally mean free in some cases I've had many a player instaconcede at the sight of Patches & Co)
I know when I get on my pirate warrior time flies
Now if he's really building good decks from scratch and winning that's good for him I give him props
I know when I get on my pirate warrior time flies
Now if he's really building good decks from scratch and winning that's good for him I give him props
Nah, some people like to pretend that they're better than the rest of us because of the decks they choose to play.
I know, I used to be like that. I'd rather lose playing control than win with aggro. Then I figured out that I'd never beat aggro if I didn't understand it, and once I started playing aggro, it turned out it wasn't as easy as I imagined. Heck, playing an aggro deck perfectly is hard. Knowing when to trade, when to go face, which cards of your opponent you have to respect and which you have to disregard, playing around some things, but not playing around them too much... Control snobs like to pretend only the decisions they make matter, but that is patently not true.
As far as that guys actual post, he is apparently claiming that netdecking some Reno list is somehow more creative than netdecking an aggro list?
Or is he saying that the people who build and refine aggro lists aren't as skilled as the deckbuilders who figured out what 28 cards work best with Reno and Kazakus?
I disagree with both points of view. People should play whatever deck they find fun, even if they are a Spike.
As far as building decks? An aggro deck has to be super lean and refined to work.You want to win and you want to win fast, so every single card matters. A reno deck? Throw a bunch of shit in there, who cares, Reno, Kazakus and late game burst will cement over a lot of flaws in the deck and the player piloting it.
Obviously I'm exaggerating, but you get the point. Control players need to get over themselves, they aren't inherently superior to people who play fast decks.
Unless they play Priest, in which case they're scum.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
ding, ding, ding very well said.
Karsticles
Member
I saw this on reddit and had to share the best Evolve of all time:
https://clips.twitch.tv/danehearth/RichBearJebaited
https://clips.twitch.tv/danehearth/RichBearJebaited
He lost anyway, right? He only had a chance of winning because of the other legendary.
Net decking an aggro deck is in fact easier than net decking a highlander deck, as weird as it is to say.
Mostly because just about every Pirate Warrior/Shaman is very similar to each other. Highlander decks on the other hand contain 1/3rd tech cards, most of which the average player doesn't even know how to play properly or know why it is even in the deck. You can net deck a rank 1 Aggro Shaman deck and do well at any rank but for better efficiency you can't exactly copy the rank 1 Renolock deck because it's going to be teched against the high rank Legend meta.
Not saying aggro decks don't make tech choices, every deck does but the highlander decks have a far greater range of tech options and thus for the average net decker it's difficult for them to figure out which cards suit his playstyle and rank the best. Control decks by their very nature have to make their decks to control the meta where as aggressive decks dictate the best cards in the game that need to be answered by everyone else (aka they are the meta most of the time).. that's how the game has always been, it's nothing new.
From scratch, it's also easier to build a good aggressive deck than it is to build a good highlander or control deck but no one is really going to go through that because net decking exists.
Mostly because just about every Pirate Warrior/Shaman is very similar to each other. Highlander decks on the other hand contain 1/3rd tech cards, most of which the average player doesn't even know how to play properly or know why it is even in the deck. You can net deck a rank 1 Aggro Shaman deck and do well at any rank but for better efficiency you can't exactly copy the rank 1 Renolock deck because it's going to be teched against the high rank Legend meta.
Not saying aggro decks don't make tech choices, every deck does but the highlander decks have a far greater range of tech options and thus for the average net decker it's difficult for them to figure out which cards suit his playstyle and rank the best. Control decks by their very nature have to make their decks to control the meta where as aggressive decks dictate the best cards in the game that need to be answered by everyone else (aka they are the meta most of the time).. that's how the game has always been, it's nothing new.
From scratch, it's also easier to build a good aggressive deck than it is to build a good highlander or control deck but no one is really going to go through that because net decking exists.
I figured I would just play some casual matches to get my 40 minions killed quest. I've still not gotten a quest worth more than 40 coins, rerolling every time.
Since winning didn't matter, I thought I would just play mage and focus on killing minions as much as possible. I ended up going 4-0, simultaneously getting the quest. Maybe there's a lesson I should learn.
Since winning didn't matter, I thought I would just play mage and focus on killing minions as much as possible. I ended up going 4-0, simultaneously getting the quest. Maybe there's a lesson I should learn.
Lagspike_exe
Member
Yeah, no. Every single face shaman/hunter, midrange shaman or pirate is a cookie cutter with maybe 2-3 specific cards. Reno decks require an immense amount of precision in curvature, possible combos and much more precise timing to work. Same goes with control. The same is simply not true for aggro decks. It is only logical that more complex decks are in fact more powerful and should dominate the sub - rank 10 meta.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
not really, no. The most consistent while fast decks dominate a ladder that is all about playing lots of games.
I'm not seeing all the variety with Reno decks to be honest, I think the amount of flex slots have been grossly oversold. You could even argue that Renodecks running the burst combo are substantially different enough to those running Jaraxus and more control options in its place, they'd deserve their own seperate tracking and nomenclature. Midrange and Aggroshaman regularly share 24+ cards but are separated for instance.
People play Aya in Aggro shamy to having potential sticky board that not disturbed by Ren
She easily replaceable tho
And I like Azure drake more than leeroy
She's great. Play her after a few other jade cards and by that time she usually represents enough upfront damage to threaten lethal, with enough stickiness that her deathrattle + lightning bolt usually finishes them off
last season I watch Trump climb to Legend 17 with aggro shaman. I think he could've went higher but he just wanted to secure his position for blizzcon
I am curious why you think a reno deck is so much more complex then a well tuned aggro shaman which has been tightly optimized. Especially when you have some streamers criticizing reno decks calling them more RNG reliant then ever
I think Creativity and Skill needs to be applied to how we solve problems during the course of the game. Deckbuilding is dictated by the meta and you only be so creative within those constraints
You won't see MOBA players bicker about 'cookie cutter' builds (League of Legends for example have talent trees, items, and rune pages to configure) but rather they focus on the decisions they face during the course of the game.
I feel Aya is optional too. The nice thing though if a Priest were to grab Aya she'd not do much for them so I run her in my aggro shammies (edit- but to be clear- I feel she's a flex slot)
I was thinking to try that. I have a bunch of paladin class quests
What you said has nothing at all to do with what I said. Those "cookie cutter" decks were all created by someone. Probably Reno decks were harder to optimize, but who cares? They're optimized now.
It's a joke to pretend that Reno Warlock is so complex. Reno Warlock mostly plays itself at this point. It's pretty easy to predict what their play is gonna be every turn, and once the game gets to a certain point they vomit their "very skillful" 20 damage from hand combo and win. SUCH SKILL! WOW.
Fake Internet Points. If you're Disguised Toast, some youtube revenue. Otherwise, squat.
You don't start getting quests larger than 40 gold until you've completed 10 40-gold quests.
You can literally win with Prince Malchezaar in your deck as a Renolock if you have Reno on 6 and PO when you need it. I lost to that deck today because he Renoed to gain 28 health on turn 6 and then was gifted a fucking Old MurkEye to go with his Power Overwhelming to burst me down for lethal. I was playing Murloc Druid, btw, so I don't think he could have gotten a better legendary than Murk Eye from the Prince. I'm supposed to believe this is some skilled deck analyzer who found a really well tuned Renolock list? No. He played a shit list with shit cards and got bailed out because Reno decks have tons of board clears, tons of heal, and tons of burst. This fucking guy coined Hero Power on turn one, declining to save his coin for Reno.
Comparing the skill needed to pilot Reno Warlock to the skill that was necessary to pilot Handlock, and it's no comparison at all. Handlock was incredibly tough to pilot, especially in a meta that had Face Hunter as a frequent opponent. You can play Reno Warlock very badly and still win because of the deck's power level. Handlock, every decision mattered a lot more because there wasn't Reno waiting to bail you out.
The gulf between Aggro and Control as far as skillcap is nowhere near as distant as some people like to believe.
Postscript:
Yes, I know I'm exaggerating when I call Reno Warlock autopilot, but the reason I am doing that is that so many people like to pretend that aggro decks are autopilot and that is just not true at all. They are both equally false, yet someone the first statement is inflammatory and the second is conventional wisdom. The closest thing we have to true autopilot decks are curvestone/midrange decks (Dragon Priest/Jade Druid for example) and even those are a bit more complex than Secret Paladin was in its heyday.
I am Error
Member
I just learned that you keep your ranked chest even if you lose ranks. I feel so dumb right now.
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