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"I Need a New PC!" 2016 Plus Ultra! HBM2, VR, 144Hz, and 4K for all!

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Ended up getting an Asus 1070 Strix today. I was originally going to get a 1060 to hold me over until the release of the 1080ti or to see what Vega has to offer, but when I was in Microcenter, felt better going tthe 1070s way. My machine hasn't been used or turned on for that matter in over 3 months due to me not having a GPU. Did a bunch of stuff today once I got into the machine. As I mentioned it's been awhile:


  • Cleaned the rig. It was full of dust. The intakes, the H100, PSU fan. It was awful. I spent a good amount of time taking care of that and wiping everything down.

  • Changed the orientation of the H100 and switched the cooling setup from intake to exhaust. Decided to keep the push/pull setup. In total I've got 3x 120mm intake fans in the front of the case, 4x exhaust on the H100, and 1x 140mm exhaust in the back.

  • Applied new thermal paste to the CPU. First time in a long time that's been done. My CPU temps are in the 25-28c range and that's with manual voltage @ 1.38 @ 4.5ghz, 4930k 6 core. I'm actually going to reset the OC sometime tomorrow and start over. I think 1.38 is a bit high for my OC, but it's what I've been using for the past 2 years.

Lots of stuff to catch up on and updates to take care of for applications. Can somebody recommend a good temp monitoring program? I've been using HWMonitor for a while, but I thought I caught someone saying HWinfo was a better program?
Nice. You should post up a couple pictures.

My friend also bought a 1070 strix this week. I should ask him how he likes it.

About temp monitoring, I always have MSI Afterburner open, so I can check logs there. I also have an overlay in-game using rivatuner, and occasionally I will boot up RealTemp when I want to do some benchmarking.
 

Kito

Member
After looking at pictures it looks like the standoffs are pre installed. Are there any in your case? Can you take a picture of it?

Nevermind, PC has now successfully booted (in the case) and I'm currently installing Windows 10. Embarrassingly simple problem - memory always got unseated when I was building.
 

cwistofu

Member
Can someone guide me on a pretty good 1440p monitor with the works? (144hz, G-sync,etc)

I've been meaning to make the jump but time hasn't been on my side lately.
I just got the Dell S2716DG, seems to be the best for the price range.

It's great.

EDIT: It was down to $465 on Best Buy this weekend, looks like it jumped back up to its regular $699. :/ Not sure on other retailers' prices.
 

Indyana

Member
Not particularly, I think they are the new 'best value' and m2 drives look so cool just hanging out on the motherboard

Oh, I definitely can agree with the bolded. However, my tower doesn't have a window so I might go cheap on the SSD. Thank you.
 

ISee

Member
So I just bought an i5 6600k a few weeks ago and it's finally going to arrive in the next few days, but I see the 7600k is out now... should I return the 6600k and get the newer one, or is there not that much difference?

The 6600k runs at 3.9ghz boost and can (most of the time) be overclocked to 4.5ghz without much trouble.
The 7600k runs at 4.2ghz boost and can (again, most of the time) reach 4.8ghz without much trouble. The 7600k also has 'a better' 4k streaming ready iGPU (actually the only GPU that is 4k netflix streaming ready atm). That's it for the most part, there are no performance benefits (except the faster clock speed).
STILL I'd go for the newer one if you still have the chance to do it without much trouble, just because it is the newer one and because of the slightly better oc potential. But not all 'old' z170 boards are 7600k ready, some need a bios update so you better check if there is an update for your mainboard before ordering the 7600k.
 
The 6600k runs at 3.9ghz boost and can (most of the time) be overclocked to 4.5ghz without much trouble.
The 7600k runs at 4.2ghz boost and can (again, most of the time) reach 4.8ghz without much trouble. The 7600k also has 'a better' 4k streaming ready iGPU (actually the only GPU that is 4k netflix streaming ready atm). That's it for the most part, there are no performance benefits (except the faster clock speed).
STILL I'd go for the newer one if you still have the chance to do it without much trouble, just because it is the newer one and because of the slightly better oc potential. But not all 'old' z170 boards are 7600k ready, some need a bios update so you better check if there is an update for your mainboard before ordering the 7600k.

Thanks for the rundown! I'll see if I can return the 6600k then.
 

appaws

Banned
Made the jump to 1440p!

Nice! Just got the same one myself last week.

Me too! Great deal this past weekend.

I've been running my H100 for 2 years with no problems. You hook it up and that's it. The beauty of AIO kits. With me just going through a cleaning of my rig I will say that you should make sure you stay on top of dust that may accumulate on the radiator. This depends on what direction you plan to run the fans, but I was running them as an intake and the amount of dust I witnessed on my radiator today was shocking. The entire thing was covered in it. Other than that though they are maintenance free.

Unless something leaks!

What!? No custom water for you?

Not particularly, I think they are the new 'best value' and m2 drives look so cool just hanging out on the motherboard

I love it. Performance is the same with the crucial SATA one I got, but since I am obsessed with looks and cable management, not having those extra sata and power cables in my case is priceless!
 

Bloodember

Member
If I do a clean install of my SSD how will I re-enble Windows 10? Do I have to buy a new copy? I upgraded from 7.
Just put the CD key from Windows 7 in and it should re activate, you may have to call Microsoft. If you do just tell them you had to change your motherboard and they'll reactive windows for you.
 

Kito

Member
I have an X61 on an mini ITX and a X41 on another mini ITX.

What software do you use on the Kraken coolers?

My PC was nice and quiet, CPU at 30C, until I installed this CAM cancer. It autosets Kraken to 'Silent Mode', which makes the pump go from silent to loud, and there are only 2 other modes i.e. no real options.
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
If anyone has more suggestions for OP updates please PM me thankssssssssss
Do M.2 SSDs offer real improvements over SATA for gaming and Windows?

I've been hearing they aren't that good and sometimes even worse. However, everyone in this thread seems to be looking for one. So I'm a little confused.
Not really... for now.
http://techreport.com/review/30813/samsung-960-pro-2tb-ssd-reviewed/5

If you're doing heavy video stuff it's basically mandatory over a regular SSD.

Just frees up more space for the computer and same price.
 

Bloodember

Member
What software do you use on the Kraken coolers?

My PC was nice and quiet, CPU at 30C, until I installed this CAM cancer. It autosets Kraken to 'Silent Mode', which makes the pump go from silent to loud, and there are only 2 other modes i.e. no real options.
I actually use the cam software, but I use a custom fan curve that uses water temp not CPU temp. Neither pump is loud either.
 
asking this again to see if anyone has any comments/advice

The Define R5 case can house tower air coolers up to 180mm tall...and the NH-D15 is 165mm tall

One of the fans can be raised 15mm...would that be enough clearance to be able to use the G.Skill Ripjaws RAM? (or the TridentZ type they make I suppose)

Other than the obvious design difference between the Ripjaws V and TridentZ are there any noticeable differences between them? They seem to be around the same price, give or take a couple dollars either way.
 

rrs

Member
Do M.2 SSDs offer real improvements over SATA for gaming and Windows?

I've been hearing they aren't that good and sometimes even worse. However, everyone in this thread seems to be looking for one. So I'm a little confused.
there's two kinds of M.2 drives: NVMe and SATA. NVMe is awesome magic that makes for fast drives in ways that don't consist of expensive pci slot boards, such as the 960 PRO and 600p (beats read speeds of anything SATA based at high end sata prices). Then you have the SATA based drives, which are just, well, SATA drives in a small form factor.
 

Celcius

°Temp. member
asking this again to see if anyone has any comments/advice

I think you should be fine with RipJaws + Define R5 + the NH-D15.
(My main rig has RipJawsV & a NH-D14 (not the D15, but very similar), and over the weekend I did another build for someone using RipJawsX inside a R5 case, so I'm familiar with these components).

I think the ripjaws heatspreaders are lower/shorter for greater compatibility and the trident heatspreaders are more for looks.
http://www.gskill.com/en/faq/DRAM_Memory
"Q: How tall are the memory modules?
A: The height of the memory modules are listed on each of the product webpages.

Trident Z: 44mm (1.73in)
Ripjaws V: 42mm (1.65in)
Ripjaws 4: 40mm (1.58in)

TridentX: 54mm (2.13in) with fin; 39mm (1.54in) without fin
RipjawsX: 40mm (1.58in)
RipjawsZ: 40mm (1.58in)
Ripjaws: 40mm (1.58in)
Sniper: 42mm (1.65in)
ECO: 32mm (1.26in)
ARES: 33mm (1.30in)"

Also notice here: http://www.gskill.com/en/catalog/desktop-memory how for the ripjaws they say "designed for maximum compatibility" and for the trident they just talk about performance.
When I upgraded form RipJawsX, I also chose RipJawsV over TridentZ due to the heatspreaders. (and ripjaws performs great by the way :)) But both the RipJawsX and RipJawsV have fit just fine under my NH-D14 over the years, and I think the cooler would still fit fine in the R5.
 
I think you should be fine with RipJaws + Define R5 + the NH-D15.
(My main rig has RipJawsV & a NH-D14 (not the D15, but very similar), and over the weekend I did another build for someone using RipJawsX inside a R5 case, so I'm familiar with these components).

I think the ripjaws heatspreaders are lower/shorter for greater compatibility and the trident heatspreaders are more for looks.
http://www.gskill.com/en/faq/DRAM_Memory
"Q: How tall are the memory modules?
A: The height of the memory modules are listed on each of the product webpages.

Trident Z: 44mm (1.73in)
Ripjaws V: 42mm (1.65in)
Ripjaws 4: 40mm (1.58in)

TridentX: 54mm (2.13in) with fin; 39mm (1.54in) without fin
RipjawsX: 40mm (1.58in)
RipjawsZ: 40mm (1.58in)
Ripjaws: 40mm (1.58in)
Sniper: 42mm (1.65in)
ECO: 32mm (1.26in)
ARES: 33mm (1.30in)"

Also notice here: http://www.gskill.com/en/catalog/desktop-memory how for the ripjaws they say "designed for maximum compatibility" and for the trident they just talk about performance.
When I upgraded form RipJawsX, I also chose RipJawsV over TridentZ due to the heatspreaders. (and ripjaws performs great by the way :)) But both the RipJawsX and RipJawsV have fit just fine under my NH-D14 over the years, and I think the cooler would still fit fine in the R5.

thank you for all of that
 
asking this again to see if anyone has any comments/advice

Noctua should have drawings showing clearance for ram. They're pretty good with stuff like that. I would also look at the user manual for the Fractal case you're interested in and they might also have drawings and measurements that could come in handy.
 

AkumaNiko

Member
Im upgrading my wifes PC and need a tip. Will a 550-600w w/ 49a +12v rail be enough to power this set up:

i5 6500
SSD
HD
8gb ram
GTX 1070
5 fans?

shes going from a FX6300/GTX 970
 

kmfdmpig

Member
I should be able to help. Could you post a picture of the closet and give us the brand and model number of each of the boxes in there? Some (or all) of them might be ethernet switches, but there are some more esoteric things which can be run over cat cable (such as home automation systems), so it's worth knowing what you'll want to keep.

Thanks!

Yes, I'll be able to share pictures once I get the keys, although that will be a few weeks.

We're leasing, so I probably won't make any massive changes, but it looks like there were at least two ethernet switches in the enclosure as well as a Directv network link and a landline phone relay or something.

I'll be very appreciative of any help you can offer once I'm in (assuming the current owner doesn't explain it so that a novice like me can understand).
 
How much more life do you guys think I'll realistically get out of my 2600k before I should start thinking about a new build? 2600k/16gb ram/980ti and comfortably gaming at 1440p. Only things I've upgraded since my 2012 build is storage and video card.
 

Celcius

°Temp. member
How much more life do you guys think I'll realistically get out of my 2600k before I should start thinking about a new build? 2600k/16gb ram/980ti and comfortably gaming at 1440p. Only things I've upgraded since my 2012 build is storage and video card.

That depends... are you aiming for 60 fps or 144 fps?
Also, what speed is your 2600k running at?
 
That depends... are you aiming for 60 fps or 144 fps?
Also, what speed is your 2600k running at?
4.6ghz with a custom water loop. The only game I feel I need 144/165fps is Overwatch as its the only competitive game I play but my graphics are set to low with that game.

Ideally I think it'd be nice to play some games at above 60fps, Witcher 3 comes to mind, but I'm not nitpicky at all.
 
How much more life do you guys think I'll realistically get out of my 2600k before I should start thinking about a new build? 2600k/16gb ram/980ti and comfortably gaming at 1440p. Only things I've upgraded since my 2012 build is storage and video card.

Depending on what you play, maybe 2-3 years?
 

Celcius

°Temp. member
4.6ghz with a custom water loop. The only game I feel I need 144/165fps is Overwatch as its the only competitive game I play but my graphics are set to low with that game.

Ideally I think it'd be nice to play some games at above 60fps, Witcher 3 comes to mind, but I'm not nitpicky at all.

I personally just upgraded from a 2600k to a 7700k just because I had the itch to upgrade. My 2600k @ 4.6ghz still ran all of my games great (1080p @ 60 hz). At 1440p you'll be more limited by your videocard than the cpu. I think you should still be fine for a while with that overclocked 2600k.
Also just fyi, before, I was running a 2600k @ 4.6ghz with 2133mhz ddr3, and even at stock the 7700k is significantly faster in cpu benchmarks. The only gaming benchmark that I've run is the FFXIV Heavensward benchmark @ 1080p / max settings / dx11 and my score went up maybe a 100 points or so but I was still mainly just limited by my videocard. This is why I think for higher res gaming as long as your cpu is overclocked then you'll mostly be limited by your videocard for the time being.
 
I personally just upgraded from a 2600k to a 7700k just because I had the itch to upgrade. My 2600k @ 4.6ghz still ran all of my games great (1080p @ 60 hz). At 1440p you'll be more limited by your videocard than the cpu. I think you should still be fine for a while with that overclocked 2600k.
Also just fyi, before, I was running a 2600k @ 4.6ghz with 2133mhz ddr3, and even at stock the 7700k is significantly faster in cpu benchmarks. The only gaming benchmark that I've run is the FFXIV Heavensward benchmark @ 1080p / max settings / dx11 and my score went up maybe a 100 points or so but I was still mainly just limited by my videocard. This is why I think for higher res gaming as long as your cpu is overclocked then you'll mostly be limited by your videocard for the time being.
Thanks for the opinion. I'm having the same itch, it's just super fun in general building a pc.

Funny you mention 14 since me and the wife both play. A big reason I've been thinking about a new build with tax returns looming is getting her off the Ps4 by giving her my old rig and building myself a new one. But honestly everything I've thrown at my PC has run exceptionally well at 1440 which is making it kind of a hard decision to justify.
 

Celcius

°Temp. member
One small rant for tonight... you all know how when your computer is POSTing and some videocards (not all, but some) display their own bios info on the screen for a sec or two before your motherboard bios POST screen shows up? Why is this a thing in 2016-2017? I know it's only 1 or 2 seconds but still, faster boot time = better.

Ended up getting an Asus 1070 Strix today. I was originally going to get a 1060 to hold me over until the release of the 1080ti or to see what Vega has to offer, but when I was in Microcenter, felt better going tthe 1070s way. My machine hasn't been used or turned on for that matter in over 3 months due to me not having a GPU. Did a bunch of stuff today once I got into the machine. As I mentioned it's been awhile:


  • Cleaned the rig. It was full of dust. The intakes, the H100, PSU fan. It was awful. I spent a good amount of time taking care of that and wiping everything down.

  • Changed the orientation of the H100 and switched the cooling setup from intake to exhaust. Decided to keep the push/pull setup. In total I've got 3x 120mm intake fans in the front of the case, 4x exhaust on the H100, and 1x 140mm exhaust in the back.

  • Applied new thermal paste to the CPU. First time in a long time that's been done. My CPU temps are in the 25-28c range and that's with manual voltage @ 1.38 @ 4.5ghz, 4930k 6 core. I'm actually going to reset the OC sometime tomorrow and start over. I think 1.38 is a bit high for my OC, but it's what I've been using for the past 2 years.

Lots of stuff to catch up on and updates to take care of for applications. Can somebody recommend a good temp monitoring program? I've been using HWMonitor for a while, but I thought I caught someone saying HWinfo was a better program?

Nice going on the 1070 over the 1060. You sold both of the maxwell titan X's? (I know you had sold one but I thought you still had one, guess I was out of the loop lol).
As far as CPU temp monitoring, I always use Realtemp and you can grab the latest version here: https://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/2089/real-temp-3-70
For GPU temp monitoring, I like to use EVGA Precision (although MSI afterburner is also good).
 
Hey guys. So with tax returns I am going to finally build a new PC! Current has lasted me 8+ years, but it has been struggling with the newer games. I'm planning on going Mini ITX this time around and it will be quite the difference as the current is full tower haha.

Any part tweaks recommended?
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/84ByQV

The case will be the SilverStone Raven RVZ02B. If anyone has this case, I'd love to know if there's room for one of those all-in-one liquid cooling CPU heatsinks, like the H75. I've never done any kind of water cooling so maybe I'm naive...
 

Vipu

Banned
Thanks for the opinion. I'm having the same itch, it's just super fun in general building a pc.

Funny you mention 14 since me and the wife both play. A big reason I've been thinking about a new build with tax returns looming is getting her off the Ps4 by giving her my old rig and building myself a new one. But honestly everything I've thrown at my PC has run exceptionally well at 1440 which is making it kind of a hard decision to justify.

Your lowest fps will go up for sure if you upgrade cpu so there is that.
Sure you might not get more high fps but those dips and avg should go up.
 

Husker86

Member
I'm having such a hard time deciding on a monitor.

I don't game much, but for some reason heavily weigh gaming use for a lot of my PC part decisions.

I mostly use my PC for software development and some light media editing. I've settled on IPS for sure, no matter how good of colors some newer TN panels are said to have.

1440p 144/165hz vs 4k 60hz. This is what I keep falling back to. If I exclude Gsync, the 4k would be far cheaper and I'd get a better monitor for what I use my PC most for. However, I am very hesitant to buy a 60hz monitor because of all the "this has changed gaming" I read people saying about high frame rate monitors.

4k downside is I have a 6800k/1070 8GB. Would Gsync almost be required to enjoy 4k gaming? Or would I just have to settle for running games at lower resolutions? I've read some pretty bad impressions about running games at lower than native resolution. Would this even potentially be a downgrade from 1080p in any way if I were forced to run at lower than native resolution?

I don't play FPS much (I always try to get into them but end up stopping after sucking so bad...don't really give myself a chance to get better). Witcher 3 is the current game I'm playing, with some Just Cause 3 thrown in. I mention that because I don't know if the high frame rate will benefit me in games that don't require twitch reactions.

I don't mind spending $700-800 on a monitor, but if I do, it needs to be one I won't regret getting in a couple years.

Not sure if there is a question in any of that, but just curious to hear more impressions of 4k and/or high frame rate.
 
Hey guys. So with tax returns I am going to finally build a new PC! Current has lasted me 8+ years, but it has been struggling with the newer games. I'm planning on going Mini ITX this time around and it will be quite the difference as the current is full tower haha.

Any part tweaks recommended?
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/84ByQV

The case will be the SilverStone Raven RVZ02B. If anyone has this case, I'd love to know if there's room for one of those all-in-one liquid cooling CPU heatsinks, like the H75. I've never done any kind of water cooling so maybe I'm naive...
There's no room for any fans in the case so liquid/water cooling is out of the question. Also, you'll need to switch the GPU to a blower style one because otherwise there will be heat issues. On mobile or I'd link a replacement card.
 

Necrovex

Member
What's the overall opinion on PC Gamer's recommendation for their $1250 build? I want to start buying my parts in pieces over the next couple months (cannot build computer until March), so would there be any sites I could utilize to keep an eye out for sales on certain components?

Link below is the PC Gamer recommendation:

http://www.pcgamer.com/best-gaming-pc/

P.S. Anyone looking for a new monitor should check out the Buy Sell thread. A gaffer is selling some top notch monitors for incredible prices.
 
I'm planning to buy a new PC in the next month. I'm thinking, instead of going with an unlocked i5 7600k + z270 motherboard like suggested, I would go with a non k i7-7700 + B250 motherboard. Is that a good idea? I'm thinking I would save a few by cheaping out on a motherboard and also not having to buy an aftermarket CPU cooler, but still have an i7. Thanks.



  • Intel i5 7600k 4C/4T @3.8 - 252.08
    [*]
    Asrock Fatal1ty Z270 Gaming K4 - 158.35
  • Kingston HyperX Fury 2x8gb 2400 16gb - 110.19
  • CPU cooler - 30.00

    total 550.62



  • Intel i7 7700 4C/8T @3.6 - 323.53
  • Asrock Fatal1ty B250 Gaming K4 - 111.39
  • Kingston HyperX Fury 2x8gb 2400 16gb - 110.19
  • stock cooler - 0.00

    total 545.11
 
I finished my new build! In a very proud moment, it booted up to windows login screen on first power switch press (I used SSD from old comp along with the new).

i7 7700k @ 4.20Ghz
32gb ram
GTX 1080

It wasn't perfect though:
- I put gtx in wrong pci-e slot. PCIE x16_2 when correct one was PCIE x16_1 --> motherboard & windows didn't recognise it. This was easily fixed.
- I put in 32gb memory but windows & motherboard only use 16gb. All RAM sticks are identical. Haven't found a reason for this yet.
- CPU idle temp @ 35C or so, with 100% CPU load a steady temp of 80-85C during long time period. ~60-70C under light load (25-50% or so). Motherboard has 32C at all times.

Are CPU temps too high? Wondering if I did the cooling wrong or if this is normal for this CPU. I'm using this for cooling: http://noctua.at/en/nh-d15.html

edit--
Looking up info online, looks like 80-85C under 100% load is normal for this cpu
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...i7-7700k-i7-7700-i5-7600k-i5-7600,4870-8.html
 

SpacLock

Member
So all of my components arrived yesterday and I'm excited for my first ever build. Opened every box, all looks great. Realize I'm missing something... oh, the case never showed up. Something happened with Amazon and my case was delayed!

Now I have to wait!
 

Vipu

Banned
I'm planning to buy a new PC in the next month. I'm thinking, instead of going with an unlocked i5 7600k + z270 motherboard like suggested, I would go with a non k i7-7700 + B250 motherboard. Is that a good idea? I'm thinking I would save a few by cheaping out on a motherboard and also not having to buy an aftermarket CPU cooler, but still have an i7. Thanks.



  • Intel i5 7600k 4C/4T @3.8 - 252.08
    [*]
    Asrock Fatal1ty Z270 Gaming K4 - 158.35
  • Kingston HyperX Fury 2x8gb 2400 16gb - 110.19
  • CPU cooler - 30.00

    total 550.62



  • Intel i7 7700 4C/8T @3.6 - 323.53
  • Asrock Fatal1ty B250 Gaming K4 - 111.39
  • Kingston HyperX Fury 2x8gb 2400 16gb - 110.19
  • stock cooler - 0.00

    total 545.11

You should get 7700K and stock cooler for now and get some better cooler later.
 

jediyoshi

Member
So all of my components arrived yesterday and I'm excited for my first ever build. Opened every box, all looks great. Realize I'm missing something... oh, the case never showed up. Something happened with Amazon and my case was delayed!

Now I have to wait!

On top of the motherboard box is the purest case there is.
 
Upgraded from a Cherry rubber dome keyboard to a Zowie Celeritas w/ Cherry MX Browns. While it feels nice for typing and gaming, there's not a world of difference tbh. Great build quality, though.

I tested a keyboard with MX Reds beforehand and the switches were way too mushy for me. What am I missing? Should I have gone with MX Blues? I was worried they'd be too loud, but I do write quite a lot and feel I could really get to like the clicky feedback.

On another note: Now that I have a "good" keyboard, what's a good palm-grip mouse? I don't need extra RTS/MMO keys and I don't want the stereotypical gamer look.
 

Rufus

Member
I tested a keyboard with MX Reds beforehand and the switches were way too mushy for me. What am I missing?
They've become the go-to 'gaming' switch because of their linear activation.The thinking here is: No-resistance > easier to push > better for gaming
 

ced

Member
I'm cross posting from the Cemu thread, thought this might be a better one.

Alright so I've got a media box that isn't bad specs besides video.

I've googled but it's getting frustrating, can you all tell me what model video card to get that will meet the minimum requirement for this? It needs to be a small form factor I think if that's even possible.

Reading the OP I guess I need to look for "An AMD or Nvidia GPU with OpenGL 4.5 support and 6 GB of RAM is recommended..."
 
I'm cross posting from the Cemu thread, thought this might be a better one.

Emulation is much less about GPU capability, and much more about CPU. You could have a 750 Ti for all it mattered, so long as it was paired with a good quad core. The GPU just needs to be capable of the right shading methods.
 
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