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[Instro]

Interesting, didn't know any of that about IGN, so that's the reason they've been getting all this attention. I figured people would just stick with the site with the good track record. I also see what you're saying about differing potential interpretations of the same specs.

So based on the past, what's the more likely possibility: a source underestimating a system's power? ("just a notch") Or overestimating? ("significantly more powerful")

I seem to remember overestimates for the NGP, and no underestimates. Anyone remember if it was the same for 3DS?

Well all sites are reporting the same specs (r700 line gpu, etc), the only difference is their interpretation of what those specs mean. It could just be that one or both sites dont have some good techies around to get them good speculation on the power of the console.

Based on most of the speculation in these Cafe threads about what gpu they would be using and such, it seems like most people are leaning towards it being quite a bit more powerful rather than it just being slightly more powerful.

 

[bgassassin]

You can see how specs are interpretted right here on gaf.

There are a percentage of people who think 4 PS360s duct taped togeather is not a sufficient jump in power.

We are looking a console that has literally like 72x the power of the Wii

And the jump from Wii does not get enough credence when looking at some of the art direction Nintendo pulled off with it, although I won't let that justify their hardware selection for the console. And that second sentence will lead to some disappointed gamers when Sony and MS think about fiscal responsibility come their next launch and the jump is not leaps and bounds above Cafe. Those are the real meltdowns to look forward to.

When looking back at the very early reports, on the surface the specs do resemble that of the 360 so I can understand why some were saying slightly more powerful, but at the same time there were still a lot of gaps to that needed to be filled before making that statement. With IGN trying to fill in the those gaps a little better we begin to get an idea that it shouldn't be close to the 360 at all.

 

[big_z]

im not trolling. just trying to get the kids to not over hype things because they're hoping for something that isnt there.

Won't happen. Nintendo game.

i forgot about that. i wonder if nintendo forces stores to maintain pricing on their products.

at least 3rd party stuff will still drop a ton after the first week or two.

 

[TekkenMaster]

Anyone think IGN will have another big game scoop this year, like the week-early DKCR leak last year?

 

[Instro]

i forgot about that. i wonder if nintendo forces stores to maintain pricing on their products.

at least 3rd party stuff will still drop a ton after the first week or two.

Nah Nintendo cant do anything about store pricing, its generally because Nintendo games are always selling even a year after release so stores never need to get rid of extra stock. There are cases when a Nintendo game does drop in price quickly though, Other M for example.

 

[Cromat]

People here have said that at this point in time, the PS3 and 360 are closer to Wii than they are to modern hardware.
As someone who haven't had the chance to play on a high-end PC, is that really the case?
I mean I've seen screenshots of games like The Witcher 2, and while they are very pretty, they aren't "something you've never seen before"-level. Maybe I have to see it in motion?

If Cafe is really a "half-generation" leap over the current consoles, will it be very noticeable? Like going from PS1 to Dreamcast?
I know the whole graphics aspect has diminishing returns, the changes become more subtle as technology progresses. Will I be wowed by Cafe in the same way I was wowed when I first played PS2 and Xbox 360?

 

[Mr_Brit]

People here have said that at this point in time, the PS3 and 360 are closer to Wii than they are to modern hardware.
As someone who haven't had the chance to play on a high-end PC, is that really the case?
I mean I've seen screenshots of games like The Witcher 2, and while they are very pretty, they aren't "something you've never seen before"-level. Maybe I have to see it in motion?

If Cafe is really a "half-generation" leap over the current consoles, will it be very noticeable? Like going from PS1 to Dreamcast?
I know the whole graphics aspect has diminishing returns, the changes become more subtle as technology progresses. Will I be wowed by Cafe in the same way I was wowed when I first played PS2 and Xbox 360?

No. There are already PC games that look better than anything Wii 2 will ever put out.

 

[bgassassin]

im not trolling. just trying to get the kids to not over hype things because they're hoping for something that isnt there.

But what is that based on? Even if there isn't a lot of info out there, more of it says there is something there than isn't.

 

[Gravijah]

No. There are already PC games that look better than anything Wii 2 will ever put out.

Yeah, but that wouldn't affect him being wowed or not since he won't ever play 'em.

 

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

No. There are already PC games that look better than anything Wii 2 will ever put out.

So I can't think, "Wow, those are amazing graphics for a home console"?

 

[Mr_Brit]

Yeah, but that wouldn't affect him being wowed or not since he won't ever play 'em.

So I can't think, "Wow, those are amazing graphics for a home console"?

He meant in the sense that he was wowed when first playing 360 games or PS2 games which were a clear cut above what was previously out there and competed very favourably with the best PC games and a lot of the time even beat the best PC could put out at the time. This same situation won't happen with Wii 2 as PC hardware is already so far ahead.

 

[watershed]

Anyone think IGN will have another big game scoop this year, like the week-early DKCR leak last year?

Yes, I'm confident we'll get some leak about some game 1st or 3rd party. Its basically standard practice for the build up to E3.

 

[Cromat]

Yeah, but that wouldn't affect him being wowed or not since he won't ever play 'em.

Like I said I've never had the privilege of playing on a high-end PC.
Are current PC games truly a generation beyond current games on Xbox 360/PS3?
I find that hard to believe since 1) I've seen screenshots 2) It's mostly the same games on all three platforms.
But maybe i'm wrong. Are people who go from 360 to modern PC wowed by the graphics in the same way that they were wowed by going from PS2 to 360?

 

[EatChildren]

I agree with what nintendo need to do as per making sure that 3rd is happy. But to be honest. On a personal level I don't care about 3rd parties unless it will be exclusive to cafei. MY PC is pretty powerful so I will always play the Multiplat on it. I am just really curious how nintendo will use all that hardware power. Like you said, if they dont they will be out class on there own console by 3rd parties. Hence, they must have couple of trick saved. I think that is the biggest question mark for me. What will nintendo do with all this hardware power. It will cost them more money and time for each game.

Pretty much how I feel. It's funny seeing people so desperate for third party support, especially from folk who dont own a Wii and dont really like Nintendo systems to begin with. As if 'third party support' will shift them from their already owned platforms, when all three will be getting the same goddamn games.

I only care about third party support that is exclusive and unique. I dont care about Skyrim, Battlefield, Deus Ex, Mass Effect and all those other multiplatform blockbusters, because I will be getting them on PC like I always planned.

Nintendo catering to the masses by making a fourth port platform would be a deadful idea in my opinion. I've said it before, but if that's their method of roping the fabled 'hardcore' back in, it will blow up right in their face.

Exclusives or bust.

 

[Instro]

Anyone think IGN will have another big game scoop this year, like the week-early DKCR leak last year?

Its kind of funny because a poster on the Gametrailers Wii board leaked NSMBWii, Galaxy 2, Other M months before they were announced and DKCR over a year before it was announced. Obviously no one believed him at the time particularly because he claimed Metroid would be focusing on story, but I still find it pretty crazy to this day because Ive never seen a leak like that before that turned out to be real.

Never did find out where he got the info, supposedly the same stuff had been posted on the IGN Insider boards around the same time though.

 

[TekkenMaster]

I mean I've seen screenshots of games like The Witcher 2, and while they are very pretty, they aren't "something you've never seen before"-level. Maybe I have to see it in motion?

Count me as someone who isn't very impressed by these kinds of PC screenshots. They basically look like higher res high level PS360 graphics to me.

Kind of like how the first 360 games looked like high res Xbox games...but just look at how much 360 games have progressed since 2005/2006. I believe at the very least PS4/720 will have graphics that significantly exceed modern PC titles on highest settings.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Like I said I've never had the privilege of playing on a high-end PC.
Are current PC games truly a generation beyond current games on Xbox 360/PS3?
I find that hard to believe since 1) I've seen screenshots 2) It's mostly the same games on all three platforms.
But maybe i'm wrong. Are people who go from 360 to modern PC wowed by the graphics in the same way that they were wowed by going from PS2 to 360?

The problem isn't the power, but how high a level we are already at, and just how much higher we'd have to go to see the same PS2 to 360 level jump. To see that kind of jump (the Samaritan vid) you literally have to rig five modern cards together.

We are getting to the point of diminishing returns with our hardware until we make that next significant jump. We ain't there yet.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Pretty much how I feel. It's funny seeing people so desperate for third party support, especially from folk who dont own a Wii and dont really like Nintendo systems to begin with. As if 'third party support' will shift them from their already owned platforms, when all three will be getting the same goddamn games.

I only care about third party support that is exclusive and unique. I dont care about Skyrim, Battlefield, Deus Ex, Mass Effect and all those other multiplatform blockbusters, because I will be getting them on PC like I always planned.

Nintendo catering to the masses by making a fourth port platform would be a deadful idea in my opinion. I've said it before, but if that's their method of roping the fabled 'hardcore' back in, it will blow up right in their face.

Exclusives or bust.

How could you possibly be opposed to third party support and ports? Not everyone owns every single platform and those who don't will now get a chance to experience good games that aren't solely from Nintendo.

 

[Gravijah]

Who cares about graphics anyway? I want some physics lovin'.

 

[bgassassin]

^ You sound like me Gravijah. However I was informed that's not a simple task.

He meant in the sense that he was wowed when first playing 360 games or PS2 games which were a clear cut above what was previously out there and competed very favourably with the best PC games and a lot of the time even beat the best PC could put out at the time. This same situation won't happen with Wii 2 as PC hardware is already so far ahead.

I think that will be developer specific. Third party devs will be a no, but Nintendo first party titles should be a yes.

I'm expecting a couple of "DAT DENIM!" responses to Mario in a new SSB game.

 

[Mr_Brit]

The problem isn't the power, but how high a level we are already at, and just how much higher we'd have to go to see the same PS2 to 360 level jump. To see that kind of jump (the Samaritan vid) you literally have to rig five modern cards together.

We are getting to the point of diminishing returns with our hardware until we make that next significant jump. We ain't there yet.

Just pulling numbers out of the air now, aren't you? Epic ran Samaritan at an unknown resolution and unoptimised running on a tri SLI GTX 580 system which are known to offer anything but ideal scaling. Epic said that with optimisation they could get it running on a single GTX 580, there's no reason to think something like a GTX 560Ti couldn't run the demo at 1080p/30FPS.

^ You sound like me Gravijah. However I was informed that's not a simple task.



I think the will be developer specific. Third party devs will be a no, but Nintendo first party titles should be a yet.

I'm expecting a couple of "DAT DENIM!" responses to Mario in a new SSB game.

Everyone will be impressed by Wii 2 graphics it's just that the hype will not be as strong as when 360/PS3 came out as PC graphics will be noticeably better than Wii 2 unlike when 360/PS2 came out.

 

[Antagon]

LOL. I was about to post X-Stream. Nice return jab to MS after their 360/Revolution naming.

'Don't cross the stream!'

 

[antonz]

Just pulling numbers out of the air now, aren't you? Epic ran Samaritan at an unknown resolution and unoptimised running on a tri SLI GTX 580 system which are known to offer anything but ideal scaling. Epic said that with optimisation they could get it running on a single GTX 580, there's no reason to think something like a GTX 560Ti couldn't run the demo at 1080p/30FPS.

Nvidia themselves has stated that Running Samaritan on a single GPU as shown will not happen on this generation of graphics cards and wont be even possible til the next generation at the earliest. Nvidia also went on record as stating they had a ton of technical issues graphically even with 3 580s.

Epic had Nvidia engineers working with them directly on the project to even make the demo possible.

 

[bgassassin]

I believe at the very least PS4/720 will have graphics that significantly exceed modern PC titles on highest settings.

I don't. I expect them to slightly exceed current PCs at best while being on par to slightly lower as the most likely outcome.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Just pulling numbers out of the air now, aren't you? Epic ran Samaritan at an unknown resolution and unoptimised running on a tri SLI GTX 580 system which are known to offer anything but ideal scaling. Epic said that with optimisation they could get it running on a single GTX 580, there's no reason to think something like a GTX 560Ti couldn't run the demo at 1080p/30FPS.

I didn't pull any numbers out of the air.

Out of my ass yes.

My point was to get that true next-gen feel you're going to need hardware that I doubt any of the three console manufacturers have seriously considered at all.

 

[big_z]

Who cares about graphics anyway? I want some physics lovin'.

it would be awesome to see a secondary chip dedicated only to physics in a next gen console. im getting tired of playing games were everything is made from titanium and bolted down.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Nvidia themselves has stated that Running Samaritan on a single GPU as shown will not happen on this generation of graphics cards and wont be even possible til the next generation at the earliest.

There's your problem. We have no idea about what resolution, framerate or settings it was run at as well as the fact that it was run on a tri SLI system which offers bad scaling as well as the fact that console hardware due to optimisation can offer twice the power of equivalent hardware and the fact that Epic themselves said they could get it to run on one GTX 580. Turn down the settings which are over the top like tesselation and lower it to 1080p/30FPS and it's easily something like a GTX560 in a console could run. Next gen consoles will also most likely have much more VRAM than a GTX 580 so can offer significantly better textures than were in the Samaritan demo.

 

[TekkenMaster]

I don't. I expect them to slightly exceed current PCs at best while being on par to slightly lower as the most likely outcome.

Out of curiousity...

How do the graphics of Uncharted 2 / God of War 3 compare to late 2006 PC games run on highest settings?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Out of curiousity...

How do the graphics of Uncharted 2 / God of War 3 / compare to late 2006 PC games run on highest settings?

Better.

But that's mainly because console teams tend to have much better art designers than your average PC developer. Harsh, but true.

Name a game made on the GTX that looks anywhere close to Galaxy?

GTX? Was that the era of DX 2.0 shaders?

GAH.

Well... whatever the Wii level card of the era was.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Better.

But that's mainly because console teams tend to have much better art designers than your average PC developer. Harsh, but true.

Name a game made on the GTX that looks anywhere close to Galaxy?

Edit: Never mind you stealth edited.

 

[Gravijah]

it would be awesome to see a secondary chip dedicated only to physics in a next gen console. im getting tired of playing games were everything is made from titanium and bolted down.

need more red factionsssssssszzzzzzzz

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Edit: Never mind you stealth edited.

Hah!

Yeah.

My brain farted.

 

[bgassassin]

http://api.ning.com/files/M7-ZTbQuBuwFhACmUECSHZoneDmu60HeIZlosE99bjw_/Ghostbusters1.jpg

'Don't cross the stream!'

LOL. At least Cafe can handle the definitive version of that now.

Everyone will be impressed by Wii 2 graphics it's just that the hype will not be as strong as when 360/PS3 came out as PC graphics will be noticeably better than Wii 2 unlike when 360/PS2 came out.

I understand what you are saying, but maybe I'm not being totally clear. Nintendo titles (specifically) will go through that same type of jump. We haven't seen what those games will look like at that this current level. And with the console being more powerful than the current gen, the jump will be bigger than going from Xbox to Xbox 360.

 

[blu]

Silicon Graphics Inc. designed the Nintendo 64's RCP or Reality CoProcessor (the GPU) and MIPS designed the CPU. I cannot remember if SGI owned MIPS at the time.

IIRC, N64 was more or less a largely scaled-down design of one of SGI's mainstream architectures at the time, alas my memory fails me on the details right now. The issue with that was that the original design relied on some high-end silicon, which, when downscaled to console level (read: meeting the console budgets), shifted balances and created entirely new bottlenecks. The end result was an architecture with way too many bottlenecks and gotchas. A Quasimodo of an SGI.

 

[Mr_Brit]

LOL. At least Cafe can handle the definitive version of that now.



I understand what you are saying, but maybe I'm not being totally clear. Nintendo titles (specifically) will go through that same type of jump. We haven't seen what those games will look like at that this current level. And with the console being more powerful than the current gen, the jump will be bigger than going from Xbox to Xbox 360.

Nintendo titles will look massively better and will impress everyone(that is assuming Nintendo have less trouble with Wii 2 than they are having with 3DS), it's just that the rest of the games won't have the same impact whereas PS2 and 360 games did.

 

[Chiggs]

I think Nintendo needs a strong negative reaction if they pull that shit. They seem to respond well to E3 reactions

but whats to say they even give us specs

Well, they won't.

 

[bgassassin]

Out of curiousity...

How do the graphics of Uncharted 2 / God of War 3 compare to late 2006 PC games run on highest settings?

What TM said, but I was making that assumption based strictly on Sony and MS being more fiscally responsible for their next releases. I don't see them willing to go through the financial beating of using the latest tech in their consoles again. That will prevent them from having a huge leap over over the current gen PC games. I can see them playing the current ones much smoother and some enhancements here and there, but nothing that will resemble the jump we saw with this current gen IMO.

 

[JohnTinker]

Had a game might tonight with a lot of old friends and theres just something about huddling around a screen playing the original Smash Bros.

One thing about the Cafe's controllers, I hope they are durable and last for a long time. It was hard for us to scrounge up 4 good solid working N64 controllers. Most controllers got annihilated by Mario Party, with the buttons getting stuck or the sticks being loose.

We wound up moving onto Melee, then to Brawl. Nobody could find their Wavebird receivers, and we were stuck using corded pads. Made me thankful that systems no longer require receivers for the wireless controllers. Also realized just how ridiculously ergonomic the Cube controllers were, whereas I could feel my hands begin to cramp up after playing the 64.

I still feel like the Cube controller is more comfortable than the CC, and even the CC Pro. The button layout on the GC controller may not have been third party port friendly but man did it feel good to play with.

I know they take ergonomics seriously, but I hope they take a lot of cues from the Gamecube controller.

 

[bgassassin]

it's just that the rest of the games won't have the same impact whereas PS2 and 360 games did.

LOL. I know. That's what I was saying.

 

[_Alkaline_]

Mario in HD is going to look so fucking ace. Galaxy is so damn beautiful as it is, just imagine what it will look like without jaggies and vaseline.

Hopefully they having a Mario game to show at E3 for Cafe, but to be honest I'd be surprised if that was the case, with the Galaxy team developing SM3DS and all.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

IIRC, N64 was more or less a largely scaled-down design of one of SGI's mainstream architectures at the time, alas my memory fails me on the details right now. .

Onyx2 Reality Engine, I believe.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Who cares about graphics anyway? I want some physics lovin'.

Go play World of Goo...


again.

 

[EatChildren]

How could you possibly be opposed to third party support and ports? Not everyone owns every single platform and those who don't will now get a chance to experience good games that aren't solely from Nintendo.

I'm not opposed to ports or support. I have no personal investment in third party ports. I know why Nintendo-only owners would want it, but it doesn't matter to me. A 'me too' system is completely unteresting from where I sit.

For all the terrible support it got one of the things I liked about the Wii was that many of the quality third party games were exclusive to the platform, and occasionaly made good use of the pointer or motion controls. I liked that even if it were flawed, the game I was playing had the potential to be unique in the face of everything else, and something you couldn't get anywhere else.

I do nearly all of my high end gaming on PC, because it is and always will be my platform of choice. It took me until very late last year to finally pick up a PS3, because 90% of the games I like that were on the PS3 were also on PC, and so the value of the system was very little. I was tired of missing out on Vanquish, Bayonetta, Uncharted, Nier, Demon's Souls, and a few other games I wanted but couldn't play because I didn't own the platform.

Nintendo catering to the mass gamer market by release a fourth port machine is all well and good for people who would buy ports, but it means absolutely nothing to me. I'm more interested in playing games I cannot get anywhere else. If having similar level hardware encourages more of these games to show up then sure, great, I'm all for it. But I dont believe it will, at least not without Nintendo money hatting for exclusives. In today's financial market there is no reason for a developer to invest in an exclusive for Nintendo's next platform if they could easily release it on two or three platforms as well.

I have similar thoughts about the controller. Touch screen in the middle? Strange, but cool. I'm down with that. Traditional dual analogue? Fuck off. I'm done with dual analogue unless I absolute have to stick with. To hell with the motion control haters. I want my pointer. I want motion controls. I want gimmicks that seperate the system from everything else. Wii controller support is bound to happen, but if its optional developers will, by large, not give a flying fuck about it.

Support = good. Support that equates to multiple platform games = good only if you prefer to game on that system. I dont. As said, I already game on PC, and now I own a PS3. I'd prefer Nintendo to do something utterly absurd, if just for the possibility of more titles that I wont be able to get anywhere else.

 

[Morokh]

Count me as someone who isn't very impressed by these kinds of PC screenshots. They basically look like higher res high level PS360 graphics to me.

which would define themselves as better than what you can get on 360 xD
your point is quite weird

You may get those graphics on Café, or on Next gen devices, but by then High-end PC's will have moved forward too.

But there is one thing that Consoles have over PC, even if their specs are set in stone for their lifespan, it is the fact that devs know exactly what kind of hardware they deal with, so they can optimize their assets over time to get better results.
This is much harder to do with PC because you have to aim for a 'range' of hardware possibilities, but games tend to age better, because you always end-up upgrading.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Mario in HD is going to look so fucking ace. Galaxy is so damn beautiful as it is, just imagine what it will look like without jaggies and vaseline.

Hopefully they having a Mario game to show at E3 for Cafe, but to be honest I'd be surprised if that was the case, with the Galaxy team developing SM3DS and all.

It might steal some of the 3DS game's thunder but you could say that in general about unveiling the new console.

 

[Krowley]

Count me as someone who isn't very impressed by these kinds of PC screenshots. They basically look like higher res high level PS360 graphics to me.

Kind of like how the first 360 games looked like high res Xbox games...but just look at how much 360 games have progressed since 2005/2006. I believe at the very least PS4/720 will have graphics that significantly exceed modern PC titles on highest settings.

Same here. The latest pc games look better than 360/ps3 games, but it isn't gonna blow anybody's mind anymore. It's honestly about the same as the difference between ps2 and xbox1, which isn't significant enough to matter in a big way.

That's why I think all the manufacturers will be using controllers and other innovations to differentiate their products next gen. Nintendo got a little ahead of the curve with the wii, but it will be the rule from now own. Everybody will be trying to advance the functionality of what their console can do in ways that go beyond just graphics.

And one more thing about the graphics issue... There is a possibility that PC graphics on the best current hardware aren't really pushing the envelope as much as they could because of the need for scalability between different levels of computer hardware. Anything made strictly for the cafe will not have to worry about that at all, and they might be able to push things a little bit more than people expect.

 

[Gravijah]

Same here. The latest pc games look better than 360/ps3 games, but it isn't gonna blow anybody's mind anymore. It's honestly about the same as the difference between ps2 and xbox1, which isn't significant enough to matter in a big way.

Come on, double the framerate and resolution isn't that minor.

Plus all of the other bells and whistles.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I thought Project Offset was more impessive than the Samaritan demo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkoi6WCCJHY

It's clearly a generation beyond Skyrim and I doubt that Cafe will ever be able to produce these kind of graphics, but it's fun to dream.

 

[Instro]

Same here. The latest pc games look better than 360/ps3 games, but it isn't gonna blow anybody's mind anymore. It's honestly about the same as the difference between ps2 and xbox1, which isn't significant enough to matter in a big way.

This is so untrue its not even funny.

 

[EatChildren]

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I thought Project Offset was more impessive than the Samaritan demo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkoi6WCCJHY

It's clearly a generation beyond Skyrim and I doubt that Cafe will ever be able to produce these kind of graphics, but it's fun to dream.

There's absolutely nothing impressive about Skyrim beyond what one would expect from a game built for this generation's consoles. The art is a huge improvement, and it's technically superior to the last Elder Scrolls title, but it's next to nothing beyond Oblivion's scope and other games of it's kind. People are hyped for it, and it will look nice on PC, but it's nowhere close to being a graphical benchmark.

So yeah, it's not surprising stuff like Offset looks a generation ahead. These are games built for PC and built to push the crazy good hardware we've got to the limits, so you get an abundence of awesome shaders, textures, physic and geometry calculations.

Wii 2 wont push close to that, but I'm one of the bitterly cynical lot who dont expect the Wii 2 to be much more than an Xbox 360.