DrFaustPhD
Member
Fucking finally.
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Leader of Oregon occupation Ammon Bundy, at least 8 others arrested
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PeteZaTheHutt
Member
To those who are saying that the feds should have starved them out, you are making a very large assumption that these lunatics would simply give up and leave peacefully once they ran out of food and got hungry. It would have been ideal, I agree. But these occupiers are unpredictable and armed. There's no guarantee that starving them out wouldn't have led to them coming out guns ablazin' in response to being beseiged. While it is unfortunate that somebody had to die, I think that the feds actually got a fortunate outcome whereby pretty much the entire leadership of this group has been captured without any loss to LEOs in one quick fell swoop.
Don't get me wrong though, I believe that the feds should have locked down the refuge and cut off power and access from day 1. I'm simply stating that the result (so far) is fortuitous given that all signs were pointing toward a potential fuck-up of massive proportions. Unfortunately, there are still occupiers at the preserve, so the shit could still hit the fan despite the relative success of apprehending the leadership.
Don't get me wrong though, I believe that the feds should have locked down the refuge and cut off power and access from day 1. I'm simply stating that the result (so far) is fortuitous given that all signs were pointing toward a potential fuck-up of massive proportions. Unfortunately, there are still occupiers at the preserve, so the shit could still hit the fan despite the relative success of apprehending the leadership.
That Representative's tweet was incredibly incendiary. I hope it doesn't incite the people at the refuge to do something really stupid.
But what if the Feds are sovereign citizens making them not bound by US law?
But what if the Feds are sovereign citizens making them not bound by US law?
Chie Satonaka
Member
I know.
This is the reason the whole hands off stuff makes me so angry. There shouldn't BE a statement from the Bundy Ranch. Cliven Bundy should be in jail and his land should be seized. It frustrates me that these idiots have been going about their business for as long as they did, especially given that I think that other groups wouldn't have likely been met with kids gloves.
If it turns out that I'm wrong, I'll be wrong and move on.
That's a fair point.
Yeah, it's at 10:30 am PST, rather than pm. Makes more sense to have it in the morning.
Bornstellar
Member
That was never the case. They were glorified squatters.
Cranky, nutjob livecast on the shootings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUl_TEtV-3w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUl_TEtV-3w
Chie Satonaka
Member
"I'm seeing all the propaganda that's being put out there and it makes me frickin' want to throw up."
Oh, tomorrow is gonna be a wild ride.
the first thing i heard when i clicked the link was Alex Jones lol
Chie Satonaka
Member
They're actually talking shit about Alex and were accusing him of being an Agent Provocateur.
Listening to these people is like experiencing life in another dimension. Like, they live in a completely different place.
Quadrophenic
Member
Am I reading this right, that Jason Ritzheimer was arrested in Arizona, not Oregon? The fact that he had left the Refuge and gone back home seems significant. Especially considering he was the guy (i think) on those early videos talking big game about how he's willing to die for the liberty of his kids or whatever. Ok...actually, not that surprising he's all talk.
Well we will learn a little bit in the morning. But with some of them still on refuge we have a ways to go still. The terrorists still there could commit more crimes.
AstroNut325
Member
So is the occupation over? Sad to hear there was a death involved.
Not yet. They got some of the major players which brings hope but who knows how the holdouts will respond.
GillianSeed79
Member
About damn time. Assuming the cops didn't just fuck up and kill the one guy without cause, they could technically charge Bundy and the crew with felony murder. For example, if Dick and Jane decide to go and rob a liquor store, but the clerk pulls out a shotgun and blows Jane's head off during the robbery, Dick can be charged with the murder of Jane. Why? Because it was the act of committing a felony (the robbery) that directly led to Jane's death, even though Dick didn't kill her.
Beer Monkey
Member
March Against Monsanto posted an anti-chemtrail rant yesterday.
There's cognitive dissonance on the Left and the Right (intentional caps).
I didn't want anybody to die. But watch out for what you wish for. Martyrdom, especially.
BluePigGanon
Member
That Youtube stream. It's grown adults playing pretend.
SliceSabre
Banned
Sad that someone had to die but I'm glad the FBI finally got off their fucking asses and did something instead of letting these 'patriots' run around playing pretend.
White privilege is an incredible thing and is on full display in Oregon right now. Had this been a bunch of brown people the FBI would have gone in so hard on them there wouldn't have been enough of the people left to put in even one body bag.
White privilege is an incredible thing and is on full display in Oregon right now. Had this been a bunch of brown people the FBI would have gone in so hard on them there wouldn't have been enough of the people left to put in even one body bag.
Yep. And it ended with a gun fight and a death so honesty the FBI look a bit poor overall. Should have just held Seige and waited; this is not Waco these guys were out for economic gain and clearly could have been shown how powerless they were.
Beer Monkey
Member
How would it have not ended in a gun fight?
Oppo
Member
ok? you want to apply Whataboutism to this?
Edit: Sorry, thought the tweets was from someone that was at the refuge. Thought she had taken the pics and the tweets makes it sound like she is/was there but some was from a live stream by the occupants, some was from a parody account and some stuff from other social media pages.
Those inside would have had to fight out, surrender or starve. Clearly this shoot out ended with one side giving up. The skirmish that ended in a death was avoidable.
Bornstellar
Member
...
That's not how murder works. Manslaughter? Maybe, but even then, that's tenuous at best.
Where are people getting the gun fight narrative from? That implies shots were fired on both sides, which does not appear to be the case. Hopefully, there are no more casualties.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
It may very well have been, for some unknown fucking reason they just let everything go on like normal, no blockade, free traffic in and out, and last I heard they still had power.
Not sure what the laws there are, but it can be.
Bornstellar
Member
Murder implies intent to kill, whereas manslaughter implies actions without intent to kill resulting in death.
It's not like the FBI were just sitting around. They decided to wait until an opertune moment to try to have the most effect, rather than take a gamble with a siege or individual arrests.
Honestly I don't know what would have happened with a bunch of brown or black people had taken over a ranch like this. I have no doubt the response would be different, but to what degree there is no way of telling. At the moment theres not too much history of this sort of specific terrorism by anyone other than (usually white) domestic terrorists or cults. The only one that even remotely comes to mind is the Occupation of Alcatraz, and that is a whole different scenario than this, Waco, or Ruby Ridge.
What is known is that federal authorities have had a shitty track record with dealing with loonies and terrorists in compounds in the past, as their response has usually been to attempt to siege the compound, to rather disastrous results. They tried something different, and even if it made them look dumb for a while it actually turned out quite well. That's not to make light of the one death, but honestly this could have ended in bloodbath had the wrong moves been taken.
LaVoy Finicum didn't seem like a bad person even though he was misguided in his efforts. It is a total tragedy that someone is killed as a result of occupying a public building. If he tried to fight against the federal officers, obviously he alone is responsible for this outcome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX6icu72bRg
Some farmers might have legitimate arguments against federal land use but this was just a complete waste of time, energy and human life..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX6icu72bRg
Some farmers might have legitimate arguments against federal land use but this was just a complete waste of time, energy and human life..
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I would argue that there's a massive difference between "occupation" and "armed occupation followed by threats of violence".
Bornstellar
Member
It is sad, and as with many other cases, I'm perturbed by not only the lack of charity, but the outright bloodlust demonstrated in various comments.
Of course. But my understanding is that this was literally in the middle-of-nowhere. A bunch of empty buildings where men were role playing freedom fighters. I don't want to make any excuses for these sovereign citizen types but these farmers didn't seem to pose any immediate threat to anyone.
I suppose something had to be done after officers retreated in the previous Bundy standoff. Hopefully it wasn't the FBI that started the shooting, because you don't want to create martyrs. Or who knows, maybe he had a death wish.
Edit : Apparently the guy had 11 foster kids as well. What a mess.
It's time for you to research "felony murder."
Bornstellar
Member
It sounds like the LEOs were the only ones to actually fire. There's conflicting accounts of when and why however.
AFAIK, this is generally not applied when the deceased is a offender.
I believe it varies by state. Here is a case where a burglar was charged with the death of his accomplice that was shot by the homeowner.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-burglar-murder-charged-20140725-story.html
That said it is probably something hard to get a conviction for.
FreedomFighter
Member
Still trying to figure out how these dudes get mail delivery (the irony kills me) and give press conferences everyday after and armed takeover of a federal building. White people don't know how good they got it man.
It can be, but your response about requiring intent to kill makes this distinction meaningless, as you clearly were not aware of the felony murder rule.
Bornstellar
Member
Can't say I was well versed on the details, but I was aware of it. I was choosing to ignore it many cases it's bullshit. ALSO because it's an exception to the rule.
EDIT: Awfully presumptuous to say what I was or was not aware of. Fine, I made a mistake. Happy?
Unlawful killings without malice or intent are considered manslaughter generally.
Also, re: why felony murder can be awful: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/life-in-prison-felony-murder/
No you weren't. And I have no idea what you mean about "many cases."
Why is it so hard for people to admit a mistake on the Internet? No one is going to care that you didn't initially know about the rule. A lot of people probably don't. What do you get out of being so stubborn?
Mr. Giggles
Member
Man that tweet from the Nevada republican rep.
Glad Twitter is not putting up with that shit, but still
Glad Twitter is not putting up with that shit, but still
Have no idea if this was posted yet but apparently this dude is broadcasting live from the Oregon compound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wZ46JBe0QM
Mostly talking about how evil the government is and how much the way you die matters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wZ46JBe0QM
Mostly talking about how evil the government is and how much the way you die matters.
What did he say?
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
That the militia guy was murdered and had his hands up
Bornstellar
Member
She said the person who died did so with their hands up.
EDIT: Watching the stream of comments from both sides on that video has me losing faith in humanity.
It's not presumptuous. It's apparent in your posts. If you had even the slightest knowledge of it, you would have acknowledged that that's what was being described, then launched into your criticism (either thinking it wouldn't apply to that situation or calling the rule unjust). Instead, you acted baffled that that first poster believed his hypothetical could result in a murder charge (indicated by you beginning with "..."), told him that isn't how murder works, then gave another poster a "lesson" in the distinction between murder and manslaughter.
Your explanation about why you chose to ignore the rule makes absolutely no sense. Apparently, if you believe something is unjust, you choose to ignore it, and inform people they are wrong when they describe it to you. That's an interesting way of interacting with people.
I see. Doesn't seem likely that is the case.
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