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IGN Posts Up More Project Cafe Hardware Power Rumors
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
disappeared
Banned
ReyVGM said:
This is where I beg to differ.
I'm stealing something I posted in an older Zelda art thread:
Case in point, look at these old art pieces from the first Legend of Zelda. Some are official, some are not (I believe)...
Now let's assume that only the first couple of those are official. That still speaks volumes about what I believe Nintendo wanted Zelda to be in the first place. The obvious limitation was the NES hardware. Since then they've been expanding the world and dungeons, but not to the extent that the actual Zelda universe could indeed cover.
The maps in the 3D Zeldas have been catered to the aging Ocarina of Time formula. Collect three important items, move on, collect a few more items, and move on.
The original NES Zelda dropped you in the middle of fucking nowhere, and said "go explore." You had no idea where to go or how you were going to get there. The newer games have given you tutorial starting areas and the applicable items to make your way out into the main map.
The core element of discovery and feeling lost has been forgotten.
A map the size of say, Morrowind or Oblivion would - if properly done - throw you right back into that feeling of truly being unaware of what lies ahead.
Imagine if, once you obtained the Hookshot, you could do it all over the damned map. Almost anywhere you pleased. You could really explore as opposed to being guided through narrow(ish) paths just to get the next quest item. You could complete villages and dungeons in an order you wanted to. And if something was too difficult, or you didn't have the appropriate gear, you'd have to come back later or find an alternate route around.
The last picture there, the castle on the mountain, speaks volumes about what a potential Zelda game could be all about. Maybe you want to go straight to that mountain, forgoing anything else in your way. Keep in mind that the NES Zelda did let you accomplish goals and dungeons in a seemingly unscripted order.
I think there's a ton of potential with the franchise and its world, but I think the designers really need to rethink the way a Zelda game is constructed.
herzogzwei1989
Banned
disappeared said:
I completely agree, great post!.
disappeared said:
Don't you think you're reading too much into these images. Like for all games, the concept art fuels the imagination of fans and allows us to fill the images with gameplay possibilities that are never fulfilled by the actual game. Nintendo has been making Zelda games with very consistent formulas/structures for some time now. Nothing tells me they've gotten away from their original intention or have somehow been unable to fulfill their dream of what Zelda should be.
disappeared
Banned
artwalknoon said:
That's understandable, and I agree to an extent. Concept art is always just that, a concept. Perhaps I'm being too hopeful, but some day I would love to see a Zelda game - or hell, ANY adventure game - do that.
herzogzwei1989
Banned
Boney said:
Sorry!
caligula13
Gold Member
i am really looking forward to E3. i want to know what nintendo is going to push as their new thing. if it's just a stronger hardware with some classic controller with touch-screen then maybe i will pass. i don't know.
i didn't really want to buy the DS successor but it happened to be in 3D and i love 3D so now i am a happy owner of the 3DS. let's see if Wii2 will win me over.
i didn't really want to buy the DS successor but it happened to be in 3D and i love 3D so now i am a happy owner of the 3DS. let's see if Wii2 will win me over.
disappeared
Banned
I just realized I should have posted this in the HD Zelda thread. I'm kind of derailing things here.
Lupin the Third
Member
caligula13 said:
I think it's going to be "freedom of functionality" or "flexible use." Being able to, say, navigate and play the console from another room on the controller screen while Mom or Dad watches a Blu-ray Disc on their otherwise dusty PS3 seems like a good marketing scheme. Playing a 4-player Super Mario 64/Galaxy-a-like with dedicated screens for each user could have great co-op potential if researched and executed properly. I really think "freedom of use" will be their big selling point, as well as Wii compatibility.
I know it's been suggested before, but I would not be surprised if there IS no new "motion control" solution because the Wii Remote+ is the standard motion controller for Wii2/Stream/Project Cafe. This would be a strong selling point for owners of the existing Wii hardware, because they wouldn't have to buy new controllers for newer motion-compatible games. Wii Remote+ is actually pretty accurate, too (probably not far off from Move, but not quite as accurate as the Sixense PC controller line), and coupld probably work for another generation unless Nintendo wanted to pull an MS/Sony and issue a new motion control solution halfway into the console's lifespan.
Lupin the Wolf said:
Honestly, the only way they're going to be able to push a secondary controller is if it's one that's already common. It'll just be too frustrating having to deal with buying two different types of $60+ controllers for multiple people. Continuing to produce Wiimotes and selling them at a lower price is the best solution.
I hope they don't drop motion-sensing technology completely. I'd love to play a decent FPS with them.
Error Macro
Member
Boney said:
well, you never know... they resurrected Pilotwings for the 3DS launch.
...
oh god, please no Wave Race Resort!
caligula13
Gold Member
Darryl said:
well, i don't think you will play a decent FPS with the wiimote on Wii2 because 3rd parties will just port their games to the Wii2 and use the new controller for other things. even on ps3 3rd parties didn't embrace move for FPS.
bgassassin
Member
Lupin the Wolf said:
I would expect them to reuse the Wiimote+, but I could have sworn that it was mentioned they were going to have motion controllers with a higher fidelity than Move.
bgassassin said:
If we have a new motion controller set up, a new dual analog traditional controller with a 6" screen, and an hd console capable of streaming full games to said screen then the whole thing is looking to hit the $450 IGN put at the high end of their range. I hope Nintendo doesn't pull a Sony, in fact I hope they don't pull a ds----->3ds, getting over confident about following up one of the most successful consoles of all time, overestimating the draw of their new hook (3d for 3ds, whatever it is for the cafe), and pricing themselves right out of most consumers' comfort levels.
bgassassin
Member
artwalknoon said:
I wouldn't attribute it to over confidence, but trying to please everyone. And that doesn't tend to go over well in any situation.
Lupin the Third
Member
bgassassin said:
I do remember that rumor, but I can't remember where it came from. I just remember it being among the initial few that made us go "They can't ALL be true!"
caligula13
Gold Member
that's why this console doesn't make sense right now. nintendo will never ever release hardware for 400 USD.
caligula13 said:
I don't think they're gonna kill of motion controllers, but the only real way to guarantee that that option will get supported (dual analog will get supported regardless if it's in the box or not) is to make sure everyone has one. Including a remote and nunchuck in the box will make sure all bases are covered. If they don't include it in the box, then it's all but dead to most people.
caligula13 said:
Well, didn't a lot of us say Nintendo would never release a handheld for $250 either? And that was a pretty good argument considering their last home console launched at that price (Wii $250).
So I could totally see Nintendo having a very impressive E3 and thinking that $400 would be a good premium to put on their new, exciting, high tech home console. Also as with the 3ds Nintendo said core gamers would buy it first so the higher price was more digestable. Obviously they were wrong. Can Nintendo make the same mistake twice? imo yes.
But do they really need motion controls to be supported out of the box? It's not like 3rd parties loved motion controls. Nintendo might just release games specifically tailored for motion controls and bundle the controller with each one of those releases , like they did with the balance board.
Lupin the Third
Member
Found the Motion Control rumor thanks to BlackNMild's "Rumor Consolidation 2011" post on the NWR Forums.
Source: http://www.next-gen.biz/news/sources-confirm-more-details-on-wii-successor
The latter part of this rumor was the one I was most hoping for, but I am okay with "gimmicks" that serve a real gameplay purpose (GBA connectivity sort of functions, for instance).
Source: http://www.next-gen.biz/news/sources-confirm-more-details-on-wii-successor
The latter part of this rumor was the one I was most hoping for, but I am okay with "gimmicks" that serve a real gameplay purpose (GBA connectivity sort of functions, for instance).
artwalknoon said:
The highest I'm willing to spend is $350. I paid that much for a 360 and that is my limit for any game console. I imagine the new system will be between $299-$349. Which I find acceptable.
maeda said:
There's hasn't been a console released that has had full on motion controls (the Dual Shock 3 doesn't count) and HD graphic fidelity and power. Virtually all of the major creative minds in the industry didn't develop or have any interest in developing for the Wii. If the Cafe has motion controls in the box, then they would have the opportunity to go full bore with it since they know everyone who owns the console has the means to play without having to buy something else.
EuropeOG said:
I love Metroid, especially the Prime games, but I sorta agree with him. Shooting a door and then waiting a couple seconds for it to load the next room drew me out of the experience a bit - not as much as waiting for a loading screen might have, but still, a bit. Similarly, shooting doors to move from one natural area to another natural area made no sense, and similarly made me think, "But yeah, I guess they have to have these doors because of loading and stuff."
I think Retro could make an even more engrossing world if they weren't bound by the restriction of smaller rooms connected by hidden loading doors. Imagine if, say, in the Tallon Overworld equivalent, you could climb to a high point and see the entire area. You see your ship sitting to the east; the wrecked pirate vessel that you explored earlier to the west; an entrance to the caverns below to the north; and the jungle you're heading to next off in the distance to the south. Then you could screw attack as far as the ability lets you and land in any one of the "rooms" within reach.
Then they could still use the traditional door structure when you're in an artificial structure, like some ruins or a space pirate base.
Buckethead said:
If you don't like backtracking, then Metroid isn't for you. What you're saying is close to, "Yeah, I like Halo, but do they really need all the guns?"
Backtracking and exploring are the point of Metroid. The feeling of, "Oh hey, a neat new power-up, I think I saw a place where I could use this a while back," then making your way back there and finding an energy tank - that's part of the appeal. Revisiting an early area late in the game and destroying all the enemies in one shot, and simply jumping over or around obstacles that blocked your path earlier, traipsing through rooms in mere seconds even though they took minutes to pass the first time through - also part of the appeal. If visiting places you've already visited automatically makes you utter the word "Backtracking" as if it's the worst crime a game could ever commit, then the series just isn't for you.
And I've never played Mass Effect, but if you're saying Metroid should be turned into a dialogue-heavy RPG then I'm gonna go ahead and call you completely insane.
caligula13
Gold Member
artwalknoon said:
well, i never said things like that about the 3DS.
although they probably could release a console for 350 USD and sell it beside the Wii like they are doing it with the 3DS. i know everyone is calling the 3DS a failure but i am sure Nintendo doesn't care as long as DS is selling well. with the time the 3DS will replace the DS and they will not have to cut the price.
Sigh, I've only read the first three pages of this thread, but I can tell that people are getting their hopes way too high. People give some rumors way too much credit, and they overestimate the costs reduction of mass production while totally forget to add the massive R&D budget (Nintendo increases the R&D significantly) in the calculation. I think the console will rape the first buyers' wallet before Nintendo goes down with price when the competition brings their consoles in the game.
herzogzwei1989
Banned
I'm betting on a $299 price point for the U.S.
herzogzwei1989 said:
$299 would be a very good price, given what we know and don't know about the console (meaning anything at all), I think consumers would be very comfortable with that price for a brand new, hd, Nintendo console with a good hook. But if we had to predict a price now I would say $350 or above. I honestly see Nintendo being a little too overconfident/greedy following the supermassively successful Wii.
shadyspace
Banned
KevinCow said:
I'm really conflicted over who I'd liked to see Metroid Cafe from. On the one hand, getting Retro back on it would be amazing for all the reasons you mentioned and more. On the other, I'd be interested in seeing what Nintendo proper (i.e not Team Ninja) would do with a HD console Metroid release. But then, the absolute worst parts of Other M came from Sakamoto who would almost definitely be involved. But then again, even Reggie has made statements acknowledging Other M's story problems so I could see Sakamoto's narrative issues being reigned in by the higher ups and a bigger focus on immersive storytelling through gameplay (a la Prime 1 and Super Metroid) implemented.
Neo C. said:
If Nintendo waits until their competition brings their consoles out, they're doomed. The biggest advantage they'll have is if they keep costs down enough to get a lot of their systems out of the door and into the right hands quickly. Nintendo sold the Gamecube at a loss to help get them out of the door, and I don't have any doubt that they'll cut their initial profits down a bit to help get these consoles out of the door.
KevinCow said:
And there's always the possibility that this limitation was the reason why Prime felt so greatly paced and tight.
It's amazing how fast people forget that a new console doesn't mean that suddenly all genres lose restrictions. Designers will always be bound by pacing, teaching things to players and the fact that most gamers won't finish your game unless it's very clear what you need to do next. Metroid Prime is something that doesn't exist outside its formula. You can't just slap huge open world into the Prime mechanics and call it a day.
herzogzwei1989
Banned
artwalknoon said:
$299 is the highest price that can be concidered "mass market" for a console and Nintendo will always price for the mass market, even if 3DS should've been $199.
herzogzwei1989
Banned
KevinCow said:
Provided Cafe has sufficent RAM (at least 1 GB), I don't see this being a problem, for the developer of the next Metroid.
Gamecube was the exception, not the rule. And Nintendo made the experience that taking a loss doesn't necessarily give you the advantage in the market. Microsoft and Sony learned the hard way this generation, that taking a loss also means not having the option of price reduction for quite some time, because that's what a loss ultimately is: A credit you take at the beginning and need to pay back in the future.Darryl said:
Looking at the historical data, I won't bet that Nintendo like to lose money on the console.
herzogzwei1989 said:
I can't wait for the price prediction thread for the cafe. The funny thing about $299 being the sweet spot is that the IGN article put the likely price according to their "sources" as between $350 and $450, so already out of the mass market price. That could mean don't trust IGN or it could mean Nintendo is pulling another 3ds. Seriously though I think all hardware manufacturers think that the market has shifted towards being comfortable with higher prices in part because ipods, iphones, tvs, laptops are all so expensive these days yet people are still willing to buy em up. I'm not saying I agree with that but it seems that way.
Buckethead
Banned
The way you set it up is logically fallacious.KevinCow said:
And you're making it overdramatic for the point of your argument.
Every criticism of Metroid is "why did Samus lose all her shit again?".
It's a completely valid criticism and is part of the reason why the Metroid franchise has always been pretty niche.
Going back to Arkham Asylum it made sense within the context of the story for Batman to "backtrack" to get the proper equipment to go after the baddies.
The Joker pulled a fast one on him and he was vulnerable to attack. Now they're going more open world with Arkham City because that shit would be boring as hell every game.
Yet Samus Aran, badass bounty hunter supreme manages to lose her equipment everytime she's on a mission?
She can't fly to the area where the end boss is and ice him with rockets? Give me a break.
8 year old me can see that's just lazy.
Nintendo needs to evolve the franchise. Change up the formula outright.
If that's the case then they've been doing a piss-poor job of that.
Batman's gameplay was supplemented with a little detective work, an awesome combat system, tons of collectibles, and easter eggs.
As much as I love Retro, secluding areas was an awful decision and don't get me started on scanning.
No. That's not what I'm saying.
Backtracking in the context of at least the recent Metroids is complete garbage.
Hey look! A room that can only be solved by Samus' charge ball! Or ice beam!
If you want to have backtracking than at least make it logical for the world the characters inherit.
Don't make it blatantly obvious to go to area X to get upgrade 1 to use it to open area Y.
Mass Effect isn't an RPG (unfortunately). I was talking about a semi-open world with missions in that open up certain areas but allow the ability to explore.
1GB is not sufficient.herzogzwei1989 said:
zoukka said:
What are you rambling about? I didn't say anything about changing any of that stuff. A more open world wouldn't mean you wouldn't still open up new paths as you collected more power-ups.
It's just, instead of having a red door that loads and opens the next room when you shoot it with the plasma beam, you'd have, say, a tangle of vines. Maybe the player's teased early on by being able to see the clearly accessible area through the vines, but just not get to it yet. Then when he gets the plasma beam, he can finally burn down the vines and get there. Functionally identical to a red door, but would help it feel more like one big area, as opposed to two smaller areas. And then, every time you pass through that area from then on, there is no barrier for loading. You just walk on through. Little things like that.
Later on, when you have more power-ups - then all the little things add up, and you get the scenario I described in my last post.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Buckethead said:
Yes it is. You have an imaginary alternate definition of RPG (no doubt involving inventory management or something) that isn't what RPG really means.