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[CrAzYLeGzLU]

1 million? 1 BILLION TROOPS! exclusive to the Cafe!

Everyone will be sucked!

 

[burgerdog]

Everyone will be sucked!

It will no longer be regular hack and slash anymore. Extreeeeeeme >o<

 

[big_z]

Hmmm, I doubt it, really.
There's actually no reason to believe that the system will only be as powerful as the PS3/360, even in a worst case scenario.

Don't say I didn't warn you come e3.

 

[NotGameboy]

If you have high hopes on the graphical capabilities of this system it's best to temper them a fair bit.

Believe.

 

[AceBandage]

Don't say I didn't warn you come e3.

Well, let's look at this logically.

Worst case scenario: They use a 4550.
Best case: A 4850.

Both are better than the Xenos, and allow for more shaders and processes.
However, the 4850 (and 4770) are both more efficient and use less wattage plus are on smaller dies.
It's much more likely that they'll use one of the latter, slightly modified.
This would allow for about 4-6x the power of the 360, which is roughly a half generation leap.

I'd say that this is perfectly reasonable.

 

[DragonKnight]

Hmmm, I doubt it, really.
There's actually no reason to believe that the system will only be as powerful as the PS3/360, even in a worst case scenario.

You are quite the optimist

Edit: I completely understand your argument. I am really just trying to keep my own hopes in check

 

[bgassassin]

Maybe. They could be using one of the lower-end GPUs in the R7xx family. I think there's one with 320 shaders, only slightly more than Xbox 360, with Xenos being the equivalent of 240. I hope you're right though, I hope Cafe gets 640-800 shaders (RV740-RV770). I want a powerful Cafe, as does almost everyone else.

We'll see. IGN was pretty specific about the comparable class of card going into the console.

 

[rpmurphy]

Don't say I didn't warn you come e3.

What if you're wrong?!

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Don't say I didn't warn you come e3.

By 2012 standards even a half generational leap over the PS3 and 360 will be considered weak.

PS3 and 360 are closer to Wii than most pieces of modern hardware.

 

[DragonKnight]

By 2012 standards even a half generational leap over the PS3 and 360 will be considered weak.

PS3 and 360 are closer to Wii than most pieces of modern hardware.

Which ponders the question: how far will nintendo go to "future proof" the console? This is my big hang up

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I think it would be a major stupid move for Nintendo to just match current HD platforms in terms of power so I don't think it optimistic to hope for something a bit more significant

by all means though I will just boycott this new hardware if they are as stupid as some of you think they are

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Which ponders the question: how far will nintendo go to "future proof" the console? This is my big hang up

My estimation would be a platform that can use current gen engines with tons of bells and whistles but one that can only run lower rent versions of next-gen engines.

 

[NotGameboy]

Worst case scenario: They use a 4550.

According to who?

 

[AceBandage]

You are quite the optimist

Edit: I completely understand your argument. I am really just trying to keep my own hopes in check

It's all about how you define graphics these days, really.
We're never going to see the leap from SNES to N64 again until real holographic gaming takes off.
And even the leap from PS2 to PS3 won't happen.
We have had GPUs that can produce shaders and effects and render textures in high definition for years.
For consoles, the leaps are going to be smaller and smaller, with a bigger focus on these effects.

According to who?

Based on the rumor that they're using something from the R4xxx line, which seems most likely at this point.

 

[brochiller]

My estimation would be a platform that can use current gen engines with tons of bells and whistles but one that can only run lower rent versions of next-gen engines.

As long as they don't completely miss out on XB3/PS4 games because their system is too weak, I am completely fine with this.

 

[Chiggs]

I think it would be a major stupid move for Nintendo to just match current HD platforms in terms of power so I don't think it optimistic to hope for something a bit more significant

by all means though I will just boycott this new hardware if they are as stupid as some of you think they are

Lke 512MB? That's what will cause me to boycott the system.

 

[DragonKnight]

I think it would be a major stupid move for Nintendo to just match current HD platforms in terms of power so I don't think it optimistic to hope for something a bit more significant

by all means though I will just boycott this new hardware if they are as stupid as some of you think they are[/QUOTE]

If the hardware is on par or marginal more powerful than the current HD twins then I am inclined to agree with you. No buy until the last year of the system's life when I can get it in the cheap.

 

[bgassassin]

Which ponders the question: how far will nintendo go to "future proof" the console? This is my big hang up

I'm with you as this being the real main question when looking at what Nintendo does with the hardware.

 

[DragonKnight]

My estimation would be a platform that can use current gen engines with tons of bells and whistles but one that can only run lower rent versions of next-gen engines.

If we are talking about say RE4 on the GCN versus RE4 on the PS2 then I am completely fine with this

Edit: How does one double quote?

 

[beelzebozo]

a far more likely reality is that, outside of technical specs, as far as the kinds of games it produces (as far as looks are concerned) it will follow a form much like the 3ds: some will argue it's slightly better than X, some will argue it's slightly worse than X, but it will fall somewhere in a hazy middle that is not 100% ahead of or behind many things.

 

[rpmurphy]

By 2012 standards even a half generational leap over the PS3 and 360 will be considered weak.

PS3 and 360 are closer to Wii than most pieces of modern hardware.

By the way, by what metrics are people using to define what a full generational leap from this one?

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Maybe. They could be using one of the lower-end GPUs in the R7xx family. I think there's one with 320 shaders, only slightly more than Xbox 360, with Xenos being the equivalent of 240. I hope you're right though, I hope Cafe gets 640-800 shaders (RV740-RV770). I want a powerful Cafe, as does almost everyone else.

It's probably not fair to pin it down to exactly one variation, but bet more on the core config, and the clock speed. Looking at the page, I see:

80:8:4 575, 600
320:32:8 600, 650, 750
640:32:8 700, 750
640:32:16 575, 700, 750
800:40:16 625, 750, 850

Additionally, it looks like just about all of them can have a different clock for memory, and some variations can support GDDR5 - I'd guess that the memory interface is almost modular and can be easily swapped out for custom builds.

Once again, it's really interesting to spend time staring at this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...essing_units#Radeon_R700_.28HD_4xxx.29_series

 

[AceBandage]

If we are talking about say RE4 on the GCN versus RE4 on the PS2 then I am completely fine with this

That would be about right, though, the difference visually would probably be even less noticeable.

By the way, by what metrics are people using to define what a full generational leap from this one?

Completely depends on the person, though many think a 10x power increase is a full generation. Which, of course, is a fairly arbitrary measurement.

a far more likely reality is that, outside of technical specs, as far as the kinds of games it produces (as far as looks are concerned) it will follow a form much like the 3ds: some will argue it's slightly better than X, some will argue it's slightly worse than X, but it will fall somewhere in a hazy middle that is not 100% ahead of or behind many things.

The problem with the 3DS is that we haven't seen any of Nintendo's A teams on it yet, which is why people think it's only slightly better (or worse in the case of crazy people).
RE:R clearly proves that it's a pretty massive leap over the PSP, and that game isn't even out yet.

 

[beast786]

Would you guys have bought cafe, even if it was not HD? Just because of Classic Nintendo franchises

 

[DragonKnight]

a far more likely reality is that, outside of technical specs, as far as the kinds of games it produces (as far as looks are concerned) it will follow a form much like the 3ds: some will argue it's slightly better than X, some will argue it's slightly worse than X, but it will fall somewhere in a hazy middle that is not 100% ahead of or behind many things.

Completely unacceptable. The 3DS followed Nintendo's handheld power jump perfectly. Releasing a console in 2012 that is inferior to harware released in 2005 in any way is fucking bonkers.

 

[AceBandage]

Would you guys have bought cafe, even if it was not HD? Just because of Classic Nintendo franchises

At this point, no. I'm too spoiled by Dolphin.

 

[DragonKnight]

Would you guys have bought cafe, even if it was not HD? Just because of Classic Nintendo franchises

Hell no.

 

[beelzebozo]

Completely unacceptable. The 3DS followed Nintendo's handheld power jump perfectly. Releasing a console in 2012 that is inferior to harware released in 2005 in any way is fucking bonkers.

acceptable or unacceptable is besides the point--i just think it's far more likely a reality than something definitively better or worse.

 

[DragonKnight]

At this point, no. I'm too spoiled by Dolphin.

Have you played WW in HD?

 

[From The Dust]

Would you guys have bought cafe, even if it was not HD? Just because of Classic Nintendo franchises

eventually. but it wouldn't be my first console

 

[bgassassin]

By the way, by what metrics are people using to define what a full generational leap from this one?

Probably currently going by the Radeon 6xxx class as the full gen leap for now. Which would be subject to change once Sony and MS finally release a console.

 

[AceBandage]

Have you played WW in HD?

Yup, though I think NMH2 and Madworld look better. Two games made with beyond Wii specs in mind.

 

[DragonKnight]

acceptable or unacceptable is besides the point--i just think it's far more likely a reality than something definitively better or worse.

Right. And the reality that this may even be a possibility is scary. Even by nintendo standards. Like a doctor using med techniques from 10 years ago.

 

[Orayn]

Would you guys have bought cafe, even if it was not HD? Just because of Classic Nintendo franchises

I'd be open to the possibility, but it would take the single greatest software lineup of all time, and not just from Nintendo.

 

[DragonKnight]

I'd be open to the possibility, but it would take the single greatest software lineup of all time, and not just from Nintendo.

I don't know if this speaks about the quality of nintendo's first party effort or nintendo just having you firmly by the balls

 

[Grampa Simpson]

By the way, by what metrics are people using to define what a full generational leap from this one?

The consensus seems to think that it will be the average of whatever MS and Sony put out as their next generation, with the assumption that both systems will be in the ballpark of each other. The other assumption is that they'll leapfrog whatever Nintendo puts out. I don't know if either assumption is true.

 

[AceBandage]

The consensus seems to think that it will be the average of whatever MS and Sony put out as their next generation, with the assumption that both systems will be in the ballpark of each other. The other assumption is that they'll leapfrog whatever Nintendo puts out. I don't know if either assumption is true.

Given that they'll launch later than the Cafe, they should definitely be stronger.
However, I don't think by nearly as much as people think.
Especially given Sony's recent financial reports. As well as rumblings that MS doesn't want to take as heavy of a loss in the gaming market anymore.
Though, it's completely up to when they launch their systems, but I think Cafe will force their hand a bit.

 

[rpmurphy]

Probably currently going by the Radeon 6xxx class as the full gen leap for now. Which would be subject to change once Sony and MS finally release a console.

I mean though, like what kind of computational power those components have in comparison to the capabilities of the current generation hardware. Or do they not do those kinds of comparisons anymore?

 

[NotGameboy]

Have you played WW in HD?

Eyegasm!

 

[Poyunch]

:[

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Given that they'll launch later than the Cafe, they should definitely be stronger.
However, I don't think by nearly as much as people think.
Especially given Sony's recent financial reports. As well as rumblings that MS doesn't want to take as heavy of a loss in the gaming market anymore.
Though, it's completely up to when they launch their systems, but I think Cafe will force their hand a bit.

This is the interesting point. I think that the Cafe will be 3-4x the processing capability of the ps360 with 2-4x the ram, but I the the PS4/720 will be 2x the processing capability of the Cafe and 1-2x the ram. That's assuming common parts, the same TDP, a smaller process (28 or 22nm) and a reduced price for ram.

There are a few who think that that it will be barely more capable than the PS360, but I think that in some cases they're willing themselves to have lowered expectations, and in some cases they're hoping that Nintendo won't have a system that's head and shoulders above the competition for a couple of years.

On the same note I might also be deluding myself, but I think that my case holds up to logical scrutiny better than the others.

 

[bgassassin]

I mean though, like what kind of computational power those components have in comparison to the capabilities of the current generation hardware. Or do they not do those kinds of comparisons anymore?

Unfortunately I've been out of the tech loop too long to give you that kind of breakdown. But from what I have gathered in trying to "crash course" my way back to understanding, GPU clock speed and shaders are two key factors.

 

[Boney]

:[

Good choice on an avatar there kiddo

 

[beast786]

hmm.

I am actually surprise by the answer's here. Nintendo 1st party has always ruled its consoles. And the wii had no problem with competing with HD twins as per 1st party is concern.

I hope all this power is not just for 3rd party.

I am really looking forward to see what the 1st party is going to do with all this hardware power. I just cant see it as Mario HD etc etc. The art-style has always been good enough that HD did not even matter.

 

[rpmurphy]

Unfortunately I've been out of the tech loop too long to give you that kind of breakdown. But from what I have gathered in trying to "crash course" my way back to understanding, GPU clock speed and shaders are two key factors.

Ok thanks. I mean, I get the idea that people are going to see the next consoles that Sony and MS are going to put out as the benchmark for "next gen", but is it plausible that they don't go for a full generational leap either, like maybe only 90% or something?

 

[bgassassin]

This is the interesting point. I think that the Cafe will be 3-4x the processing capability of the ps360 with 2-4x the ram, but I the the PS4/720 will be 2x the processing capability of the Cafe and 1-2x the ram. That's assuming common parts, the same TDP, a smaller process (28 or 22nm) and a reduced price for ram.

There are a few who think that that it will be barely more capable than the PS360, but I think that in some cases they're willing themselves to have lowered expectations, and in some cases they're hoping that Nintendo won't have a system that's head and shoulders above the competition for a couple of years.

On the same note I might also be deluding myself, but I think that my case holds up to logical scrutiny better than the others.

I believe there is merit to the part I bolded. Some would like to see how people will react to Nintendo being "underpowered", but I would like to see how some react to Nintendo being the clear top dog for at least one year.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

I don't know if that's a fair assumption to make considering they've only gone the underpowered route one generation.

What do you call the 3DS in terms of power?

 

[AceBandage]

hmm.

I am actually surprise by the answer's here. Nintendo 1st party has always ruled its consoles. And the wii had no problem with competing with HD twins as per 1st party is concern.

I hope all this power is not just for 3rd party.

I am really looking forward to see what the 1st party is going to do with all this hardware power. I just cant see it as Mario HD etc etc. The art-style has always been good enough that HD did not even matter.

Nintendo has always designed their consoles around their own needs first and foremost, and basically said "Have fun figuring this out, third parties!" On the N64, they actually held back tech info from third parties so that they couldn't out do their first party games.
However, the market has changed drastically, since then.
They could, technically, survive on just first party games, but that is a slow uphill battle and can quickly be snuffed out, especially if they can't capture a quick mass market with a WiiSports/Brain Training again.
However, with the Cafe (and to a certain extent, the 3DS), they have had to go to third parties and say "Ok, tell us what you want and we'll see what we can do." This is especially evident by the fact that third parties have had kits since at least last summer.
They will need to make third parties happy if they want to continue to stay relevant.

What do you call the 3DS in terms of power?

The 3DS is a clear generational leap (actually, probably more so). It was the PSP that was more powerful than a handheld had any right to be at the time (and it did bite them in the ass for a good while).

 

[Nirolak]

Given that they'll launch later than the Cafe, they should definitely be stronger.
However, I don't think by nearly as much as people think.
Especially given Sony's recent financial reports. As well as rumblings that MS doesn't want to take as heavy of a loss in the gaming market anymore.
Though, it's completely up to when they launch their systems, but I think Cafe will force their hand a bit.

One notable thing about Sony's financial report though is that their gaming division is one of the only positives.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

What do you call the 3DS in terms of power?

A standard handheld generational leap?

Sony and the PSP are being the crazy ones.