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[Alur]

I remember when I first played in Alpha wishing so hard I could zoom it out. Would make things much easier, but now I don't notice I guess.

The "on fire" mechanic has been demoralizing for the most part in the games I've played. Granted those games were with McIntyre, so whichever team he was on just shat upon the other team.

That's why I said old(er). Although I'm probably still the youngest. ��

Among our group I think so, which says a lot about our group. On here I know for sure Famalie is much younger. No clue on Mal and the other regulars, though.

 

[Ketch]

I dont mind the armor stuff too much i think, depends on what actually happens after it goea live i guess.

To me the worst thing is if you are in draft and you opt to pick a "tank" that has resistences to the enemy damage type, without consideration of the tank's actual base kit...like w/ anub his kit complements being an "anti-mage" very well, that kind of categorization of him is something that makes sense, but the idea of picking jo as anti-auto because of her phys armor when her kit is about setup, waveclear, and disruption is booty to me, like pick her for access to her blind, dont pigeonhole like this.

Tyrael was really good against mages previously but he lost the thing that made it so, like they made him straight up worse against mages w/ this patch, i confused. His kit is still good for it, but the spell armor thing is awfully confusing and weird, he's a super mobile hero who is supposed to dodge spells...

The thing I think bugs me is these tanks will take hp and defense nerfs because they are adding spell or basic armor, but then they don't really surface the armor stuff in the game. So then you get people drafting these heroes in low level HL thinking that "anubarak is good now" or whatever without actually knowing why, and then the enemy team just doesn't have mages anyway. It's the same thing as what happens now except +1 more hidden layer of info.

Hopefully they find a way to surface the armor stuff in the game to make it clear.

 

[brian!]

Yeah stuff like worgen granting armor is alright to me since it's in the tooltip, but i cant recall seeing base armor stuff being displayed in a flashy way. I think ive seen it in hero select but i might be imagining things. The thing you said about ppl just picking "what's strong" makes sense to me, blizz says that part of this change is to prevent that but it feels like it might just exacerbate it

 

[Kioshen]

I've recalled seeing a dev comment that they are looking into adding armor info in the character info screen at the very least.

 

[Maledict]

Armour is on the character sheet now at least, but I think the new character descriptions help the most.

Re age, I am older than dirt, officially.

 

[scoobs]

So I've been pouring all of my available HOTS hours into Zul'Jin the last week, and I'm feeling pretty confident in picking Troll's Blood 90% of the time at level 4 instead of the attack speed buff. ZJ already does absurd AA damage, and gets AA speed buffs elsewhere in his talent tree, what he lacks is any kind of sustain and ability to heal up after a good Taz'Dingo. I'm going Troll's Blood and I don't care who knows it. Troll's Blood combined with his level 13 heal while moving gives him the ability to come back into a fight so much quicker its actually insane. I'd recommend anyone who's struggling w/ Zul'Jin (in quickmatch especially, where there are rarely supports to keep you alive) to ignore HOTSlogs this time, and take this talent.

 

[Ketch]

I've recalled seeing a dev comment that they are looking into adding armor info in the character info screen at the very least.

Yea I guess that's okay. But I'd like too see something like "anti mage tank" instead of "warrior". Like right up front.

 

[Maledict]

Yea I guess that's okay. But I'd like too see something like "anti mage tank" instead of "warrior". Like right up front.

They changed all the hero descriptions to specifically say that now. They also classify warriors as either tanks or bruisers specifically (Thrall and Ragnaros are also bruisers). So they specifically state which tanks are anti spell caster for example.

 

[brian!]

One thing i was thinking about (that may or may not be a non-issue) is whether they will try to push certain heroes as "good against x type of dmg" and then -> "because x has special properties against x damage therefore they are a great pick in these situations". For blizz they are doing the former in order to forestall a "top 3 warrior" style of thinking, which is cool and all, but it also promotes bad thinking about heroes and potentially bad hero kits in the future...the only one that really stands out to me atm is phys armor on johanna, anyone who plays this game knows that while johanna has certain tools that do well against auto-attackers this really really isnt ever a good primary reason to pick her. Anub got spell armor, but he his kit is very good against mages at it's core; to me it is fine to handhold players who dont understand and just be like yo pick this it's good against mages trust me, but you're gonna potentially get to a point where johanna is picked as an anti-auto hero straight up. They are going to get their asses kited and be confused

 

[TheSadRanger]

I've been more bummed about the skin output recently more than anything.

Only 1 new skin out of the Lucio and Probius update. It's like Blizzard doesn't want my money ;_;

 

[Ketch]

They changed all the hero descriptions to specifically say that now. They also classify warriors as either tanks or bruisers specifically (Thrall and Ragnaros are also bruisers). So they specifically state which tanks are anti spell caster for example.

Really? That's great! Now they can just unfuck the qm match making and everything will be right in the world

 

[Alavard]

I've been more bummed about the skin output recently more than anything.

Only 1 new skin out of the Lucio and Probius update. It's like Blizzard doesn't want my money ;_;

It's possible that they're holding back in advance of the new progression/lootbox system.

 

[Alur]

Meant to ask this at the time, but thoughts on how much influence having Dunktrain as coach (and a second set of eyes) helped Dignitas dig back out and win the Western Clash? Specifically in getting vengeance on Misfits to get to the finals.

 

[scoobs]

I think having a good coach is severely underrated. There's a reason all the top esports organizations in other games have coaches. I'd look for more of this in the future as the esports scene continues to grow in HOTS.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Ok isn't it a bit hypocritical to write off Dignitas' win by saying you choked (pretty much everyone at Fnatic), when the very same can be said of the win from Fnatic against MVP Black?

 

[Maledict]

Ok isn't it a bit hypocritical to write off Dignitas' win by saying you choked (pretty much everyone at Fnatic), when the very same can be said of the win from Fnatic against MVP Black?

Mum, I wouldn't say that's the whole story for example, Smx said on twitter they have never choked that hard - but his very next tweet says how much dignitas improved their play for the final compared to every other game.

I think it's okay for a team to say they choked as part of the reason they lost. They did choke - they made some weird dumb plays that they weren't making in other games, and seemed very tilted by the end. At the same time, Dig brought their A game and played at a level they hadn't managed for the rest of the tournament.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

When the first thing you say is "we choked" and only then say the other team played well you're writing it off.
I'm going off Quacknixx in Fan's chat today as well as tweets right afterwards.

I've been doing the exact thing with Fnatic since Blizzcon, it's just funny to me they are now the ones doing it.

Spoiler

Didn't realize Quacknixx was in the chat and said "Fnatic forever 2nd"

 

[Kioshen]

Meant to ask this at the time, but thoughts on how much influence having Dunktrain as coach (and a second set of eyes) helped Dignitas dig back out and win the Western Clash? Specifically in getting vengeance on Misfits to get to the finals.

I think it helped a lot. Having an objective set of eyes looking at stuff while you play and offline is immensely useful. The amount of progress they made during the three days are a testament to that. I think this article sums it up pretty nicely. It's a little biased because he's a coach himself but he makes good points, especially about GFE.

 

[Maledict]

It's hard to argue with the notion that Dunktrain really helped them given how they performed and improved over the tournament.

One thing I am fascinated by, and would love to hear about, is when the notion of drafting a stun comp came to them. Were they always planning on doing it, and held it back till they needed it, or was it a last throw of the dice? I'm interested particularly about whether Misfits two lost games to Tricked Esports fed into that decision - Misfits hadn't lost a game all season, then suddenly lost two games to a mid tier team using a solo Tyrande support comp. Was that a sign that the meta had been missing something, and Dig picked it up and no-one else did?

I do think there's also a thing there about playing off-meta heroes you enjoy and know well. Bakery himself said he loves playing Tyrande, and it showed during the matches - same with Mene and Kael.

 

[brian!]

Meant to ask this at the time, but thoughts on how much influence having Dunktrain as coach (and a second set of eyes) helped Dignitas dig back out and win the Western Clash? Specifically in getting vengeance on Misfits to get to the finals.

Should be crucial, every team that wants to compete globally should have a coach and analyst

Ok isn't it a bit hypocritical to write off Dignitas' win by saying you choked (pretty much everyone at Fnatic), when the very same can be said of the win from Fnatic against MVP Black?

Iirc prtty much everyone on fnatic said that they won this because mvp was having an off day

 

[Maledict]

Interestingly, one thing I read somewhere from Fnatic - apparently the solo Tyrande didn't surprise them, as Bakery loves her and plays her in scrims well. It was the Stitches that was the shock.

JayPL is a lesson for NA by the way. He wasn't a pure tank player at the start of heroes, but focused on it because his team needed one, and now he's one of the best tanks in the west. You need dedicated tank players at the hearts of teams. Watching AlextheProGs analysis of the Dig v GFE game really highlighted the disparity in the tanking.

 

[Alur]

That super flex team bullshit is amazing if you're a HL/TL warrior, but in real competition the player who is a pure specialist in that role is likely going to win out on a consistent basis.

More than specializing in roles, NA just needs to look at a team like Team 8 compared to GFE/BStep/Denial/Naventic and realize putting a team full of superstars/big names together isn't getting them anywhere. Since that started in earnest they've went backwards, not forwards. If they are happy just winning NA, then yeah, it can work. But the synergy and proper roles that come from lesser known players (who are also willing to buy more into the team and less into ego) is the way to go.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Interestingly, one thing I read somewhere from Fnatic - apparently the solo Tyrande didn't surprise them, as Bakery loves her and plays her in scrims well. It was the Stitches that was the shock.

JayPL is a lesson for NA by the way. He wasn't a pure tank player at the start of heroes, but focused on it because his team needed one, and now he's one of the best tanks in the west. You need dedicated tank players at the hearts of teams. Watching AlextheProGs analysis of the Dig v GFE game really highlighted the disparity in the tanking.

Pretty sure GFE is aware. Every member of theirs says the whole 4 flex thing is overblown. It's not like they have no tank player it's actually quite similar to Dignitas when they were with Alex. They are developing to have multiple tank players on certain heroes. Jay would play Kerrigan and Illidan when needed while Alex would be main tank but in duo tank situations Jay would be main and Alex be on one of his off tank comfort picks. Khroen and Equinox will grow into the role, Khroen in particular seems to have a bit of a aptitude for it.

Iirc prtty much everyone on fnatic said that they won this because mvp was having an off day

Fnatic still feels like they can beat MVP if the draft is even to this day though.

 

[brian!]

I wouldnt know about that since i dont follow either team, jus saying that choking and not showing up is real and it's not hypocritical w/r/t the mvp fnatic series since fnatic says they won off a fluke

The moment khroen explained that he was put onto tank because "he's good at hitting skillshots" i knew gfe would have tank issues lol

 

[Maledict]

Pretty sure GFE is aware. Every member of theirs says the whole 4 flex thing is overblown. It's not like they have no tank player it's actually quite similar to Dignitas when they were with Alex. They are developing to have multiple tank players on certain heroes. Jay would play Kerrigan and Illidan when needed while Alex would be main tank but in duo tank situations Jay would be main and Alex be on one of his off tank comfort picks. Khroen and Equinox will grow into the role, Khroen in particular seems to have a bit of a aptitude for it.

Fnatic still feels like they can beat MVP if the draft is even to this day though.

Nah, it's not the same as Dig and Alex at all. Dig with Alex ran two tanks most of the time, and if not then they put JayPL on a heavy bruiser. Totally different to GFE where one game Khroen is their main ranged damage, and the next game he's their tank. You can see the difference in their games - as a team, they do not gel around their tanks in the same way other teams do and their tanks don't have the same confidence other teams have.

They need to bite the bullet and stop with the silly role swap. I understand that they are in that spot partly because of the fact they all have a limited hero pool, but if they want to fix it they need to accept they can't all play their best heroes all the time and start focusing on certain roles. If that means Khroen no longer gets to play Li-Ming then that's the price they pay, but right now it feels like their egos get in the way too much and they won't accept not playing certain heroes they like.

 

[brian!]

Imo i think role swapping is ok, but ppl on gfe are bad at tanking, i dont think even if they dedicated someone (besides fan) to the role that they would get a good tank out of it. But it should be equinox

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Nah, it's not the same as Dig and Alex at all. Dig with Alex ran two tanks most of the time, and if not then they put JayPL on a heavy bruiser. Totally different to GFE where one game Khroen is their main ranged damage, and the next game he's their tank. You can see the difference in their games - as a team, they do not gel around their tanks in the American way other teams do and their tanks don't have the same confidence other teams have.

They need to bite the bullet and stop with the silly role swap. I understand that they are in that spot partly because of the fact they all have a limited hero pool, but if they want to fix it they need to accept they can't all play their best heroes all the time and start focusing on certain roles. If that means Khroen no longer gets to play Li-Ming then that's the price they pay, but right now it feels like their egos get in the way too much and they won't accept not playing certain heroes they like.

Dig with Alex ran double tank a lot but Jay wasn't always on a heavy bruiser. They dominated with Jay on Zeratul with their VP RoF combo for instance. Equinox and Khroen still need a ton of practice no doubt but they don't need to bite the bullet at all. They need keep at it, reiterate and practice. Many of their losses come down to spotty shotcalling and individual player skills. Equinox on Braxis vs Fnatic had no business dying 3 times solo in top lane, their boss attempt was soundly reasoned but ridiculously poor executed in the same game.

 

[Maledict]

I think some flex is okay - Dig has two flex players in Snitch and Zaelia, both of whom play very different roles depending upon comp. But they still have a solid core of tank / support / ranged damage in the other slots. Right now GFE has too much flex and not enough fixed. I also don't think that you can flex the main tank role very much, if at all. You're right in that Dig managed it a bit with Alex and JayPL, but for the majority of their time and all the other big name teams, the main tank role has been fixed.

I just don't think you can have someone playing Li-Ming one game and then main tank Muradin the next, no matter how good their individual skills are on those heroes. I love Khroen, I think he's an amazing guy and I'm a sub for his channel, but I think they would do better by putting him onto the ranged dps role full time and pushing Equinox to broaden his tank pool and pick up the tank role full time.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

If at all I think Khroen should transit to being their main tank.

 

[Kioshen]

GFE used to have a coach but now he's busy with Heroes of the Dorm so maybe that explains why they just try to overpower other teams with their flex prowess instead of building on something solid and cohesive.

 

[Maledict]

If at all I think Khroen should transit to being their main tank.

I would agree, only I think their other ranged dps options are very weak. Khroen has single handily won games for them on Tracer and Li-Ming, and the other players in the team don't seem as good as he is at that. Maybe I've missed the matches where they have shone.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Fan covers Li Ming and that's about all the ranged Khroen played this season. Udall and Fan both play Tychus. Equinox got Tracer and Fan valla.

GFE doesn't really have a mage player atm, it's been Li Ming or bust.

 

[Milly79]

Surprised Alur didn't post how we played Tempo sponsored Yunalesca with GFEMavis or whatever (owner?) and Peng who sounds familiar, but can't remember where I know that name from. 4 stack vs their 5 stack. We destroyed them. She got salty when I was bstepping them and told me to get my boiz together to play her, lol.

 

[Alur]

I walled her up about 8 times on Nazeebo. Was good times. We didn't have a four stack then, just a three stack I think. Kio had already left I believe.

 

[Milly79]

Yeah, you're right. He had left by that point. Wall, + Malf and Arthas roots were destroying them even though they had the mobility with Lucio.

 

[Kioshen]

I don't recall playing them but sad I missed this. We were rocking those matches yesterday.

Edit: Just checked her hotdoggy profile and surprised to know I wouldn't have felt out of place.

 

[Maledict]

You guys must be playing way about be my level if your getting matched with streamers, Macyintyre etc. most I've ever had were some Russian streamers on the enemy team!

 

[Alur]

We hit streamers or GM folks a decent amount. Mind you we're talking QM. My HL MMR is higher, but I think proto is what causes us to hit them in QM. Me and Milly float in the 2700-2800 QM range after all the resets, proto is like 3200 or so I think. Kio and Milly's buddy are like 2200 or 2300, so we face a wide range of stuff.

Here's the GIF with bonus alternate ending. (egooooooooo)

Nah we just practicing.

EDIT: Also pretty sure GFE Mavnis is actually Kio. He says the same thing after every bad game too. "Sorry for feeds, no idea what I'm doing in HOTS."

 

[Kioshen]

We hit streamers or GM folks a decent amount. Mind you we're talking QM. My HL MMR is higher, but I think proto is what causes us to hit them in QM. Me and Milly float in the 2700-2800 QM range after all the resets, proto is like 3200 or so I think. Kio and Milly's buddy are like 2200 or 2300, so we face a wide range of stuff.

I agree that Proto raises the chances of getting paired up with streamers. Makes the games more challenging though which is fun.

EDIT: Also pretty sure GFE Mavnis is actually Kio. He says the same thing after every bad game too. "Sorry for feeds, no idea what I'm doing in HOTS."

Dang you've found me ...

Edit: Also that Lucio was savage at the end damn.

 

[scoobs]

I've been matched against some pros quite a few times, namely McIntyre and Srey. I don't think I've actually won any of the games, but it's usually because they're playing with viewers with very low MMRs in quick match. I'm around 3200 MMR in QM for reference.

It's fun, but like I said, I just lose badly to that level of player.

 

[brian!]

I used to match w/ dem all the time when quick match was the primary mode, but it quickly became a ghost town, might run into say a equinox or nightmare but not really one of the popular pros

I had like 3 games in a row w/ glau learning medivh on his smurf but that was months ago

In ptr tho, it's like every other match there is a known player in the game

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I wonder when it is finally time for Lunara to get nimble wisp baked in and get actual talents at 4

Turns out I'm pretty close to you guys in QM but looking at my MMR in unranked explains why my games are so shit there. I think I'll stay away from the mode completely going forward.

 

[scoobs]

I wonder when it is finally time for Lunara to get nimble wisp baked in and get actual talents at 4

Heard them suggest it on THH, and ya, although Lunara is technically in a fine spot, those talents are poo poo

 

[brian!]

Yeah i dont think she needs wisp talents at all unless they are actually interesting

Like cmon where are the suicide wisps for mana drain

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'd be fine if the talents were at least interesting. Imagine 1 makes it a turret, 1 a proximity mine, 1 small aoe heal, 1 lets it soak XP, something such etc.

Nimble wisp was immediately clearly the best pick because it gave the most utility and made the skill actually worthwhile.

 

[Alur]

Edit: Also that Lucio was savage at the end damn.

Hah, yeah. Not sure if that was a friendly Milly-style barb or serious. He plays with her a lot, dunno if he knows Mavnis though. Does crack me up dude manages a HOTS team and is definitely not very good at the game.

 

[brian!]

Think he's the owner

The other wisp talents are interesting, like maybe there could just be nice situational talents at that tier which would def be solved by making some of nimble baseline

 

[Kioshen]

Hah, yeah. Not sure if that was a friendly Milly-style barb or serious. He plays with her a lot, dunno if he knows Mavnis though. Does crack me up dude manages a HOTS team and is definitely not very good at the game.

Managing a team and playing in a team are two very different set of skill sets that don't have a lot of overlap. I'm glad he at least takes interest in what his team is playing.

 

[Alur]

Managing a team and playing in a team are two very different set of skill sets that don't have a lot of overlap. I'm glad he at least takes interest in what his team is playing.

Agreed, but managing a HOTS team isn't like managing a department store. Typically you're involved because you already liked the game or a similar game, so one would assume some osmosis would happen. Especially in a game where the overall skill level is lower compared to it's counterparts.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Didn't realise GFE was actually born with Heroes. I still don't know any of these orgs.