Thanks.
I think the person in the road block gets swept up by a snow wave that the truck creates as it hits the snowbank. He seems to roll away and grab his weapon after.
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Leader of Oregon occupation Ammon Bundy, at least 8 others arrested
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Thanks.
I think the person in the road block gets swept up by a snow wave that the truck creates as it hits the snowbank. He seems to roll away and grab his weapon after.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
The son of Cliven Bundy is full of shit?Did...he actually run over an FBI agent?
And turns out Bundy was full of shit after all? I'm shocked.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
The son of Cliven Bundy is full of shit?
I don't think even he is saying the guy was surrendering. He's given statements since his arrest via a Lawyer, and that this guy was executed hasn't been in that.
Seems like the "execution" story originated with guy daughter of the guy who was killed. She says Bundy told her that he was executed.
Bundy called his wife and told her Finicum was shot on his knees with his hands up. She told Fiore, who widely publicized it.I don't think even he is saying the guy was surrendering. He's given statements since his arrest via a Lawyer, and that this guy was executed hasn't been in that.
Seems like the "execution" story originated with guy daughter of the guy who was killed. She says Bundy told her that he was executed.
I am assuming the FBI agent was unharmed as there were no reports of Law Enforcement injuries.
It certainly looks like it was a close miss though.
As the chopper turns, you can see the same agent swept up in the snow run out from where he was and back into cover
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
From Get Some to Dont Want None in 1 day. Amazing.
As the chopper turns, you can see the same agent swept up in the snow run out from where he was and back into cover
I thought it was a drone
CHEEZMO™;193611287 said:
Looks like he came within inches of running over a cop when he went off road. The cop ran in the wrong way right into the path but that shouldn't be on the cop. The guy kept changing from hands up to reaching for something in his waistband. Extremely stupid.
MHWilliams
Member
Potentially, it looks like he reached for a weapon, but from that range, I certainly couldn't tell.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
looks pretty clear to me. Also the smoke at 10:20, was someone firing from the car?
The order of events is something like this:
- The car is initially stopped peacefully
- Some sort of exchange between police and those in the car take place, but without audio we can't say what
- The driver makes the choice to flee and gets away
- Some time up the road the police have a roadblock (unclear if this was established before or after the initial stop)
- Guy sees police at roadblock and swerves into snow (potentially striking an officer who is trying to stop them, but looks like this is not a deliberate situation)
- Guy gets out of car with hands up. At least two officers have firearms pointed at him, one from the woods with what looks like a carbine or rifle, one from the street side with what looks like a pistol.
- Both are at fairly close range, less than 10 feet certainly
- Presumably they are saying things at this point, but we don't have audio.
- At some point he takes down his arms and is reaching into his left pocket or the left side of his waistband with his right arm.
- Officers, fearing that he is reaching for a firearm, shoot him. It is unclear if he was reaching for a firearm. It is unclear how many times they shoot him but it looks quite quick. We quickly see the left officer lower his weapon.
- The guy falls to the ground, and both officers withdraw, presumably to figure out if he has been disabled or is still a threat.
- Shortly afterwards, a series of flashbangs or smoke devices are used against the car. I think this is what you are talking about when you say "was someone firing from the car?"
- After a few minutes, they are able to get the remaining occupants of the car out peacefully. At this point, a laser sight is trained on the fallen man, presumably in case he is still a threat.
To me, this looks relatively by the book, absent audio that would provide some extenuating circumstance. In light of the fact that the officers used nonlethal force against the other occupants of the car and the initial stop did not involve lethal force, it certainly does not look like they tried to kill him in cold blood. Likewise, the officers do not fire until he reaches into his jacket/waistband. Now, it may have been a panic move by him, he didn't necessarily intend to harm him, but given the prior statements he made, the likelihood of him being armed, and the nature of the move it seems to me like the shot was justified.
Most of the criticism I'd have of this would be broader parameters of police use of force: why not shoot to disable (I know the arguments made against shooting to disable, I don't find them convincing especially in light of non-US law enforcement experiences), why not use the nonlethal ammunition during the initial exchange, etc. But I don't think that makes this a murder.
It further seems that once the initial stop happened, most of the decisions that lead to the eventual shooting death were made by the victim (i.e. the perp), not law enforcement.
As I said when I previously posted here I don't think death is good, even of bad people. A better situation would have been if the driver had avoided reaching for something, or got on the ground faster, or didn't go off the road, or didn't speed off, or wasn't part of an armed occupation of a wildlife reserve. But given that all of those things happened, this seemed like the least bad outcome, and I think that's something to be thankful for.
Bornstellar
Member
And there it is. Pleased by how quickly this was released, though the lack of audio is annoying. Finicum should have kept his hands up. Though it also looks like he didn't actually draw? From what I can see his hands stayed at his side, and it doesn't look like he managed to unholster a weapon so I am curious what was being said. Perhaps his intent was suicide by cop.CHEEZMO;193611287 said:
But yeah, can't really blame the LEOs given the circumstances here.
I'm sure Fiore will apologize for spreading inflammatory and false information.
Ha!
FelixOrion
Poet Centuriate
When the truck hits the snowbank it looks like he clips a deputy.
Yeah looks like he plowed through an agent.
I like how someone was in the trees. Although that could have turned into a wicked crossfire situation.
Did...he actually run over an FBI agent?
And turns out Bundy was full of shit after all? I'm shocked.
Yeah, that's was attempted murder of a police officer.
As the chopper turns, you can see the same agent swept up in the snow run out from where he was and back into cover
I thought it was a drone
The FBI press release said it was actually a plane
And there it is. Pleased by how quickly this was released, though the lack of audio is annoying. Finicum should have kept his hands up. Though it also looks like he didn't actually draw? From what I can see his hands stayed at his side, and it doesn't look like he managed to unholster a weapon so I am curious what was being said. Perhaps his intent was suicide by cop.
But yeah, can't really blame the LEOs given the circumstances here.
Finicum had said numerous times that he never intend to be arrested and that he would fight. I'd argue putting his hands up like that was a (fucking dumb) ploy to draw officers in so he could do more serious damage. Just speculation though.
Well I'm always one to wait for evidence to surface before calling it (although given the circumstances its hardly surprising). That was self defense on the agent for sure. I'd have done the same thing. He fled from the police, almost killed an officer by hitting him with the truck, then reached down to his waistband while he clearly had a holster there. Dumb, dumb idea. I'd still like a dashcam or something with audio, and I'm not happy he died but this was self defense on the part of the agent without a doubt.
Also the FBI knew he was armed and dangerous. This was amazing work done by them. It very well could have ended with everyone in that truck dead, and a few cops as well.
Edit: Upon viewing the press release, it wasn't a holster, but a pocket, and he reached for it twice. I wonder who the unnamed people who weren't arrested were? Children, or maybe informants, probably.
Also the FBI knew he was armed and dangerous. This was amazing work done by them. It very well could have ended with everyone in that truck dead, and a few cops as well.
Edit: Upon viewing the press release, it wasn't a holster, but a pocket, and he reached for it twice. I wonder who the unnamed people who weren't arrested were? Children, or maybe informants, probably.
sir_kevith
Member
Most of the criticism I'd have of this would be broader parameters of police use of force: why not shoot to disable (I know the arguments made against shooting to disable, I don't find them convincing especially in light of non-US law enforcement experiences), why not use the nonlethal ammunition during the initial exchange, etc. But I don't think that makes this a murder.
If the dude is going for a gun you gotta kill him before he gets a chance to get a shot off. If you shoot to disable he could still grab the gun and shoot back even if he's fucked up.
I do agree with you that they should try to shoot to disable but since we're a nation of gun nuts so it's fuckin hard. In this case they knew these guys were armed and theyve been talking about how they werent afraid to use their guns.
all fun, games, and dldos until shit gets real.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
The dildos brought them closer together..so silver lining.all fun, games, and dldos until shit gets real.
The dildos brought them closer together..so silver lining.
I look forward to the eventual made for tv movie.
I thought it was a drone
Assumed helicopter. ... Whatever shot the footage we're watching, it's less relevant than what I was trying to explain. The agent seemingly survives getting hit by the truck/wall of snow unharmed
Beer Monkey
Member
Dude was most obviously reaching in his jacket when shot.
Period.
Period.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
I hate these d-bags as much as the next guy, and it does look like he's reaching for something right before he is shot, but even if the shooting was justified it seems kind of fucked up that they just left him laying there in the snow. Couldn't they drag him out and try to administer first aid or something?
I hate these d-bags as much as the next guy, and it does look like he's reaching for something right before he is shot, but even if the shooting was justified it seems kind of fucked up that they just left him laying there in the snow. Couldn't they drag him out and try to administer first aid or something?
They had to make sure the others in the truck weren't going to open fire on them with the automatic weapons that were later found inside of it.
MHWilliams
Member
I hate these d-bags as much as the next guy, and it does look like he's reaching for something right before he is shot, but even if the shooting was justified it seems kind of fucked up that they just left him laying there in the snow. Couldn't they drag him out and try to administer first aid or something?
They had to handle the situation in the truck first, unfortunately.
gutter_trash
Banned
The vehicle and the remaining occupants of the vehicle had to be secured first.I hate these d-bags as much as the next guy, and it does look like he's reaching for something right before he is shot, but even if the shooting was justified it seems kind of fucked up that they just left him laying there in the snow. Couldn't they drag him out and try to administer first aid or something?
These men were extremists and precautions had to be taken
I look forward to the eventual made for tv movie.
Bah. This should be Michael Bays next Pain and Gain.
Outside of that, I hope for the eventual arrest and humiliation of all these morons.
I'm sure Fiore will apologize for spreading inflammatory and false information.
She's too busy wishing him happy birthday.
I'm not kidding.
boiled goose
good with gravy
While one of the "least unjustified shootings", I still think officers shouldnt have shot him so fast.
The burden should be to at least seeing a firearm and perhaps even raising it or attempting to point it.
" i thought he was reaching for a Gun" has resulted in too many unjustified shootings.
The burden should be to at least seeing a firearm and perhaps even raising it or attempting to point it.
" i thought he was reaching for a Gun" has resulted in too many unjustified shootings.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
While one of the "least unjustified shootings", I still think officers shouldnt have shot him so fast.
The burden should be to at least seeing a firearm and perhaps even raising it or attempting to point it.
" i thought he was reaching for a Gun" has resulted in too many unjustified shootings.
In other cases I would certainly agree.
In this case though the officers had every reason to believe going in that they were armed and we're willing to die rather than be arrested.
While one of the "least unjustified shootings", I still think officers shouldnt have shot him so fast.
The burden should be to at least seeing a firearm and perhaps even raising it or attempting to point it.
" i thought he was reaching for a Gun" has resulted in too many unjustified shootings.
I mean they knew he was armed though. And he almost killed a cop as it was. But I would like to see how the cops acted with audio, like a dashcam or something.
gutter_trash
Banned
he was guilty of attempted murder using a vehicleI mean they knew he was armed though. And he almost killed a cop as it was. But I would like to see how the cops acted with audio, like a dashcam or something.
Plasticine
Member
Bah. This should be Michael Bays next Pain and Gain.
Outside of that, I hope for the eventual arrest and humiliation of all these morons.
I was thinking it would be more like a Coen brothers movie.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
While one of the "least unjustified shootings", I still think officers shouldnt have shot him so fast.
The burden should be to at least seeing a firearm and perhaps even raising it or attempting to point it.
" i thought he was reaching for a Gun" has resulted in too many unjustified shootings.
Usually, it's not 'I thought he was reaching for a gun and he's been saying he wanted to shoot people and die for his cause for a couple of weeks.'
Let's not conflate the two. It does a disservice to others who have been shot for no good reason. I mean, this guy did all the things you would tell your kid not to do. Threaten a police officer, carry a loaded gun, evade police, damn near hit a police officer during that pursuit, go on youtube and state you are willing to die.
The sickness of shooting unarmed people is trying to deceptively paint unarmed citizens as a possible Ammon Bundy or these other terrorists. Arguing against killing unarmed citizens doesn't have a lot of crossover with a known terrorist hijacking federal land, torturing a town for weeks, threatening law enforcement, etc.
I hate these d-bags as much as the next guy, and it does look like he's reaching for something right before he is shot, but even if the shooting was justified it seems kind of fucked up that they just left him laying there in the snow. Couldn't they drag him out and try to administer first aid or something?
Not only that, they were throwing flash bangs. The round of Counter Strikes was still going.They had to make sure the others in the truck weren't going to open fire on them with the automatic weapons that were later found inside of it.
outunderthestars
Banned
While one of the "least unjustified shootings", I still think officers shouldnt have shot him so fast.
The burden should be to at least seeing a firearm and perhaps even raising it or attempting to point it.
" i thought he was reaching for a Gun" has resulted in too many unjustified shootings.
And waiting until they had the gun in their hands would result in more officers being killed.
He was armed, running from the police, and went to his waist with his hands. That is going to get you shot almost every single time.
gamechanger87
Member
While one of the "least unjustified shootings", I still think officers shouldnt have shot him so fast.
The burden should be to at least seeing a firearm and perhaps even raising it or attempting to point it.
" i thought he was reaching for a Gun" has resulted in too many unjustified shootings.
The moment you see a gun pointed at you it is already too late to react. Just having a gun doesn't immediately get you shot, but reaching to pull it out or aiming you weapon at something will. If you don't have a weapon in your hand, but you are reaching for it and you are known to be armed, you will not get a chance to take it out.
Its like the shoot to wound argument. All it takes is one officer being killed because he waited for the training to change.
Brian Griffin
Member
They also allowed him to stay in the "reaching for a gun" pose for multiple seconds before shooting, presumably trying to persuade him to comply.And waiting until they had the gun in their hands would result in more officers being killed.
He was armed, running from the police, and went to his waist with his hands. That is going to get you shot almost every single time.
Compare that to the 0 seconds many unarmed victims of police shootings get when they so much as move their hand in the general direction of their waist. This guy was given so many chances to not get shot and he turned them all down.
gutter_trash
Banned
the agents did their job and took down a terrorist
No I don't think so, first, guilty implies he was tried. Second, from my position it looks like he was trying to get around the blockade, the officer wasn't visible until the last second. I don't think he was attempting to murder that officer.he was guilty of attempted murder using a vehicle
When he jumped out though, who knows. I can't be confident from the video, but I can at least believe he was reaching for something on his belt potentially. My only worry is that my first gut instinct was that he was wobbly on that snow bank, and was lowering his hands because he couldn't keep balance with them up - which to an officer who knows he's armed, and probably saw the revolver on his belt, would have looked like he was reaching for the gun. But he could have also been reaching for the gun.
gutter_trash
Banned
when wobbling on a snow bank, you stick your arms out to brace for a fall, you don't lower your hands towards your waist/pockets
he was going for his gun
terrorist he was
he was going for his gun
terrorist he was
I thought it was a drone
Nah surveillance plane.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
For what these guys did, they were treated incredibly well since day 1.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Usually, it's not 'I thought he was reaching for a gun and he's been saying he wanted to shoot people and die for his cause for a couple of weeks.'
Let's not conflate the two. It does a disservice to others who have been shot for no good reason. I mean, this guy did all the things you would tell your kid not to do. Threaten a police officer, carry a loaded gun, evade police, damn near hit a police officer during that pursuit, go on youtube and state you are willing to die.
The sickness of shooting unarmed people is trying to deceptively paint unarmed citizens as a possible Ammon Bundy or these other terrorists. Arguing against killing unarmed citizens doesn't have a lot of crossover with a known terrorist hijacking federal land, torturing a town for weeks, threatening law enforcement, etc.
Not only that, they were throwing flash bangs. The round of Counter Strikes was still going.
I know and I largely agree. This guy had made comments before regarding not being arrested peacefully.
I know it makes a difference, practically.
I am still worried about having the legal standard be "fear for my life". It is too subjective.
Is there any way we could delineate this shooting and the unarmed ones? (Legal standard)
For what these guys did, they were treated incredibly well since day 1.
Yup definitely. The double standard is so clear it hurts...
Ideally... the police would show such restraint consistently. Id rather they have patience and spend some money than kill people unnecessarily.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Unbelievable..
LucidMomentum
Member
Unbelievable..
It's okay Gordon. Some people are just now realizing the things minorities have to go through every day.
In a way, we should be thanking these patriots and their militia for showing us that yes, all lives do matter.
If only there was a movement to show people that police violence should be scrutinized whenever it is utilized, even in routine situations.
Wouldn't that help make the world a better place? I mean, once they're done blocking public areas instead of working or peacefully protesting.
It's up to you to decide whether I'm talking about the Bundies or BLM on that last one.
/S
captjohnboyd
Member
So glad someone took the time to edit this down into a form I can easily show all my friends and coworkers. Gives me some solid entertainment for the next week
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