Support NeoGAF

[Grampa Simpson]

Exactly. Also, 512MBs just makes no sense looking at Nintendo historically. You'd basically be expecting them to purposefully increase load times on the system. There's reason to complain about cartridges and the mini-GC discs, but a big part of the reason for their existence was to reduce load times. A big point with Wii was getting the system to startup as quickly as possible. Restricting the system to 512MBs would be totally breaking with fundamental historical goals of Nintendo. *mind baffles*

Edit:
Unless I'm just totally misunderstanding the impact of what 512MBs RAM would do to load times/startup times.

If they went for the fastest possible ram availible they could just barely get away with 512. 3/4s of a GB might also be what they settle with.

I've been rather speculative about whether they will have a single unified pool of very fast RAM (GDDR5) or whether they will split it between GPU ram and system ram enabling them to include more ram at the expense of have that extremely fast system ram. I could imagine 512mb of GDDR5 attached to the GPU and 1 gig of DDR3 attached to the CPU to increase the system ram where the very fast stuff isn't needed and leaving that to the GPU.

 

[Lonely1]

As seen with using the 24MBs of 1T-SRAM on GameCube, developers don't care as much about the type of RAM as they do the quantity. If Nintendo is building this with third-party developers being considered, it'd be strange to see them repeat that path.

Well, they did with the 3DS.

As I posted in another thread.

Actually, I still See in the 3DS Nintendo fulfilling their needs and views above everyone else. I believe (Western at least) Developers would have probably preferred a more standard architecture like the original Tegra kit, even if the result weren't better. 3Ds is a very Nintendo-like design: opting for speed instead of quantity for RAM, going for fixed shaders to ease development (on their view, third parties would like prefer UE3, and similar, support), a feature that impacts the performance of the console, going for an older CPU since it was enough. (less need for L2 Cache with the fast RAM), etc..

 

[bgassassin]

Again: "Network services" is a general term for Internet-based features and does not necessarily have anything to do with online play.

Maybe, maybe not. We know how Nintendo is with stuff like that, but let's look at a part of what Iwata said.

I admit that we cannot do business in pace with the changes in the world and the requests from consumers ...

What are the changes in the world? Higher dependence on online connectivity.

Who are the consumers? Gamers.

What do they request? Good online framework.

Now obviously that can't be taken as 100% fact, but when looking at the statement those answers are the most resounding ones. And with the desire of those gamers, Iwata apparently feels they cannot fulfill that on their own.

 

[Oblivion]

Exactly. Also, 512MBs just makes no sense looking at Nintendo historically. You'd basically be expecting them to purposefully increase load times on the system. There's reason to complain about cartridges and the mini-GC discs, but a big part of the reason for their existence was to reduce load times. A big point with Wii was getting the system to startup as quickly as possible. Restricting the system to 512MBs would be totally breaking with fundamental historical goals of Nintendo. *mind baffles*

Edit:
Unless I'm just totally misunderstanding the impact of what 512MBs RAM would do to load times/startup times.

*mentions SSBB ridiculous load times*

As seen with using the 24MBs of 1T-SRAM on GameCube, developers don't care as much about the type of RAM as they do the quantity. If Nintendo is building this with third-party developers being considered, it'd be strange to see them repeat that path.

But the GC had 40 MB total.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

ugh I just had an awful memory of E3 bullshit tech demos for new Hardware

I really hope we do not see too many Cafe Tech Demos and more real games

tech demos suck, they get your hopes up but rarely deliver on a final product

with about a year of dev time to go after E3 I am now dreading the early Tech Demos we will have to endure

 

[Lonely1]

But the GC had 40 MB total.

16 of which were terribly slow and only useful as DD cache.

 

[dwu8991]

ugh I just had an awful memory of E3 bullshit tech demos for new Hardware

I really hope we do not see too many Cafe Tech Demos and more real games

tech demos suck, they get your hopes up but rarely deliver on a final product

with about a year of dev time to go after E3 I am now dreading the early Tech Demos we will have to endure

yeah but that's to be expected.

 

[Kandinsky]

Smash Bros Cafe is pointless without an new online infrastructure

Your face is pointless!

 

[watershed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkMboeHJQoY&
watch this vid about Sony's new AR tech demonstration. As I was watching I wrote up this comment:

"One of the issues with AR is the small screen that its viewed on, mostly 3ds screens, iphones, and android phones. The small screen makes AR an individual gaming experience. The tech in the video is pretty cool by the way. Fixes a lot of the issues the 3ds has. But I wonder how big the tech is that's powering it. I remember one video of a guy running around with a computer strapped to his back and a helmet on his head. Seemed a bit impractical."

But then I realized something, if the cafe controller has a 6" screen, a outward facing camera, and the ability to stream what the camera is seeing to both the 6" screen and the hdtv, Nintendo could greatly expand on AR tech and make it one of the core system features of the cafe. Part of the reason the 3ds' AR is so limited is because all of the processing/heavy lifting is done by the 3ds, a fairly small and limited device. But if the cafe console was actually doing all the processing, data stuff, and streaming that to the controller/camera, I imagine Nintendo could pull off AR similar to the video above. Plus by having what the camera sees displayed on the hdtv as well you eliminate the problem of AR being an individual experience.

Does anybody think this might be a possibility for the cafe?

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I saw this on Go Nintendo's site. People are beginning to speculate about how the design of this E3 invitation card may provide clues about Project Cafe's name and potential streaming feature.

"Note that the imagery used is a combination of the squares with beveled edges we know from the DS family with the blue circles that have appeared in connection with the Wii. Combining them is what appears to be a stream or a wave. This may suggest that the next console will bring home consoles and portables closer together. It also may corroborate that the console will be called Stream, as previous rumours suggested." - source


http://nintendo-revolution.blogspot.com/2011/05/project-cafe-video-fake-e3-invitation.html

Oh I like the point about the stream but is that image even real? Has anyone caught the error in that image?

I'll give you a hint check the TIME

Spoiler

since when was midnight 12PM in Europe?

 

[dwu8991]

What is NOE doing at LA?

 

[disap.ed]

As ridiculous as it is, Starfox and F-Zero would both make excellent tech demos of what the GPU can do. They can be very pretty.

And so would Waverace *hope*

 

[Grampa Simpson]

What is NOE doing at LA?

Talking to European publishers, developers, and journalists. E3 is the big show, and not just for the Americas.

 

[Father_Brain]

What is NOE doing at LA?

...because it's by far the world's largest gaming-focused press event, and there will be plenty of international media there?

 

[dwu8991]

Talking to European publishers, developers, and journalists. E3 is the big show, and not just for the Americas.

I don't recall NOE being at E3 before but sounds good if more games come to PAL land!

 

[Smiles and Cries]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkMboeHJQoY&
watch this vid about Sony's new AR tech demonstration. As I was watching I wrote up this comment:

"One of the issues with AR is the small screen that its viewed on, mostly 3ds screens, iphones, and android phones. The small screen makes AR an individual gaming experience. The tech in the video is pretty cool by the way. Fixes a lot of the issues the 3ds has. But I wonder how big the tech is that's powering it. I remember one video of a guy running around with a computer strapped to his back and a helmet on his head. Seemed a bit impractical."

But then I realized something, if the cafe controller has a 6" screen, a outward facing camera, and the ability to stream what the camera is seeing to both the 6" screen and the hdtv, Nintendo could greatly expand on AR tech and make it one of the core system features of the cafe. Part of the reason the 3ds' AR is so limited is because all of the processing/heavy lifting is done by the 3ds, a fairly small and limited device. But if the cafe console was actually doing all the processing, data stuff, and streaming that to the controller/camera, I imagine Nintendo could pull off AR similar to the video above. Plus by having what the camera sees displayed on the hdtv as well you eliminate the problem of AR being an individual experience.

Does anybody think this might be a possibility for the cafe?

AR is the new thing, Sony calling their own brand SmartAR is annoying arrogant marketing IMO since the tech is just as good as the software written for it.

That being said, who knows what Nintendo will do with Cafe?

AR could very well be part of the controller if the 6inch screen is real but being an individual experience is not a problem but the catch of AR - AR games should be from your own point of view

I could see CAFE providing a "Multiplayer AR experience"

4 Cafe Controllers sending images to the HDTV
each controller having the single player experience but the images merge on the HDTV screen processed by the console

so a 4 player Pokemon AR battle experience is going on in HD on the TV while the 4 players are busy interacting with AR through the 6" screen

we don't know if this thing even uses AR but it would be a smart thing to do

Talking to European publishers, developers, and journalists. E3 is the big show, and not just for the Americas.

all I know is NOE got Xenoblade in English while NOA sat on their arse
that is enough for me to respect NOE more power to them if they attend E3

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Someone before mentioned the possibility of a split RAM pool. I'm thinking maybe 512 MB GDDR5 and 512 MB DDR3? And maybe 20 MB eDRAM as framebuffer.

There's also alot of time until they have to finalize the product. If developers express dissatisfaction w/ the amount after E3, it would be an easy thing to fix.

good point.

 

[EatChildren]

What is NOE doing at LA?

Reps from multiple regional branches will be there to cater to press from their region. E3 is a huge event with press from all around. NoJ and NoA might be the driving force, but NoE and co will be there to help regional press get around and know whats what.

Lots and lots of folk to organise, so a lot of staff are required.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

all I know is NOE got Xenoblade in English while NOA sat on their arse
that is enough for me to respect NOE more power to them if they attend E3

Maybe NOE will try and sell their English version to NOA.....

 

[Shadowlink]

Any Yoshi's Island rumors?

Spoiler

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Maybe NOE will try and sell their English version to NOA.....

well... I'm thinking that Nintendo is still NINTENDO no matter the branch office they have so it would be silly to have to sell it to NOA

it was a region decision a puzzling one but its been done many times before (NOE having games that NOA ignored)

 

[herzogzwei1989]

On the process front, a roadmap has appeared:

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...-2q-20112c-20nm-in-2012-and-14nm-in-2014.aspx

28nm in Q2 2011. I don't see why Cafe's GPU couldn't be 28nm if things go well for AMD's manufacturing partners.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I've been rather speculative about whether they will have a single unified pool of very fast RAM (GDDR5) or whether they will split it between GPU ram and system ram enabling them to include more ram at the expense of have that extremely fast system ram. I could imagine 512mb of GDDR5 attached to the GPU and 1 gig of DDR3 attached to the CPU to increase the system ram where the very fast stuff isn't needed and leaving that to the GPU.

If they were smart they'd just go 1-2 GB pool of GDDR5. My video card has 1GB GDDR5 and modern top of the line GPUs have 1.5-2GB chips in them. 2GB for whole system would not be unreasonable, but this is Nintendo so I'm not expecting higher than 1GB (I want 4GB but that's just a dream).

 

[Meesh]

AR is the new thing, Sony calling their own brand SmartAR is annoying arrogant marketing IMO since the tech is just as good as the software written for it.

Yeah, I saw this coming. "Bringing portable gaming outta the ghetto", "4d", "true 1:1", and "smart AR" are typical Sony 1-ups on anything Nintendo does...can't wait for their response about Cafe when it's shown at E3.

AR could very well be part of the controller if the 6inch screen is real but being an individual experience is not a problem but the catch of AR - AR games should be from your own point of view

I could see CAFE providing a "Multiplayer AR experience"

4 Cafe Controllers sending images to the HDTV
each controller having the single player experience but the images merge on the HDTV screen processed by the console

so a 4 player Pokemon AR battle experience is going on in HD on the TV while the 4 players are busy interacting with AR through the 6" screen

we don't know if this thing even uses AR but it would be a smart thing to do

By rights Cafe should use some of the innovations or at least compliment what 3ds does in spirit, and I hope AR is something that's used more than just for Mii gimmickry. There should be some real in game apps...

...like open heart surgery on my coffee table a la Trauma Center...or...some kind of detective game like hotel dusk where the AR cards are clues you examine in a room you took a picture of with your controller? I dunno...maybe...Persona? where the AR cards are spirits you need to battle before you can recruit them??? That would be kinda trippy...

 

[Grampa Simpson]

On the process front, a roadmap has appeared:

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/Data/2011_4_27/AMD-Fusion-Future-Unveiled-28nm-in-2Q-2011-20nm-2012-14nm-2014/AMD_Fusion_28nm_20nm_14nm_6.jpg[img]

[url]http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2011/4/27/amd-fusion-tapeouts-unveiled-28nm-in-2q-20112c-20nm-in-2012-and-14nm-in-2014.aspx[/url]

28nm in Q2 2011. I don't see why Cafe's GPU couldn't be 28nm[B] if things go well for AMD's manufacturing partners[/B].[/QUOTE]
That's a big goddamn if. If they were originally aiming for holiday 2011, they'd have to only rely on 40nm. *IF* they manage to die shrink to 28nm for launch, bonus for them, but that should not be relied upon.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

If they were smart they'd just go 1-2 GB pool of GDDR5. My video card has 1GB GDDR5 and modern top of the line GPUs have 1.5-2GB chips in them. 2GB for whole system would not be unreasonable, but this is Nintendo so I'm not expecting higher than 1GB (I want 4GB but that's just a dream).

2 GB would be utterly fantastic. That's 4x more than the current HD consoles. I don't expect Xbox3/PS4 to have more than 4 GB. Hell even if Cafe had 1 GB plus some embedded memory, I'd be happy.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

That's a big goddamn if. If they were originally aiming for holiday 2011, they'd have to only rely on 40nm. *IF* they manage to die shrink to 28nm for launch, bonus for them, but that should not be relied upon.

I realize it's a BIG IF.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I realize it's a BIG IF.

don't consoles often move to the newer process later anyway to lower costs?

 

[Mr_Brit]

On the process front, a roadmap has appeared:

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...-2q-20112c-20nm-in-2012-and-14nm-in-2014.aspx

28nm in Q2 2011. I don't see why Cafe's GPU couldn't be 28nm if things go well for AMD's manufacturing partners.

This roadmap just states when AMD plan to bring out an APU on a specific manufacturing process and not when that process will be ready. Wii 2 will almost definitely launch at 28nm.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

don't consoles often move to the newer process later anyway to lower costs?

Yeah they do, but whatever process they start on limits what kind of a GPU it'll have for life. Even though they move to smaller and smaller process as time goes by.

 

[Darryl]

I noticed that thread on Takahashi Meijin quitting, which was making me think about how there's no way that Nintendo is letting Hudson Soft do the next Mario Party game, especially since they've pretty much already internalized the Party series. Is anyone else hopeful of what Nintendo might do internally to the Mario Party line? Pretty much every Mario Party game up until now has been exactly the same. I hope they change it up a little bit. :/

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Yeah they do, but whatever process they start on limits what kind of a GPU it'll have for life. Even though they move to smaller and smaller process as time goes by.

oh well a life-cycle has to start somewhere just think 5 years from now Nintendo will be doing this all over again lol

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Speaking of Hudson, I'd kill for a 2D sprite-based HD Bomberman. I've never been the same since Hi-Ten Bomberman never became a commercial product. No matter what's inside Cafe, it should be capable of a simple sprite-based game at 1080i/p. I'd actually sell my soul if such a game was made, and is as appealing as Hi-Ten Bomberman.

 

[watershed]

I noticed that thread on Takahashi Meijin quitting, which was making me think about how there's no way that Nintendo is letting Hudson Soft do the next Mario Party game, especially since they've pretty much already internalized the Party series. Is anyone else hopeful of what Nintendo might do internally to the Mario Party line? Pretty much every Mario Party game up until now has been exactly the same. I hope they change it up a little bit. :/

Nintendo will probably give it to the people that made wii party, or the new wii play motion or something. Nintendo has plenty of partners and internal teams that can make a good minigame collection. Hell Square-Enix made Mario Sports Mix, who woulda figured that?

 

[Mr_Brit]

That's a big goddamn if. If they were originally aiming for holiday 2011, they'd have to only rely on 40nm. *IF* they manage to die shrink to 28nm for launch, bonus for them, but that should not be relied upon.

Huh? 28nm parts from AMD and nvidia will be out in Q3 2011, they could theoretically launch late 2011 at 28nm but supplies would be low. Launching in 2012 means they'll definitely launch at 28nm and supply by then should be quite high.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Huh? 28nm parts from AMD and nvidia will be out in Q3 2011, they could theoretically launch late 2011 at 28nm but supplies would be low. Launching in 2012 means they'll definitely launch at 28nm and supply by then should be quite high.

Hope you're right. Nintendo could get a cooler, more efficient (and more powerful) GPU if AMD could get them a 28nm part. 40nm limits things alot, I think, as it's years old.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I noticed that thread on Takahashi Meijin quitting, which was making me think about how there's no way that Nintendo is letting Hudson Soft do the next Mario Party game, especially since they've pretty much already internalized the Party series. Is anyone else hopeful of what Nintendo might do internally to the Mario Party line? Pretty much every Mario Party game up until now has been exactly the same. I hope they change it up a little bit. :/

ah Nintendo is not above funding a new studio for this dude if he was the most important factor for Mario Party's success. You would be better off starting a new topic on this, Mario Party and Cafe does not excite me at all. It is a cash in, it does not have to change that much. It would not shock me to see Ubisoft making Mario Party in the future though, mark my words

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Yeah they do, but whatever process they start on limits what kind of a GPU it'll have for life. Even though they move to smaller and smaller process as time goes by.

I wonder how late they could make adjustments to the GPU. I'm assuming that it if it's around a year out, it's prototype is either taped out or about to be. There will be a certain point where they can adjust clock speed and little else - I expect that part to happen late in the game, and will be more dependent on what processes are available. For that reason I rather hope that they'll be able to launch at 28nm and make their final clock speed decisions based on that.

I would suspect they've already made their decision on the number of shaders units.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Nintendo will probably give it to the people that made wii party, or the new wii play motion or something.

NdCube made both those, and they're actually most of the people who used to make the Mario Party games at Hudson.

I think we'll see Mario Party continue as a "one per platform" series, like Mario Kart. It already kind of did on Wii/DS.

 

[disap.ed]

I think this could be a reason why Nintendo had to postbone the launch to 2012. IIRC 28nm production should have started already earlier this year (according to older roadmaps).

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Huh? 28nm parts from AMD and nvidia will be out in Q3 2011, they could theoretically launch late 2011 at 28nm but supplies would be low. Launching in 2012 means they'll definitely launch at 28nm and supply by then should be quite high.

They expect that they will be. I expect that they will be. You expect that they will be. That doesn't mean that they will be. If it were right now October, things would be a lot clearer.

Remember the fiasco with the Tegra 2? If memory serves, a bunch of companies expected it to be available a whole lot sooner than it was. Made some people unhappy.

Personally I expect that they'll try for 28nm, because they'll be able to get better clock speeds out of it, but they'll be able to be flexible enough to settle for 40nm or 32nm and have a slower system if the process isn't available on time.

 

[Darryl]

ah Nintendo is not above funding a new studio for this dude if he was the most important factor for Mario Party's success. You would be better off starting a new topic on this, Mario Party and Cafe does not excite me at all. It is a cash in, it does not have to change that much. It would not shock me to see Ubisoft making Mario Party in the future though, mark my words

I didn't want to start a topic because I'm just speculating, and I don't really have a whole lot to speculate on. I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few that actually gets excited about a new (good) Mario Party, and would care enough about it to discuss. Was hoping if I posted here someone would have some more information on Hudson/Nintendo's relationship.

 

[Chet Rippo]

OK Fernando, here:

Some crappy developer is making a shitty Pokemon spinoff. Yaaaay!

And I will still buy it, yay!

 

[blu]

Well, they did with the 3DS.

Actually, I still See in the 3DS Nintendo fulfilling their needs and views above everyone else. I believe (Western at least) Developers would have probably preferred a more standard architecture like the original Tegra kit, even if the result weren't better. 3Ds is a very Nintendo-like design: opting for speed instead of quantity for RAM, going for fixed shaders to ease development (on their view, third parties would like prefer UE3, and similar, support), a feature that impacts the performance of the console, going for an older CPU since it was enough. (less need for L2 Cache with the fast RAM), etc..

As I posted in another thread.

I think their choice of PICA had much less to do with 'ease of development' than with the fact they needed to re-balance their power budget after the inclusion of the parallax-barrier display. Something had to give, and that something had to be the GPU. If their is something PICA200 shines above any other mobile GPU IP, that's power draw for the effects PICA provides. Actually, that was the single most important selling point DMP were attributing to their IP (IIRC, from reading some google-translated DMP materials).

 

[antonz]

I think their choice of PICA had much less to do with 'ease of development' than with the fact they needed to re-balance their power budget after the inclusion of the parallax-barrier display. Something had to give, and that something had to be the GPU. If their is something PICA200 shines above any other mobile GPU IP, that's power draw for the effects PICA provides. Actually, that was the single most important selling point DMP were attributing to their IP (IIRC, from reading some google-translated DMP materials).

From what I have gathered Nintendo ended up using PICA simply due to the fact Nvidia could not deliver the performance promised. Nintendo went pretty far along in development using Nvidia then all of a sudden they were gone.

Im guessing Nvidia failed to live upto the performance at power level

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I didn't want to start a topic because I'm just speculating, and I don't really have a whole lot to speculate on. I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few that actually gets excited about a new (good) Mario Party, and would care enough about it to discuss. Was hoping if I posted here someone would have some more information on Hudson/Nintendo's relationship.

I cannot even have any fun with Brawl because I have no gamer friends So these games only make me feel very much alone

 

[Grampa Simpson]

I cannot even have any fun with Brawl because I have no gamer friends So these games only make me feel very much alone

Wait! You have friends? I'm so jealous.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I hope the new Nintendo has amazing specs and comes in the most horrid color ever.

 

[Gravijah]

And I will still buy it, yay!

By the balls.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Wait! You have friends? I'm so jealous.

Lol @ your new name. What happened?