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[Mr_Brit]

They expect that they will be. I expect that they will be. You expect that they will be. That doesn't mean that they will be. If it were right now October, things would be a lot clearer.

Remember the fiasco with the Tegra 2? If memory serves, a bunch of companies expected it to be available a whole lot sooner than it was. Made some people unhappy.

Personally I expect that they'll try for 28nm, because they'll be able to get better clock speeds out of it, but they'll be able to be flexible enough to settle for 40nm or 32nm and have a slower system if the process isn't available on time.

If the system is coming out next year and they're showing games in progress at E3, shouldn't the minimum clock frequencies be locked in by now? I'm sure they could increase them depending on the manufacturing process but I can't see them decreasing them.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I hope the new Nintendo has amazing specs and comes in the most horrid color ever.

Poo colored?

 

[Darryl]

I cannot even have any fun with Brawl because I have no gamer friends So these games only make me feel very much alone

I've always been forced to play Brawl alone because most of my friends aren't gamers and it's not fair to ask them to play that with me. Mario Party is awesome, though. It's the only game that's so unfairly fair that even the best players can lose to someone who's never played it in their life. It's a great drinking game, too.

 

[antonz]

If the system is coming out next year and they're showing games in progress at E3, shouldn't the minimum clock frequencies be locked in by now? I'm sure they could increase them depending on the manufacturing process but I can't see them decreasing them.

Locked in doesnt really have to happen until just before production starts. Dev Kits almost always until closer to launch are under specced but similar to what is expected.

FOXCONN says October is when Wii 2 enters production. Nintendo does tend to be alot more willing to lock in though as mentioned the 3DS had a total redesign GPU wise towards the end of development of the system and even the ram ended up higher at the end of development

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Poo colored?

More like a brownish rustish yellowish hue.

So yeah, you could be right.

 

[blu]

From what I have gathered Nintendo ended up using PICA simply due to the fact Nvidia could not deliver the performance promised. Nintendo went pretty far along in development using Nvidia then all of a sudden they were gone.

Im guessing Nvidia failed to live upto the performance at power level

That was the general consensus from the grapevine at the time. And that Tegra 'show' Jen-Hsun pulled at CES'10 was quite in line with those rumors.

 

[brain_stew]

On the process front, a roadmap has appeared:

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...-2q-20112c-20nm-in-2012-and-14nm-in-2014.aspx

28nm in Q2 2011. I don't see why Cafe's GPU couldn't be 28nm if things go well for AMD's manufacturing partners.

You need to read that chart again.

One of the leading 28nm products isn't even going into production until early 2012 (if that timetable stands, and with TSMC, that's a crapshoot) yet Nintendo are planning on launching this console right around then. That means producing silicon in 2011 and that means 28nm isn't on the table.

It'll be either 32nm or 40nm, Nintendo never have and never will risk their console business on a new process node.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

For those that are really tech-savey, tell me something because I forget. The Xbox 360's Xenos GPU has 48 shader ALUs, right? And this number is not directly comparable to Radeon 4850/4870's 800 stream processors, as I understand.
So how many stream processors is Xenos equivalent to? Sorry if I worded that badly, but I'd really like to know.

 

[disap.ed]

You need to read that chart again.

One of the leading 28nm products isn't even going into production until early 2012 (if that timetable stands, and with TSMC, that's a crapshoot) yet Nintendo are planning on launching this console right around then. That means producing silicon in 2011 and that means 28nm isn't on the table.

It'll be either 32nm or 40nm, Nintendo never have and never will risk their console business on a new process node.

This roadmap just states when AMD plan to bring out an APU on a specific manufacturing process and not when that process will be ready. Wii 2 will almost definitely launch at 28nm.

As someone already mentioned the southern island GPUs will already see release in Q4/2011 and are built on 28nm (and most probably at a much higher transistor count), so I wouldn't write off 28nm for Cafe completely.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

As someone already mentioned the southern island GPUs will already see release in Q4/2011 and are built on 28nm (and most probably at a much higher transistor count), so I wouldn't write off 28nm for Cafe completely.

Exactly!

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Locked in doesnt really have to happen until just before production starts. Dev Kits almost always until closer to launch are under specced but similar to what is expected.

FOXCONN says October is when Wii 2 enters production. Nintendo does tend to be alot more willing to lock in though as mentioned the 3DS had a total redesign GPU wise towards the end of development of the system and even the ram ended up higher at the end of development

Is there any good information of when Nintendo informed 3rd parties of the GPU change? I think the leak of what GPU was being used happened between the first newspaper article stating that they were putting out a new system and E3 2010. How much headway did they have to give 3rd parties to have those demos adjusted for the new GPU at E3?

Also, a ram size change is relatively easy in comparison to other parts. Is the GPU in the 3DS working as memory controller for the system like Hollywood works in the Wii?

 

[blu]

For those that are really tech-savey, tell me something because I forget. The Xbox 360's Xenos GPU has 48 shader ALUs, right? And this number is not directly comparable to Radeon 4850/4870's 800 stream processors, as I understand.
So how many stream processors is Xenos equivalent to? Sorry if I worded that badly, but I'd really like to know.

240.

 

[Micerider]

From what I have gathered Nintendo ended up using PICA simply due to the fact Nvidia could not deliver the performance promised. Nintendo went pretty far along in development using Nvidia then all of a sudden they were gone.

Im guessing Nvidia failed to live upto the performance at power level

Yeah, if I remember well, it's mainly due to the fact that the TEGRA chip was really unstable on the temperature dissipation side : afordable in a desktop machine, un-aceptable for a portable console where you're whole form/architecture would have to get a precise termal dissipation capacity.

 

[Mr_Brit]

You need to read that chart again.

One of the leading 28nm products isn't even going into production until early 2012 (if that timetable stands, and with TSMC, that's a crapshoot) yet Nintendo are planning on launching this console right around then. That means producing silicon in 2011 and that means 28nm isn't on the table.

It'll be either 32nm or 40nm, Nintendo never have and never will risk their console business on a new process node.

Firstly that is GF and not TSMC.

Secondly, since when did APU's become leading products? They're about as low tech as you can get, leading products would be something like high end GPUs from AMD and nvidia.

That chart tells us nothing about the availability of 28nm and only when AMD plan to launch an APU using that manufacturing process.

 

[antonz]

Is there any good information of when Nintendo informed 3rd parties of the GPU change? I think the leak of what GPU was being used happened between the first newspaper article stating that they were putting out a new system and E3 2010. How much headway did they have to give 3rd parties to have those demos adjusted for the new GPU at E3?

Also, a ram size change is relatively easy in comparison to other parts. Is the GPU in the 3DS working as memory controller for the system like Hollywood works in the Wii?

It wasn't public knowledge until after E3 2010 that PICA was being used. June 21st 2010 is when DMP announced PICA 200 was selected for use in the 3DS.

How soon 3rd parties knew is another story. All we really know is patents etc were found before then using Tegra in the 3DS. Some 3rd parties did seem to indicate some of the stuff they showed at E3 was relatively new as far as being put together for display which could mean the switch from Tegra could have been rather recent.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

240.

Ah, thanks.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

does anyone else miss the simple days of 8bit 16bit 32bit 64bit 128bit?

what are we heading on now? we lost all the hype for bits all the sudden marketing stopped using it

man those were simple days, I really wish it would have continued

I remember someone asking me once if the Xbox 360 was 360bits lol

 

[E-phonk]

Well, this will be the first console of the 8th generation... Measuring in bits just doesn't make sense anymore...

 

[From The Dust]

does anyone else miss the simple days of 8bit 16bit 32bit 64bit 128bit?

what are we heading on now? we lost all the hype for bits all the sudden marketing stopped using it

man those were simple days, I really wish it would have continued

I remember someone asking me once if the Xbox 360 was 360bits lol

nanometer processes? I don't know. I do miss those days though. after the -bit Generations, I just refer to the generation number

 

[Coen]

The N64 was 32bit. So while convenient, it was misleading back in those days too.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

The N64 was 32bit. So while convenient, it was misleading back in those days too.

I thought that was called N64 for its 64-bit CPU?

 

[E-phonk]

I thought that was called N64 for its 64-bit CPU?

It was 64bit. Although by the "bit" part of a CPU wasn't as important anymore as before. It was also nothing new, 64bit cpu's existed since the 70's & 80's, just not for the consumer market.

 

[mt1200]

I dont mind if the console is not as powerful as we expect it to be if the hardware if reliable enough and the developers focus on aestethics or art style.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

It was 64bit. Although by the "bit" part of a CPU wasn't as important anymore as before. It was also nothing new, 64bit cpu's existed since the 70's & 80's, just not for the consumer market.

it was more than that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64

there was nothing 32bit about it

 

[stilgar]

I dont mind if the console is not as powerful as we expect it to be if the hardware if reliable enough and the developers focus on aestethics or art style.

Like the wii?

 

[E-phonk]

it was more than that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64

there was nothing 32bit about it

And the Gamecube/Wii are 32bit...

 

[Lonely1]

I think their choice of PICA had much less to do with 'ease of development' than with the fact they needed to re-balance their power budget after the inclusion of the parallax-barrier display. Something had to give, and that something had to be the GPU. If their is something PICA200 shines above any other mobile GPU IP, that's power draw for the effects PICA provides. Actually, that was the single most important selling point DMP were attributing to their IP (IIRC, from reading some google-translated DMP materials).

But turning off the parallax barrier doesn't improve battery that much. Not comparable to the battery life improvements you get while playing plain DS games.

The 3D effect seem to be cutting graphics performance by half or even more... I don't believe they cut on graphics performance. According to Iwata Asks, they had locked the hardware until the late introduction of 3D, for which they had to "double the specs". Whatever that means, we know at least about the RAM.

 

[SneakyStephan]

does anyone else miss the simple days of 8bit 16bit 32bit 64bit 128bit?

what are we heading on now? we lost all the hype for bits all the sudden marketing stopped using it

man those were simple days, I really wish it would have continued

I remember someone asking me once if the Xbox 360 was 360bits lol

So much lies back then, N64 wasn't even true 64 bit.

I much preferred it over HD though, if cafe has HD in it's name I'm going to burn something down.

double the specs. Whatever that means.

This was probably before they decided on glassless.

 

[Criminal Upper]

I hope Cafe is backwards compatible with ever N64 game ever game.

I miss the N64.

 

[donny2112]

And the Gamecube/Wii are 32bit...

I believe they are still 64-bit. PS2 (and PS3?) have been the only 128-bit consoles, I think.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Yes, the below video is fake (part of a class assignment to make a video that gets atleast 5000 hits)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgjES1oOTlc

But I have to say, the mockup controller they have a few seconds into the video looks perfect. I'm hoping the real thing ends up being very similar.

 

[E-phonk]

I believe they are still 64-bit. PS2 (and PS3?) have been the only 128-bit consoles, I think.

Gamecube: 32 bit with 64bit coprocessor (fpu)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gekko_(microprocessor)

Same with Wii
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadway_(microprocessor)

 

[Mr_Brit]

But turning off the parallax barrier doesn't improve battery that much. Not comparable to the battery life improvements you get while playing plain DS games.

The 3D effect seem to be cutting graphics performance by half or even more... I don't believe they cut on graphics performance. According to Iwata Asks, they had locked the hardware until the late introduction of 3D, for which they had to "double the specs". Whatever that means, we know at least about the RAM.

The 3D screen is undoubtedly the biggest single power consumer in the 3DS, just because the battery life improvement is small when parralax is turned off doesn't mean that the 3D screen doesn't consume a lot of energy.

I'd say it's probably less than half as Nintendo optimised the machine for 3D and since all games are 3D, devs can also optimise the game for 3D.

Do we know when 3D was added to the 3DS? I can't imagine it was less than 2 years ago as it significantly changes the scope of their project. Making the machine 3D probably cost them more than half of their battery life and since they'd budgeted money and volume to the battery already it wasn't something they could easily increase.

 

[Father_Brain]

The 3D screen is undoubtedly the biggest single power consumer in the 3DS, just because the battery life improvement is small when parralax is turned off doesn't mean that the 3D screen doesn't consume a lot of energy.

Uh... what? Then why would battery life be significantly better when playing DS software? Why would turning off 3D only increase battery life for 3DS software by 25%?

 

[Graphics Horse]

But I have to say, the mockup controller they have a few seconds into the video looks perfect. I'm hoping the real thing ends up being very similar.

No, it really doesn't. It's two GCN controllers wide by two GCN controllers tall. It looks fine on paper until you realise the size of the thing compared to the 6" screen.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Uh... what? Then why would battery life be significantly better when playing DS software? Why would turning off 3D only increase battery life for 3DS software by 25%?

Note I said the biggest single consumer, I can't imagine any other component in the 3DS at max power draw getting near the 3D screen at max power draw.

 

[Lonely1]

The 3D screen is undoubtedly the biggest single power consumer in the 3DS, just because the battery life improvement is small when parralax is turned off doesn't mean that the 3D screen doesn't consume a lot of energy.

I agree that the screens consumes more power than a regular LCD screen. But the battery life almost doubles while playing DS games, so the silicon consumption isn't trivial either.

I'd say it's probably less than half as Nintendo optimised the machine for 3D and since all games are 3D, devs can also optimise the game for 3D.

Games like SSFIV, LotC and DoA3D get their framerates cut by half in 3D, and more in the case DoA3D. That's what I'm basing my statement on. In the future we could see better optimized games, but that's the state of the software right now. Maybe the inclusion of the slider tech prevent the use of the shortcuts common with other 3D tech?

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Any Yoshi's Island rumors?

Spoiler

This E3 is going to be awesome, but not that awesome.

 

[Mr_Brit]

I agree that the screens consumes more power than a regular LCD screen. But the battery life almost doubles while playing DS games, so the silicon consumption isn't trivial either.


Games like SSFIV, LotC and DoA3D get their framerates cut by half in 3D, and more in the case DoA3D. That's what I'm basing my statement on. In the future we could see better optimized games, but that's the state of the software right now. Maybe the inclusion of the sliders prevent the use shortcuts common with other 3D tech?

Oh, I meant if the framerate were uncapped, e.g. if Game A runs at 66FPS uncapped in 2D it might run at 40FPS in 3D instead of 33FPS as expected due to the optimisation Nintendo and devs have done but as the game is locked to 60FPS in 2D and 30FPS in 3D, the difference won't matter anyway but it'd still be interesting to see what the increased load due to 3D is on 3DS compared to 360/PS3/PC.

 

[beje]

That was the general consensus from the grapevine at the time. And that Tegra 'show' Jen-Hsun pulled at CES'10 was quite in line with those rumors.

It could also be the main reason why first-gen 3DS games fail in basic tech areas (slowdowns on RR3D, static backgrounds on SSFIV...) or are magically gone from launch window (as announced last E3) to somewhere late 2011. I guess most of them were pretty far in development when they had to switch from Tegra 2 to ARM + PICA200

 

[Lonely1]

Oh, I meant if the framerate were uncapped, e.g. if Game A runs at 66FPS uncapped in 2D it might run at 40FPS in 3D instead of 33FPS as expected due to the optimisation Nintendo and devs have done but as the game is locked to 60FPS in 2D and 30FPS in 3D, the difference won't matter anyway but it'd still be interesting to see what the increased load due to 3D is on 3DS compared to 360/PS3/PC.

Well, DoA3 seems to be locked at 60fps in 2D but untestable 30fps in 3D. But I could could be wrong here (have yet to see the game myself). Also, I would believe that developers would prioritize optimization of the game in 3D, it being the main feature of the system.

It could also be the main reason why first-gen 3DS games fail in basic tech areas (slowdowns on RR3D, static backgrounds on SSFIV...) or are magically gone from launch window (as announced last E3) to somewhere late 2011. I guess most of them were pretty far in development when they had to switch from Tegra 2 to ARM + PICA200

There's nothing suggesting that. In fact, the first media we got of SSFIV3D showed full 2D backgrounds.

 

[swerve]

Any Yoshi's Island rumors?

Spoiler

Yoshi's Island is more likely for 3DS than Cafe, no?

there was a curious reel of more than a dozen old-school games, including Mega Man 2, Castlevania, Urban Champion, Kid Icarus, Yoshi's Island, Smash Ping Pong, Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros., Tennis, The Legend of Zelda, Metroid and Mystery of Murasame Castle. The non-interactive reel running on the 3DS that showed these games in 3D demonstrated how Nintendo's next handheld system can give them a little more of a pop-up book feel.

http://kotaku.com/5566935/mega-man-2-yoshis-island-among-teased-3ds-sorta+remakes

 

[Graphics Horse]

There's nothing suggesting that. In fact, the first media we got of SSFIV3D showed full 2D backgrounds.

And work on RR3DS seemed to have barely started.

 

[swerve]

Well, DoA3 seems to be locked at 60fps in 2D but untestable 30fps in 3D. But I could could be wrong here (have yet to see the game myself). Also, I would believe that developers would prioritize optimization of the game in 3D, it being the main feature of the system.

Yeah, I suspect those of us who love 60fps will be disappointed by the majority of 3DS games in 3D. The surprising thing for me is that first party titles are also running at 30 in 3D. StarFox (which was 60 on the N64!) and Ocarina are both 30fps.

If racers and rail-shooters can't get to 60, there's not much hope for other (3D) genres. Mario Kart DS was 60... so hopefully they will try to make that happen on 3DS too, but I'm not hopeful. I guess the test case will be if NCL make an F-Zero game for 3DS. That is the game where they have always prioritised framerate.

 

[NotGameboy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Hiltz/NintendoE3Invitation.jpg

Nintendo XMB confirmed.

 

[Lonely1]

Yeah, I suspect those of us who love 60fps will be disappointed by the majority of 3DS games in 3D. The surprising thing for me is that first party titles are also running at 30 in 3D. StarFox (which was 60 on the N64!) and Ocarina are both 30fps.

If racers and rail-shooters can't get to 60, there's not much hope for other (3D) genres. Mario Kart DS was 60... so hopefully they will try to make that happen on 3DS too, but I'm not hopeful. I guess the test case will be if NCL make an F-Zero game for 3DS. That is the game where they have always prioritised framerate.

Well, Nintendo would be the last on downplaying their main feature by offering significantly better performance without it . And Starfox 64 was really 60fps?

 

[blu]

It could also be the main reason why first-gen 3DS games fail in basic tech areas (slowdowns on RR3D, static backgrounds on SSFIV...) or are magically gone from launch window (as announced last E3) to somewhere late 2011. I guess most of them were pretty far in development when they had to switch from Tegra 2 to ARM + PICA200

Aside from the fact launch games tend to have more technical issues than later titles, I don't believe scrapping a game because a GPU changed from having pixel-shaders to exposing a fixed set of common PS effects, is the normal practice, unless such a game was built on top of some middleware that had rigid GPU requirements (e.g. UE3). CPU-wise, if we are to believe some of the older rumors, the early CTR devkits were Tegra1-based (ARM11MP), which means their CPU characteristics would not have differed much from the (again, rumored) ARM11MP that found its way in the final product.

 

[swerve]

Well, Nintendo would be the last on downplaying their main feature by offering significantly better performance without it . And Starfox 64 was really 60fps?

Actually maybe not. I just remember it looking pretty silky smooth back in the day. *runs to check*

 

[Oblivion]

Starfox 64 was NOT 60 fps.

Maybe he's confusing it with Starfox Adventures and/or Assault?

 

[blu]

But turning off the parallax barrier doesn't improve battery that much. Not comparable to the battery life improvements you get while playing plain DS games.

I don't see anything surprising in that. DS games benefit from the cumulative effect of no parallax barrier plus the sparing GPU load (which, for all we know, could be delegated to a dedicated BC silicon). If the reported 25% increase in battery life when parallax is off is true (I'm yet to get my 3DS) then the parallax power draw is far from trivial.