outunderthestars
Banned
This was one of the takeaways after the Waco incident.
I just want to see the wildlife refuge staff get their facility back so they can go back to work.
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Leader of Oregon occupation Ammon Bundy, at least 8 others arrested
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This was one of the takeaways after the Waco incident.
I just want to see the wildlife refuge staff get their facility back so they can go back to work.
The Jackdog
Member
i dont see the surprise in someone losing their life. its a tragedy, but when you wave a gun around and dare people to come take it from you when youre in the middle of breaking the law, basically domestic terrorism, someone is gonna catch a bullet.
I believe if the FED or the cops shot first, there would be 6-7 deaths, not 1.
I've read reports that said they supposedly couldn't cut off the power to the refuge because the way the electric grid was set up would cause it to also shut off power from the surrounding area (which includes lots of houses) as well.
Brian Griffin
Member
Not sure if this info has been discussed yet but I caught an NPR call with a reporter at the compound. He said the FBI has blocked all the roads and set up checkpoints. Leaving is a hassle so he and other media people are opting to stay for the time being. He said the militia took a vote and will not be leaving any time soon. He said the guy who was shot was a good friend of a 27yr old militia man who said in some audio they played that they will have to come kill him. The reporter also said he had made some comments or video sympathizing with ISIS but the guy who was just killed had kept him in check and defended him. Now that he's dead this kid could become pretty scary.
I'm glad there has been some response, and a pretty big response considering they got the leaders, but it feels like more lives could be lost now that the militia have a martyr.
I'm glad there has been some response, and a pretty big response considering they got the leaders, but it feels like more lives could be lost now that the militia have a martyr.
Pilgrimzero
Member
Already my Facebook has people linking to articles (on right wing sites) that say the guy was shot execution style.
Ugh. I want to say something but what's the point.
Ugh. I want to say something but what's the point.
gutter_trash
Banned
Shots fired? Buh bye.
Go to jail for a long time
Go to jail for a long time
Hydrophobic
Member
Most articles with comment sections are going to be terrible about this (ignoring the fact that they usually are terrible anyways). I read a comment yesterday that said something like 'BlackLivesMatter can block a bridge, but these people can't protest peacefully without getting shot at' or something like that and I was just utterly stunned at the lack of perspective. I probably shouldn't be stunned, but I am.
I'm actually pretty stunned at how quickly this fizzled out, with probably more than half the militia goons already having bailed.
It might be that these guys thought they would get legitimacy and backup from Republican media and politicians on every level of government like they did at the Bundy Ranch. But that didn't materialize and now that the Feds/Cops actually started arresting people (as well as killing one), these guys must have realized that they'll actually be getting in trouble for once and that it was a good time to high tail it out of there.
It might be that these guys thought they would get legitimacy and backup from Republican media and politicians on every level of government like they did at the Bundy Ranch. But that didn't materialize and now that the Feds/Cops actually started arresting people (as well as killing one), these guys must have realized that they'll actually be getting in trouble for once and that it was a good time to high tail it out of there.
The thing about these people are they work themselves up believing whatever is going to happen is going to cause the second great civil war/revolution that causes America to be "won back" for the people. They talk about it and get hyped up only when they get together, it doesn't happen. They start get deflated and when reality becomes too much, well they either split or they do something stupid and get arrested.
LucidMomentum
Member
Tell them he shouldn't have been breaking the law and should've complied then. That's the usual response when it happens to minorities, right?
Racism and bigotry are quick ways to appear ignorant. When a black child gets shot for playing with a toy gun and this "militia" is referred to as a "peaceful protest," you know things aren't right.
SMH.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
It's certainly possible, but I think there is a huge difference.
In this case, these were armed men, who have been threatening to kill law enforcement for a month. The man who was killed even saying he would rather be killed than arrested. If it turns out that the Feds shot first, I would be very inclined to believe that the Feds feared for their lives in this instance, and were totally justified in doing so.
Omegasquash
Member
Jesus Christ, do people think these folks are like Occupy Wall Street or Black Lives Matter?
You don't protest by making demands and occupying federal land with guns. These people are thugs that have assumed control of federal property (albeit small). Any system of government isn't going to take that, and nor should they.
The weaponry they toted implies that they're willing to use it. This isn't one guy driving a fucking tractor to the White House, these are armed occupants that are making actual demands that the constitution be interpreted in a way that most benefits them.
They're terrorists at worst, and armed thugs at best. They should all be arrested, and if they're stupid enough to go down in what they think is a blaze of glory, that's a damn shame for the loss of life to them and their families, but I'm not going to give even approaching a fuck about them in comparison to the lives that have been taken needlessly by law enforcement against straight up innocent people.
These occupiers deserve to be vilified.
You don't protest by making demands and occupying federal land with guns. These people are thugs that have assumed control of federal property (albeit small). Any system of government isn't going to take that, and nor should they.
The weaponry they toted implies that they're willing to use it. This isn't one guy driving a fucking tractor to the White House, these are armed occupants that are making actual demands that the constitution be interpreted in a way that most benefits them.
They're terrorists at worst, and armed thugs at best. They should all be arrested, and if they're stupid enough to go down in what they think is a blaze of glory, that's a damn shame for the loss of life to them and their families, but I'm not going to give even approaching a fuck about them in comparison to the lives that have been taken needlessly by law enforcement against straight up innocent people.
These occupiers deserve to be vilified.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
From NBC Story...
I've been laughing for the last 5 minutes over the bolded line.
I've been laughing for the last 5 minutes over the bolded line.
Live stream of the remaining miltitia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUvpw2dNScg
edit: bugger, it's already over
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUvpw2dNScg
edit: bugger, it's already over
Ask why did the Feds only shoot one of the guys execution style and left the other as witnesses?
I saw on another site the guy who was shot, tried to drive away from the arrest and got stuck in a snow bank. He exited the car and charged at law enforcement.
Omegasquash
Member
Am I crazy, or do some of them look really smug for folks that just saw a friend die?
Or were these photos taken before the arrest?
Or were these photos taken before the arrest?
Raptor2155
Member
Yeah man. Except they forget that all these dudes were packing rifles and threatening to shoot cops.
It's pretty rascist.
Ryan Bundy looks really bummed out about this
Yup. They all look as I expected.
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
RIP tarp man.
gutter_trash
Banned
what's a LEO?
seriously, never heard this term before
Law Enforcement Operator?
seriously, never heard this term before
Law Enforcement Operator?
Officer.
outunderthestars
Banned
Ryan Bundy looks really bummed out about this
The photo kind of looks like they all made fake badges to wear.
gutter_trash
Banned
I played too much Rainbow 6 Siege on the Oregon map
Elaugaufein
Member
Close: Law Enforcement Officer
I don't understand this. If you're leading an occupation, you don't take a road trip. You stay in the building you're occupying. You definitely don't announce your plans to leave and drive on the one highway that connects the two locations.
Did they want to get caught or force a confrontation?
Did they want to get caught or force a confrontation?
Netherscourge
Banned
Ryan Bundy looks really bummed out about this
Crazy, armed white people = biggest threat to this country.
Elaugaufein
Member
They've been taking road trips the entire time. I mean I think it's make sense from what they were trying to achieve ideologically (effectively claiming the land from the Federal Government by treating it as theirs, which requires them to pretty much otherwise carry on as normal) it just makes no sense from a real world tactical perspective.
TuckingFypo
Member
Well overdue! It looked like it was going to drag on forever. I guess I need to do some reading to get up to date.
Without a sound tactical plan it doesn't matter what your ideology is.
It's funny. There are plenty of examples of how to do this throughout history, but these people strike me as the type to have studied a very narrow slice of history.
BattleMonkey
Member
Prepared to die over someone else breaking the law who turned themselves in.
Jeez, what's up with the skewed distribution of federal lands anyway?
Homestead Act ended, so any remaining land defaulted to becoming federally owned land.
As it was, any settlement out west was massively subsidized, so amusingly anyone saying "the land should be ours!", it's only sustainable because the fed gov't pays you to be on it.
also, I think that map is including Reservations as federal land.
This is a map of the US with the reservations removed:
Which are technically sovereign-but-not-sovereign
definitely not a tragedy in my book.
JetBlackPanda
Member
Someone is dead and I feel bad about it. However the guy was part of an armed militia that took over a federal building so.. I can't feel to bad about it.
My Facebook feed is filled with shit about an unarmed patriot being cut down in cold blood. These same people didn't give a shit about any of the countless black citizens being shot down in cold blood.
Apparently stealing a cigar is not the same as seizing a federal building.
My Facebook feed is filled with shit about an unarmed patriot being cut down in cold blood. These same people didn't give a shit about any of the countless black citizens being shot down in cold blood.
Apparently stealing a cigar is not the same as seizing a federal building.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
"Bad people deserve to die" is the same framework that justifies Wild West gun culture and racialized police escalation of violence to begin with. The only philosophy that leads to a world with less violence is one that believes that any use of violence is a bad thing--even if it sometimes also less bad than the alternative of not using violence.
The reasons why someone might get involved in a group like this are long and complicated and might involve mental illness or lack of opportunity (or if for some reason you believe in it, People Just Being Evil Very Bad People Who Are Bad) but irrespective of what brought us to this situation I hope we would all agree that for the sake of the deceased, his family and loved ones, the cop or cops who had to make the decision to shoot, their family and loved ones, and the broader community, it's regrettable that it got to this point.
It's fair to celebrate that relative to other outcomes, the number of casualties was low, but why celebrate casualties at all? The better outcome is if no one, including no Bad People, died. Relief is understandable, but a measure of sobriety when considering someone died costs nothing and makes us a kinder world.
They're Racists rooting for their tribe. No way around it at this point.
Not surprising seeing as GOP has pushing division politics for 30 years. Hate the other, they're coming for you!
adamsappel
Member
Have you ever been to Nevada? It's a hellish moonscape and there's a reason we used it to test nuclear weapons. Turning it into glass is an improvement.
BronsonLee
Member
*flying elbow drop*
You should work for the Nevada tourism board
Elaugaufein
Member
Well yes. The entire militia movement and it's variants have no real understanding of legal history or religious history or pretty much anything relating to their underlying causes let alone anything else . Short of some of them being ex-military I wouldn't expect them to have any knowledge of defensive strategy or tactics (it's not like anyone else is going to be trained in occupying an area in hostile territory).
I don't imagine these are the kind of people who make the best of friends.
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