mr.dilya
Banned
You definitely care. Get over it. From makes games for their fans not “everyone.” Fuck everyone. Everyone didn’t make the souls games the hits they are today….it was the people who actually enjoy them the way they are.
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You definitely care. Get over it. From makes games for their fans not “everyone.” Fuck everyone. Everyone didn’t make the souls games the hits they are today….it was the people who actually enjoy them the way they are.
mr.dilya
Banned
Because FROM doesn’t want to. The creator has explained why….the games are still hugely popular, so that should be the end of it. Instead with every FROM release these journalists start beating the same stupid drum. Enough already.
Ladioss
Member
An easy mode completely makes sense in the kind of cinematic gaming experience Sony produces for its hardware, for example.
The absence of an easy mode completely makes sense as a statement, as a manifesto and as part of your game's aesthetics if .you wish so - like the Dark Souls games did when they incorporated difficulty into the core experience - and the mystique - of the games.
You don't have to cater to the lowest denominator if you don't want to.
You can be as challenging as you want, as long as you keeps it fair.
You don't have to be "inclusive" because bullies told you so, or facilitate the gentrification of gaming by the urban/pseudo-leftist parasitic bourgeois class who need another economic domain to colonize with "reviews", "critical theory" and consulting jobs because they can't create anything by themselves.
The absence of an easy mode completely makes sense as a statement, as a manifesto and as part of your game's aesthetics if .you wish so - like the Dark Souls games did when they incorporated difficulty into the core experience - and the mystique - of the games.
You don't have to cater to the lowest denominator if you don't want to.
You can be as challenging as you want, as long as you keeps it fair.
You don't have to be "inclusive" because bullies told you so, or facilitate the gentrification of gaming by the urban/pseudo-leftist parasitic bourgeois class who need another economic domain to colonize with "reviews", "critical theory" and consulting jobs because they can't create anything by themselves.
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reinking
Gold Member
I didn't ask why the dev was against it. They can do whatever they please with their game and people can choose to buy it or not. I am asking whey are other gamers so against it.'
As for telling people to get over it and enough already. Those gamers that want an easier mode should continue to speak up. That is the only chance they have to get something like that added. Again, why does it impact you? Regardless of if an easier mode is added or not.
Shubh_C63
Member
BIG NO, coming from a guy who is PISSED at Sekiro being too hard.
But I won't have it any other way. A good dev probably puts grind in game for people who think things are too difficult (which was missing from Sekiro, you either can hack it or you eat sh*t as far as that game is concerned, even its "cheat" i.e proper tools takes skill to execute.)
Bloodborne was also comfortably hard but you could farm few areas to get over that hump.
But I won't have it any other way. A good dev probably puts grind in game for people who think things are too difficult (which was missing from Sekiro, you either can hack it or you eat sh*t as far as that game is concerned, even its "cheat" i.e proper tools takes skill to execute.)
Bloodborne was also comfortably hard but you could farm few areas to get over that hump.
Jigsaah
Gold Member
Here we go again.
Even before any official information about the gameplay was made public, gaming outlets are already starting to ask for an "easy mode" to be implemented in the game.
Dead horse flogging reasoning as usual, at least this time without pretending it's about protecting physically impaired gamers, but those are 100% sure to arrive as we get closer to reveal and release.
When they do, I'll be collecting them in this thread!
Why Elden Ring should have an assist mode | TheSixthAxis
Difficulty in video games is a controversial topic, and for years there have been two sides to the argument. There are those people who want to ensurewww.thesixthaxis.com
Worry not, looks like FROM didn't lose touch with reality and no casual difficulty settings will be there in the game, as confirmed by the vetted Era leaker.
EDIT 12.06: as promised, I'll be updating this OP with more articles of the same sort for your viewing and debating pleasure, guaranteed to appear as we come closer to the release.
Here is gamingbible, explaining how From must not leave inept gamers behind:
'Elden Ring' Should Learn From Dark Souls And Include Difficulty Modifiers
Let Elden Ring sing.www.gamingbible.co.uk
Nerdshot, arguing for difficulty modifiers = accessibility
Sorry I'm late but....
Megatron
Member
how does an optional difficulty mode destroy the game for anyone? If they make a game with extreme difficulty as the default but let people who want to change it, how does that hurt anyone?People need to grow a spine and stop using 'gatekeeping' as a negative. Gatekeeping your games and hobbies is 100% desirable to avoid them being destroyed by outside influence.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
I don't see why not. I love these games and I would not use it but why not put accessibility menu with half damage, slow motion etc.
This could be fun for some future runs too.
It's not the same but I prefer Soma with easy monsters because they ruin my appreciation of the story and world.
On the other hand, this is what is special about these games. Every time I replay them, it's a challenge and I am focused.
This could be fun for some future runs too.
It's not the same but I prefer Soma with easy monsters because they ruin my appreciation of the story and world.
On the other hand, this is what is special about these games. Every time I replay them, it's a challenge and I am focused.
Shubh_C63
Member
Every game should have just 1 difficulty option, the way its meant to be played.
There is no problem with optional difficulty, but optional things are rather unbalanced and truly doesn't represent what a game has to offer. Increasing XP, easier enemies sounds fine but is a lazy way to up/down a challenge. And I really don't expect devs to fine tune every difficulty option.
Also FROM games are long with in-game difficulty bumps anyway, so just play till you can and throw the towel when double ape fight comes.
I think ER will be the longest FROM game and probably only as hard as Bloodborne.
There is no way its going to be more punishing than Sekiro.
There is no problem with optional difficulty, but optional things are rather unbalanced and truly doesn't represent what a game has to offer. Increasing XP, easier enemies sounds fine but is a lazy way to up/down a challenge. And I really don't expect devs to fine tune every difficulty option.
Also FROM games are long with in-game difficulty bumps anyway, so just play till you can and throw the towel when double ape fight comes.
My source is dude trust me but I think FROM learned a lot about difficulty from DS, BB and Sekiro.
I think ER will be the longest FROM game and probably only as hard as Bloodborne.
There is no way its going to be more punishing than Sekiro.
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Killer8
Gold Member
Because the fucking developer has said for over a decade that he wants you to get satisfaction from overcoming a challenge. Have you never in your life achieved something that you had to put a lot of effort into, feeling extremely good but also relieved about it afterwards? You don't get that feeling by coasting through on easy mode - THAT'S WHY THERE ISN'T A FUCKING EASY MODE. It's straight out the director's mouth:
And have you ever been through a hardship in your life, say a difficult exam, but were able to talk about it with friends afterwards knowing they all experienced the same as you? That's another important feeling the game is trying to capture in the community:
I don't understand why all of this is so hard for smoothbrains to grasp. Maybe they never achieved anything worthwhile in their lives and never experienced these feelings. Maybe they have no concept of delayed gratification. Maybe they are the ones who don't actually treat games as an interactive art-form, preferring to just blindly run through, gawping at all the pretty colors and 'the story' instead of actually engaging with it - then onto the next game.
Honestly it says a lot about a person's immaturity when they keep demanding shortcuts in these games.
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mr.dilya
Banned
Better question is why are these people who are demanding an easy mode bothered by those of us who are content with the game as it is? FROM games are designed to push the player and challenge them to overcome the odds without having the ability to knock the difficulty down to bail themselves out. If that doesn’t sound palatable then their games are not meant for you. It blows my mind how entitled some gamers are. You guys aren’t owed anything. Go spend your money on games that you actually enjoy.
Bartski
Gold Member
I'd love to see them making it even tougher on the surface, but then introduce many more creative and hidden ways to make things easier for the player to discover.
Stuff like using the malcontent on the Demon of Hatred, or a second phase deathblow on the True Monk, lightning reversals etc... so part of the challenge is for you to figure a weakness and use it.
Perhaps, different options of this kind that depend on your build. That would be awesome.
As opposed to actual cheese strats which are about abusing game mechanics against their design, flaws in geometry collision etc. Eventually, someone will find a way but imo this stuff should be ironed out as much as possible.
Killer8
Gold Member
Because those gamers have realized the brilliant, rewarding nature of the game's difficulty. They actually have respect and understanding of why the developer designed it like that. It's frustrating for them to see other gamers essentially wanting to devalue the experience for themselves. It's the lesson that even small children get taught: “If you cheat, you'll only be cheating yourself.” It's funny how many grown adults just don't get that when it comes to this series.
The feeling of overcoming the challenge is what has resonated with so many people and positioned Souls in so many best ever lists. A player who just gives in and switches to easy mode will not find nearly as much satisfaction with the game, or form as deep an emotional connection with it. It's likely that the game would just become another forgettable hack-and-slash title on easy mode - just a safe, 'good' game, not the masterpiece many wrestled with and triumphantly defeated. I will hear many people now say: "hah, that means the game is nothing without its difficulty!" as if it's some sort of gotcha. But... yes, that just proves the point that the difficulty is an integral part of it. Every masterpiece ceases to be if you take away a critical part of the design.
This also reminds me of another thing which the haters and journalists often cry about: that the mantra of 'get gud' is demeaning. But actually looking at the words, it's backhanded encouragement. They aren't saying "gtfo of Souls", they are giving a command to stick with the game because they know it will ultimately pay off. Fans don't want you coming in demanding an easy mode, but what they do want is for you to succeed at beating the built-in difficult. Almost everyone will give advice, so the idea that the community is elitist is frankly crap. There are whole wikis devoted to the games which no one shames anyone for using. Hell, there are even community hint messages built into the game itself. This shared experience you get from everyone playing at the same level is by design, as Miyazaki keeps saying. One person will have a hard time, another person will have an easy time, so that person imparts advice like tactics and character builds, and - oh look, you now have a discussion going. Whereas you would not if the first person just switched to easy..
As for this idea of it being 'their only chance', that is such a ridiculous phrasing. You make it sound like this is some 'one chance to save the whales' student activism. As you say, people can choose to buy it or not, so i'm puzzled why someone who chooses not to buy a game would continue to fart into the wind about it when they aren't even invested in it. It's like screaming: "I WANT TO BUY YOUR GOOD GAME, BUT FIRST PLEASE CHANGE THE MAIN REASON WHY THE GAME'S GOOD". The series has been going since 2009, over something like 7 releases now. Since then, the director has repeated the same justifications for its design, ad nauseam, in dozens of interviews. If it hasn't changed already, it's not going to. And yet, every new From Software release, we get the same nagging, the same articles from the usual retards refusing to get it.. So I don't blame people for getting annoyed at this fucking dead argument, because I sure as hell am.
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Lanrutcon
Member
I'm actually for an easy mode. Call it what it is ("tourist mode" or something), slap it in for people who want the story/lore but can't hold a controller straight, disable achievements, wall off the multieplayer, disable the optional bosses and whatnot, strip it down to hold the user's hand and just guide them through the story in a linear fashion so those people can see the sights and then never play the game again.
And then evaluate the development effort it would take to implement that against potential sales. Probably not worth it, and definitely not necessary for the game to sell like hotcakes. Maybe tourist mode can be outsourced to another studio as DLC or something.
Also: I am in favor of adding a super hard mode as well. At this point the franchise has built up a collection of really skilled players. Give them a mode to flex on.
And then evaluate the development effort it would take to implement that against potential sales. Probably not worth it, and definitely not necessary for the game to sell like hotcakes. Maybe tourist mode can be outsourced to another studio as DLC or something.
Also: I am in favor of adding a super hard mode as well. At this point the franchise has built up a collection of really skilled players. Give them a mode to flex on.
tommib
Member
I love you.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
But they wouldn’t get the story or lore. Souls games are famous for being massively obtuse about the way they lay the story out. If you played Dark Souls on an easy mode for the story, you wouldn’t have a clue what the story was by the time you finished the game.
Piecing together the story of a Souls game is hard in and of itself. It requires time, patience, and a level of dedication that an easy mode player just wouldn’t have.
Thats the point though. Every aspect of a Souls game requires patience, time and dedication.
And the people asking for an easy mode clearly don’t have those things, so playing a Souls game would be a useless, terrible experience for them.
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This is beautiful. Perfectly stated
Lanrutcon
Member
You're confusing story and lore here. The story of Dark Souls is simple: you wake up, get told the ring the bells, go ring the bells, then go relight the fire. The easy mode version of the story for the easy mode version of the game. You're assuming the tourist wants to deep dive into the game like normal players do: they don't. That's the point. They'd be perfectly happy with only skimming the surface. You'll never be able to dumb down then entire Souls experience for easy consumption, the best you'd be able to do for tourists is serve them just enough of it to give them the sense of satisfaction they're after.
They want a McDonalds burger, basically. It's not quality and probably not even a real burger by any decent measure, but it's enough of a burger to satisfy someone who wants a quick fix.
But like I stated before: the entire exercise is only worth it if the there's an actual audience there that makes it worth it commercially. I don't think it increases the merit of the product beyond potentially making more money.
Roufianos
Member
The Souls community and its gatekeeping is just the worst.
It would literally make no difference to your experience of the game if other people got to play on easy.
FROM could make the game as intended then go in after and add some sliders. Fewer / less aggressive enemies, more health for the player, more damage dealt etc. None of that would compromise the intended experience.
And ok, people who play it on easy won't be getting the full experience but so what, surely a gimped playthrough is better than them quitting after 30 minutes?
Did the option for players to literally make TLOU II a game you could run through affect any of your experiences with the game?
And before anybody tells me to 'Git Gud', I've beaten Demon's Souls and Dark Souls III this year.
It would literally make no difference to your experience of the game if other people got to play on easy.
FROM could make the game as intended then go in after and add some sliders. Fewer / less aggressive enemies, more health for the player, more damage dealt etc. None of that would compromise the intended experience.
And ok, people who play it on easy won't be getting the full experience but so what, surely a gimped playthrough is better than them quitting after 30 minutes?
Did the option for players to literally make TLOU II a game you could run through affect any of your experiences with the game?
And before anybody tells me to 'Git Gud', I've beaten Demon's Souls and Dark Souls III this year.
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tommib
Member
nightmare-slain
Gold Member
this is the game y'all want:
So petty and childish, you slam a community that would be more than happy to lend you a helping hand.
You want a hand holding on the rails experience. You want the creators to make you a dollar meal from McDonald's rather than a gourmet meal they're trying to serve you.
One of the reasons soulsborne games are at the level of popularity they're at is because of their difficulty.
Yet you want to take away that experience all these people share. Yes adding an easy mode would remove it, because overcoming the challenge is what these games are about.
Extra: "The Souls community and its gatekeeping is just the worst." this would also be aimed at the creators of the game. Because they don't want to add an easy mode. Everyone else must be in the wrong, it's not like you're trying to fuck with FromSoftwares creative choices right?
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Stefan.North
Member
Make an easy mode buy call it a 'weakling' mode, have bosses telling you're not worth the effort and send weakest minions to fight you, have NPCs spit on you, each equipment piece have nerf prefix and all enemies on easy mode have bunny ears.
I'd be all for this but lets be honest, you'd have journalist up in arms about FromSoftware hurting peoples feelings
Bartski
Gold Member
not only journalists. I've seen plenty of pissed-off people on the internet saying "stigmatizing easy modes" in gameplay (hello MGSV) should be cancelled.
SSfox
Member
FS games are already some of the most balanced and non broken games.
Asking for an easy mode in a FS game is like asking no blood in a MK game, or non sex scene in a porn movie, it's just too nonsensical. The challenge in FS game is a big core part of the design games.
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St0pThatGuy
Neo Member
Waypoints? Signposts? Ever heard of a strategy guide? Or one of a million gaming forums that post that shit? I find street fighter to be difficult. I need sliders for the opponent to pull punches. Where does it end?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
nightmare-slain
Gold Member
i used a guide for the souls games. i accepted i wasn't good enough and looked for help. i didn't go crying about it on the internet and didn't demand the developers change their design/formula just because i found it confusing.
like anything else once i get the feel of it i had a better idea of what to do and things to look out for. if we're gonna need an easy mode then might as well just dumb everything down and not give anyone a challenge just cause some people don't want to think too much for themselves or go through any effort.
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luffie
Member
Your framing is exactly as wrong as those who screams for easy mode, as if the fanbase is the one being aggressive.
Instead, the question is, why are they so AGAINST the developer's vision? When the developer has stated clearly he doesn't want to do it.
Why are they so AGAINST ONE difficulty?
Why are they so determined to muddy the gameplay and design?
yurinka
Member
No, when you get blocked and need to go back and to farm a ton to beat an enemy, or when you need a game guide to know how to get or how to do something you need to continue, or these games also include random kills you can't avoid unless you're lucky.
It isn't challenge, it isn't difficulty: it's just bad game design. But for some sadistic and masochistic reason it works with many people, so many people are very forgiving with these guys with this issue and many other things, while being so unforgiving with other devs and publishers for less important issues.
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TonyK
Member
I finished all Dark souls, Demons Souls and Bloodborne... but I wish Sekiro would had an easy mode.
I love Miyazaki games because I really (REALLY) love the setting in his games. Those worlds, narrative, dark, deep and epic tone. It connects deeply with me in an artistic way. But his games are too demanding for me. Sekiro was almost a torture in some bosses. But again, I love his vision of those worlds that he and his team creates.
So, for people like me, that loves his games not only for the challenge, and we don't have anything closer in atmosphere in any other game, it would be fair an easy mode.
And easy mode don't affect other difficulty modes, people will have their challenge. But a non existent easy mode leave behind people that loves the vision of Miyazaki as artist, narrative designer, creative director, but doesn't play necessarily for the challenge itself.
People that don't want to understand this are elitist, and see From Software games as macho alpha tests instead of art. Don't feed your ego, feed your soul.
I love Miyazaki games because I really (REALLY) love the setting in his games. Those worlds, narrative, dark, deep and epic tone. It connects deeply with me in an artistic way. But his games are too demanding for me. Sekiro was almost a torture in some bosses. But again, I love his vision of those worlds that he and his team creates.
So, for people like me, that loves his games not only for the challenge, and we don't have anything closer in atmosphere in any other game, it would be fair an easy mode.
And easy mode don't affect other difficulty modes, people will have their challenge. But a non existent easy mode leave behind people that loves the vision of Miyazaki as artist, narrative designer, creative director, but doesn't play necessarily for the challenge itself.
People that don't want to understand this are elitist, and see From Software games as macho alpha tests instead of art. Don't feed your ego, feed your soul.
Zannegan
Member
Alternatively, they don't agree with you, and they don't think the developer should have to waste time and resources tailoring his vision to the lowest common denominator when his games can clearly succeed without trying to be all things to all people. This is coming from someone who generally finds Souls games too slow and obtuse to be worth bothering with, not any sort of macho alpha (and the idea that anyone can be macho or alpha about games is hilarious, even though I'm sure it happens all the time).
Anyway, try not to make broad, sweeping generalizations that fail to consider any point of view other than your own.
i.e. Don't stroke your ego, use your head.
RedWhiteBlue
Banned
Completely disagree. Not elitist. Not "alpha" blah blah blah.
I also struggled with Sekiro and I also love these worlds etc.
The thing that stands out to me with Sekiro is that I absolutely 100% WANTED to finish that game and see all the endings and master all the bosses BUT I also knew with certainty that if I wanted that then I must learn and get good at the game.
The problem is that we are at a crossroads in terms of philosophy. I don't want the developer to offer me an "out". You do.
If they offer it then we take advantage and see their story but we never mastered their game.
If they dont offer it then we must master their game to see their story.
That knot can't really be untangled. The developer wants to reward players who never give up and find a way to beat the game. That's at odds with saying "actually just go into the menus and pick easy mode and beat the game easily."
That "you need to earn it" thing is present in real life though. Parents might offer their kids money for chores or exam results etc. A good parent would understand why you shouldn't let your kid be rewarded for failure.
Obviously games are not real life BUT if a game wanted to reflect some feeling of real world struggle then wouldn't this "you need to beat the challenge as it is presented with the tools provided" be the way to go about that?
Its a difference between games that are experiences and games that are challenges. I think we need to allow space for both in the industry but people keep on moaning about the handful of games that focus more on that challenge aspect.
Easy mode would feel like such a huge shift for From Software from a niche cult developer to a more generic mainstream product that panders to gaming media in the hope of getting extra sales.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Jibran#one
Member
I play most games on easy mode , finished all ds games and sekiro the difficulty of these games make them a sub genre, that makes them the from software games I swear I almost cried on last boss of sekiro
RedWhiteBlue
Banned
When I see people making points like that I wonder how much they actually think it through.
Should each individual game aim to be everything to everyone?
OK I've had a hard day at work and I want to play a chill game that looks good and has relaxing sounds but I don't want to concentrate or be stressed out. Should Souls games be trying to provide that option?
So no matter what mood you are in, how old you are etc etc you should be able to pick up Elden Ring and get whatever experience you want.
I think there are two videogames philosophies there that are somewhat mutually exclusive.
One is the focused experience that has a narrow scope but does it really well. The other is a broader game where there is essentially endless and varied content. Today I just want to look at the world. Tomorrow I might want to rob a bank. The next day I might want to farm and craft items.
Would From Software even have the budget to make a successful "something for everyone" sandbox?
reinking
Gold Member
I would guess because adding the easy mode does not take away the challenging mode for those that like it? Whereas the no easy mode does remove the option for them?
At the end of the day, I don't personally care. I have played and completed the souls games I liked and left behind the ones I didn't. I just think options for consumers are better than not. As I said before though, FROM and any other software company is allowed to make their choice. Me, as a gamer/consumer, would never criticize those that want access to the story and environment without having to play in a way that makes it inaccessible to them.