How did he do that? Is buying and playing a game before the street date forbidden by the TOS?
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Just got my console (and I assume my account) banned from Live for playing Halo 4.
- Thread starter Skel1ingt0n
- Start date
How did he do that? Is buying and playing a game before the street date forbidden by the TOS?
Apparently anything and everything can be in violation of the TOS, and some people here kinda got caught up in that.
US law kinda sucks when it allows these kinda TOSes to exist. In my country they are deemed illegal and will not hold up in any circumstance. That doesnt mean that you as a consumer cant be fcked by the larger companies tho.
The game wasn't "given" to him (since he apparently paid for it). I assume they wrote his credit card info down in order to run the card later, or just didn't process the info.
And doesn't the crime of theft consider intent as well? There was no malice involved in the OP's situation, while the people in your example clearly intended to rip-off the store.
It wasn't really all that much energy. The dude made a post, and Frankie responded within a few hours of it going up saying that it would be taken care of.
I haven't read this thread since the day it went up like a month and a half ago, but I remember it was taken care of rather promptly.
The OP is playing right now with the same copy, just on a new console, and MS don't seem to think that is illegitimate anymore.
Yes, banning is stupid. They should ask for receipt and then ban if he couldn't provide it.
But in this case OP still would be banned.
They ban and then investigate. Like Steam. Its not really banned, its suspended. After x amount the time they will delete it.
blitzcloud
Banned
After all the ups and downs on this thread, I propose the following argument:
1. The copies are not to be sold before street date.
The copy was not sold in fact as there's no actual money exchange for a product. That depends on how the street date agreement is written thought. The clerk (assuming it was a clerk) may have some authority to give out a game on promise of a future payment for good clients.
2. Skellington had a proper copy of the game as of 10/26, from what we could see.
That's a legitimate copy as it's not stolen goods from distribution centers (i assume) neither 343/microsoft's business since they already sold them to the store. They still have legal rights concerning point 1, but can't call the copy illegitimate because they feel like creating a new hop on the legitimacy of a product.
3. He's not giving away shop details
Skelington won't make someone who he may consider a friend / in debt lose his job and face even more legal problems for something he persistently asked. That's honorable of him.
Still, I don't think that Microsoft attitude of gunning down pre-release players is bad, as it is one of the few ways to get them. But then they should look at the "error margin" players and fix the issue. Not to mention that considering they market H4 as best thing since sliced bread, it's normal a "peasant" wants to play it no matter what, and then they banhammer the hell out of him for buying into their marketing a bit too much, when they have the option of making the online mode whitelist-only.
They would probably lose in court, as they are probably acting in bad faith (dunno about the laws over there though). Bad faith as in, they have the possibility of having (and actually DO have) a whitelist for people playing pre-release (otherwise press people would get banned), but they don't issue a block on everyone else. They instead willingly lure the mice to the trap, to ban pirates mostly. Still, some consumers get an unwarranted ban and no solution as it seems. I think that purposely letting consumers into a trap so they lose up to thousands of dollars of contents is acting in bad faith.
1. The copies are not to be sold before street date.
The copy was not sold in fact as there's no actual money exchange for a product. That depends on how the street date agreement is written thought. The clerk (assuming it was a clerk) may have some authority to give out a game on promise of a future payment for good clients.
2. Skellington had a proper copy of the game as of 10/26, from what we could see.
That's a legitimate copy as it's not stolen goods from distribution centers (i assume) neither 343/microsoft's business since they already sold them to the store. They still have legal rights concerning point 1, but can't call the copy illegitimate because they feel like creating a new hop on the legitimacy of a product.
3. He's not giving away shop details
Skelington won't make someone who he may consider a friend / in debt lose his job and face even more legal problems for something he persistently asked. That's honorable of him.
Still, I don't think that Microsoft attitude of gunning down pre-release players is bad, as it is one of the few ways to get them. But then they should look at the "error margin" players and fix the issue. Not to mention that considering they market H4 as best thing since sliced bread, it's normal a "peasant" wants to play it no matter what, and then they banhammer the hell out of him for buying into their marketing a bit too much, when they have the option of making the online mode whitelist-only.
They would probably lose in court, as they are probably acting in bad faith (dunno about the laws over there though). Bad faith as in, they have the possibility of having (and actually DO have) a whitelist for people playing pre-release (otherwise press people would get banned), but they don't issue a block on everyone else. They instead willingly lure the mice to the trap, to ban pirates mostly. Still, some consumers get an unwarranted ban and no solution as it seems. I think that purposely letting consumers into a trap so they lose up to thousands of dollars of contents is acting in bad faith.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Do you know how money works? Do you know how post-dated checks or credit charges work. If the establishment has agreed to it/suggested it and they did in fact charge him two days later or whenever it was released its not stealing. What are you even talking about?
I doubt the clerk memorized his cc info and entered it in two days later....They have processes for this scenario.
RedNumberFive
Banned
No joke. More than anything, I'm surprised that this still hasn't been resolved. Of course with Microsoft setting the standard for the worst customer support, it shouldn't be too surprising.
From what we know from this thread, the cashier is a friend of the OP.
Uno Venova
Banned
Where did he say that.
Vorg
Banned
Are you making stuff up as you go along? Where did he say that?
Backfoggen
Banned
Seems like Major Nelson isn't going to tweet "And of course you can play your retail version of X before release date!" anymore lmao
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
I've only had the luxury to play two games on Xbox before release: gears 2 and halo 3. Both from 7/11 IIRC.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
First off - thank you for taking the time to update me. I appreciate it. You're the first person that has actually come back to me with an actual "reason" for my banning. I have yet to receive ANY PMs from anybody since my last update a couple weeks(?) ago.
With that said - and I'm not directing at you, the messenger, but that's a 100% positively bullshit claim by MS, if they're implying "illegitimate" means anything more than "pre-release." The copy I got early and took pictures of on here (and got me banned) is a 100%, authentic, straight-from MS to retail to consumer copy, like any other copy. In no way, shape, or form was it from an illegal download, and ISO, and/or required a modified console or account. I actually take more frustration away from the wording than almost anything else, and that's because, if this is true, every consumer needs to realize...
... MS can, and will deem your copy "illegitimate" for any reason they decide; which in this case, happened to be because I was playing it early.
I could take that same exact copy now, and play it on anyone else's Xbox and there's no way MS would still consider it "illegitimate."
I've traveled three out of the last four weeks for work - I haven't had the time to take further action or even get super pissed about this - I am, it's frustrating as hell; but I said since the beginning I really only cared about my name (which I didn't get), which happens to also mean I'm like the easiest customer to make right with, ever.
Because, remember that the inability to play all your other games on Live, such a console ban blocks you from full (online) access to Arcade titles, patches for buggy releases both past and present, wastes all remaining XBL Gold Time and MS Points, makes all your Avatar Clothes pointless, and makes all your on-line passes wasted.
Take either side you want on the issue - that's fair. Believe it or not, when telling my friends and family about this story and this thread, I always say I can respect the opinions of those that think this is all my fault or that by protecting the store I'm forfeiting my right to recourse. Fair enough. I disagree, but it's an okay stance to take. With all that said, I would like to line out the following, just one last time. 1) The copy is a legit copy, 2) The store got their money, I'm certain 3) The store considered it a sale on launch and MS got their money. It did not "fall off the back of a truck" was it swiped while unpacking or something or come from a shady guy on CL. And, if it's not clear, I did not have a modified console to play it. Like I said, my Word is more important than an Xbox, and so I'm not going to tell on the employee. I do just have to ask, though - if my copy is "illegitimate" - like MS says - what would a receipt have done to make it any less illegitimate? Early is early, right?
I do wish I would have received more communication. I still, like I said earlier in this post, have not received any further communication about my ban. This is my first time getting a "reason" for why I'm banned. If that's the case, fine, so be it. But I should have been updated or this thread should have been updated, so I (and everyone else) could know the reason. I'm irritated that this was quickly cast off as an easy fix prior to launch, which certainly did a fair bit of damage control if you look at the first several pages of this topic. But then once copies were released and the game available, it was no longer solvable. Again, I appreciate the help - I do. But the cynic in me can't help but think "Mmhmm."
Fun fact: For just about anyone, it's not too terribly hard to get early release games. I've done it a few times; but usually just for the copies that I'm extremely excited for. Again, never stolen (heck, a lot of times the stores WILL let you ring out early copies for 3DS games, PS3 games, etc). I know in the next 90 days, Target will screw up at least once or twice (that's how I got OoT 3D early, Walmart will put out a Vita game early (Walmart doesn't register block a lot of Vita games), other big box stores have employees that don't care, and local mom-and-pop shops do this for their favorite customers ALL.THE.TIME. If you happen to live in NY - which I don't - you can find a small handful of stores selling games a few days early for just about any release. And I find it funny, because if you look at my early impressions here on GAF and elsewhere, they were pretty much universally praise for the title. Again - I have like 10+ copies of various Halos on my shelf dating all the way back for more than a decade. I wasn't causing MS any more damage than good PR. But now, it may be very childish.... but I just really want to get their next game early, rip it to shreds, and post spoiler pics everywhere, haha. I know, I know... childish. Probably won't do it. But, I just think it's funny that MS was so hard on me if in the end, all I did originally was help their cause. too bad, really.
Again, thank you for those that supported me. I'll keep an eye on this thread. But for now, I think our story is done. I'll update this thread again if that's not the case.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
You still haven't actually called MS customer service, have you?
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
I'm going to call them Monday now that I know what story MS is taking. I will update the thread if anything changes. Like I said earlier, I didn't want to call, out of respect, if it meant I'd be stepping on someone else's toes that was trying to help.
I will post on Monday if anything changes.
EDIT: I suppose it'd probably make more sense to post in that thread lexi linked, huh?
I will post on Monday if anything changes.
EDIT: I suppose it'd probably make more sense to post in that thread lexi linked, huh?
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
That's my reason why I'm 99.9% they won't do anything, and I'm really not that excited to be on hold for an hour while they tell me "no." I definitely wasn't going to call in the first week or two, as I was told it was no big deal to get solved. By the time I felt I wasn't getting further help, several weeks had passed. Good luck trying to get a phone rep up-to-speed on this whole series of events. Worth a shot, I suppose. But at this point, I've had three people working at MS tell me they can't do anything. I've honestly kind of moved on at this point; this whole thing just makes me mad and my time is worth something. But yeah, will update if need be.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Don't do it. Seriously, don't.
Instead, if you want to get back at Microsoft, just don't buy their future products ever again. Simple as that. (I can't believe the first thing you did was to go out and buy another console; sure, being able to play your games and all that, but in 10 years time you will probably be able to emulate them anyway.)
Fox Mulder
Member
A friend of mine got his account stolen by a MS points scam and just let it go, didn't bother to call MS or anything.
I was baffled more by that than how he fell for a scam.
shungokusatsu
Member
Given the OP's new reply, I'm going to go out on a limb and say they have a friend/family member working at a store like GameStop who hooked them up early. Not only would the store's number be on the receipt, but likely the name of the employee who rang up the copy as well.
I imagine the OP doesn't want to get the store or employee (friend/family?) in any trouble so they're keeping quiet. Given how much discussion this thread has generated and the fact someone from 343 saw it (and likely many more), it's become enough of a headache and potential bad press enough to piss them off to take action.
I imagine the OP doesn't want to get the store or employee (friend/family?) in any trouble so they're keeping quiet. Given how much discussion this thread has generated and the fact someone from 343 saw it (and likely many more), it's become enough of a headache and potential bad press enough to piss them off to take action.
I don't think you and many others in this thread understand what illegitimate software can be. You don't literally own the code on the disc you have. You own a license. When the store did not ring up your purchase until launch day you were not authorized to play yet as you did not own your license yet. This was a known agreement between you and the store.
This means that you were in fact playing an illegitimate copy of the game pre launch and now you have a legitimate copy post launch. It would be like me preloading a PC game, cracking it and then getting banned. I didn't own the license until launch but I still had access to the code. The main thing you keep missing is your paid license didn't start until launch day.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
No, I understand that. My argument was - and sorry if I worded it poorly - that "illegitimate" without any other context is a bad way to claim my ban is fair. Most people WILL construe "illegitimate" to equal "pirated." And I think MS knows that. It's more fair to say "...because your game was sold early, and thus illegitimate, we..."
I'm not a fan of using the word without further context, as it is easily misunderstood; and I think they realize that.
EDIT: Also, yes, I agree on a technical level - that's how it works. But I guess my side argument is "is that fair"? That's something I know different people will take different sides on.
Jack Scofield
Member
Wow, it's pretty lame how Frankie just stopped responding to your PMs. He always seems like a cool guy.
There is a fragment of hope left, OP. I'm fervently arguing what bullshit this is to said contact of mine, and it's possible some progress will be made.
The reason for the ban that is stated within the MS system seems to explicitly be 'Piracy'. MS reps would just look at the reason 'Piracy' and just say 'Well, it's pirated, that's why you're banned'. We know at this point it's a legitimate retail copy.
Posting on that forum is probably not something I recommend. You will just get some vague bullshit from the TOS about piracy, it is not in anyway an escalation channel.
The reason for the ban that is stated within the MS system seems to explicitly be 'Piracy'. MS reps would just look at the reason 'Piracy' and just say 'Well, it's pirated, that's why you're banned'. We know at this point it's a legitimate retail copy.
Posting on that forum is probably not something I recommend. You will just get some vague bullshit from the TOS about piracy, it is not in anyway an escalation channel.
paperspace
Member
Last edited:
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Again, thank you Lexi for your insight - it really is appreciated.
Do you recommend I call MS, then, tomorrow (or Tuesday depending on my work schedule)? Or while you're working on this or for a set period of time, would you prefer or recommend I wait? Or is there a specific number I should call rather than just Xbox support?
In any case, thanks, and enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm off to enjoy my day off.
He did pay. It is up to GameStop and the agents that they employ to uphold their own contracts, not consumers. TOS have been greatly challenged in many states. There sole purpose is to make it as difficult as possible for customers to sue.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Stop putting your faith into these internet good samaritans and try to resolve the issue like any other normal person would.
Ravensmash
Member
He's had an offer of help, it's understandable that it might be wise for him to wait while Lexi is in contact.
No problem, I hope something can be worked out. In my opinion, you have been wronged and I want to see that wrong righted.
I think calling customer support would only be an exercise in frustration. I personally don't believe that it will achieve anything at this point, and you would in all likelihood just be pointed to that forum where you can be quoted a paragraph of the ToS.
I know you might be wary about doing the whole waiting-for-someone-on-GAF-to-come-through-with-answers thing again, but whatever happens I will keep you updated and give you any information I have.
Call if you want though, I don't care about toes being tread on, I want to see your problem fixed above all.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
He's done that already. Where did it get him after a month? If these were people he personally knew that's one thing, but they're internet strangers that owe him nothing. Yes, for the umpteenth time, I know it's Frankie! The Halo guy! If he can't do it, no one can! Well he couldn't do it. Now some other dude who "knows someone" is going to take him for the same ride. Op shouldn't have even made this thread before actually calling up MS customer support and seeing what his avenues were.
Sounds like Microsoft's detection services are as bad as their TOS if what OP is saying is true.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Rubius gets the award for most nonsensical analogies on gaf. Jesus Christ. I'm convinced he/she has absolutely no idea how money, credit cards, theft, piracy, or contracts work.
I've made no promises other than keeping him informed on any progress. I'm putting a great friendship through awkward discussions about the OP purely out of my own motivation to see his consumer rights defended.
P.S. You all suck at analogies.
Cracking a game on PC is the same as putting the code you have in your Xbox and getting online in this argument. You have code you aren't authorized to use yet, you make an active choice to use it, you get banned.
Ah I see your point. No I don't think it's fair at all. I've said so in this thread a few pages back. I thought the initial reaction by MS was ok but that they should re-instate your console. It's just poor customer service and bad business.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Hey, do whatever you want. If some how you end up getting something done for the op, great, neat, cool. My point is he shouldn't be dumb enough to put the fate of anything of his, even if it's just his digital rights to his previous account/downloads, in the hands of people on an internet forum he has no relation to. But dude already bought another 360, and I'm assuming another subscription to Gold. In the end MS played him good.
vikingvessel
Member
jamesinclair
Banned
At this point, I'd start setting up an appointment with small claims court
robotzombie
Member
So a woman goes into a local mom and pop store because her kid was begging her to get a new game he wanted. Goes up to the counter and asks for said game, they give her the game, take her money, and she goes home and gives it to the kid. The kid starts playing and little do either of them know, the game is not yet "released". How in the fucking world is that scenario logically supposed to end in that family being punished by microsoft?
WHY IN THE FUCKING WORLD IS IT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CONSUMER TO KNOW ABOUT AND APPRECIATE RELEASE DATES?
And I know despite my scenario, you are going to tell me that this particular guy actually did know the release date and did know he was getting it early. WHO THE FUCK CARES? It is not the consumers responsibility to enforce street dates. If the store sold it to him early, its ONLY the store's fault and in no way, shape, or form should the consumer be responsible for "telling" on the store for selling it to them.
This is a fucking insane situation and anyone even remotely defending Microsoft in this should be embarrassed.
Edit: I would like to add to my point that absolutely nowhere on the content you actually purchase does it make any claim that "X item cannot be used until this date." Release date information is not given to a consumer in the transaction of them obtaining the product from a store, ever.
WHY IN THE FUCKING WORLD IS IT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CONSUMER TO KNOW ABOUT AND APPRECIATE RELEASE DATES?
And I know despite my scenario, you are going to tell me that this particular guy actually did know the release date and did know he was getting it early. WHO THE FUCK CARES? It is not the consumers responsibility to enforce street dates. If the store sold it to him early, its ONLY the store's fault and in no way, shape, or form should the consumer be responsible for "telling" on the store for selling it to them.
This is a fucking insane situation and anyone even remotely defending Microsoft in this should be embarrassed.
Edit: I would like to add to my point that absolutely nowhere on the content you actually purchase does it make any claim that "X item cannot be used until this date." Release date information is not given to a consumer in the transaction of them obtaining the product from a store, ever.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
While I have zero clue where the op got this game or how much truth/bullshit there is to anything he's said, there are retail locations that essentially allow you to pre-sell something in advance, usually when a big sale or event is coming up. While the item is purchased that day, the actual records/earnings are attributed to the day of the sale and the receipt is only valid from that time as well.
Dude.. there's 42 pages. What you've said has already been said 100x, and the reasons why it is the way it is have been said 100x, and people "defending" Microsoft have been called worse things. If you think the op has been wronged, vote with your wallet by not supporting MS or the Live service.
Uno Venova
Banned
It's not. a few people arguing for Microsoft have a problem with rewriting stories.
Holy crap , this still hasn't been resolved ? Thought this issue was dealt with after frank o ' conner promised to fix things.
It shouldn't be rocket science to unban this guy, really. Look at how much bad PR this issue gets. Sure he ended up buying a new system but seriously. This should have been as simple as unchecking a box next to his name and apparently no one will that.
Really makes me wonder how much bullshit we'll forced to endure on the next consoles when we have to tag a CD key to each copy that's signed into only 1 live account ... (remember all those anti used game rumors ? yeah this is how it'll come to pass for general consumers)
It shouldn't be rocket science to unban this guy, really. Look at how much bad PR this issue gets. Sure he ended up buying a new system but seriously. This should have been as simple as unchecking a box next to his name and apparently no one will that.
Really makes me wonder how much bullshit we'll forced to endure on the next consoles when we have to tag a CD key to each copy that's signed into only 1 live account ... (remember all those anti used game rumors ? yeah this is how it'll come to pass for general consumers)