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LTTP: Star Wars 1-7 (Mainly Prequels-TFA)
- Thread starter DarkLordMalik
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DarkLordMalik
Member
Maybe not worse, but he isn't any better either. Now since he wasn't a one-off character like Darth Maul, maybe they can develop his character into something better in the sequel.
Chip N Chance
Member
Its so funny that you say that because i have totally thought of things like "the clone wars" and "Anikin" throughout the years. Ive watched reviews for the movies, thats about it.
Obligatory
1. A New Hope
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Force Awakens
4. Return of The Jedi
5. ???
6. ???
7. ???
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Maul has an air of mystery and generally being a badass dude. He kills Qui Gon in a duel to some of the best music composed for the franchise before he gets killed by writers fiat. He's unfortunately undeveloped, but pretty solid for a one shot villain.
Kylo as a character is going to stick around for the next movie, probably for the whole trilogy. He could turn into a great character, but as of right now, judging solely from TFA, he's not really any better than Maul. He starts strong with his catching a bolt out of the air trick, but as he gets his character dev (something maul never had), he doesn't manage to keep up appearances, nor is his final showing in the end battles any better than what Maul had.
BudokaiMR2
Member
There is a LOT more to a good villian than their combat prowess.
DarkLordMalik
Member
Thank you for this comment. This is basically what I wanted to say.
QuantumZebra
Member
I'm to the point where I'm probably going to avoid Star Wars threads in the future.
The fact that there are people in this world that would put the prequels anywhere near TFA or the OT in ranking makes me physically ill.
Even the best of them, ROTS, was absolutely awful. Just hamfisted dialogue and garbage exposition everywhere. No character development at all. No emotional weight. Just total trash.
I can't even process someone thinking Maul is > Kylo. Maul isn't even a character unless you count TCW.
FTFY
That's great and all, but if I wanted a "Tourist's Guide to The Galaxy" I'd watch it.
People want movies that feel like "Star Wars" - hence why TFA is sitting pretty in critical reviews and made more money than god.
It is absolutely a superior film on all fronts, and its not even close, to the entire PT.
For all the shit the prequels get, at least they tried to expand on the lore and the universe of SW. Compared to TFA, which rehashes too many elements of the OT, especially ANH. We get new, otherworldly environments like Coruscant, Kamino, Mustafar, whereas the environments in TFA didn't wow me at all (another desert planet? ho hum). I hope Episode VIII becomes its own film and doesn't rely so much on OT nostalgia like TFA.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
These movies will at some point always boil down to a fight between force sensitives, and Maul is certainly more threatening in terms of what he accomplishes in the film. That's a big part of what the villains do in these movies. He looks cooler, but mostly he just doesn't fuck anything up especially bad. He's not a "10/10 greatest character ever", he's underdeveloped as a character in a story but has redeeming features in other areas.
Kylo is undoubtedly a deeper character, as in, he actually gets lines that do things other than move the plot forward or provide vague foreshadowing. But his characterizations, while hopefully sewing the seeds for the future films, also make him seem weaker, indecisive, and immature. These are traits that can blossom into a rich character (who is probably going to turn good at some stage we all pretty much suspect), but which damage his ability to be an intimidating villain. That he also loses the end fight means that he goes out on a bit of a low note for someone they want to return and act as a foil for the character in future movies. It's not going to be "oh shit Kylo Ren! How are they going to beat him?!" it's going to be "Hmm well he went off to train but they beat him once and she got a lot of training too, so it's anyone's game". He did kill a beloved franchise character, but not in a way that makes him seem powerful or threatening, since a) he wasn't a jedi, b) he wasn't even fighting Kylo and c) Ford has been desperate for someone to kill him off in the series for years now.
TDLink
Member
I know some people don't give it the time of day because "lol cartoons"/"it's made for kids"/"it's not one of the movies", but the Darth Maul stuff in The Clone Wars series is pretty damn great. The entire arc both for him and Obi-Wan ends up being fantastically done. And I was initially apprehensive when I heard they were bringing him back for the show.
DarkLordMalik
Member
You seem to adore the critics but forget that aside from TPM, AOTC has a 65%Tomato rating and Revenge of the Sith has even better 79% Fresh Tomato rating. It is pretty clear that the critics enjoyed the prequels for what they were and this is evident from the ratings.
Secondly if you want to talk about Box Office to prove your point, then you are conveniently forgetting The Phantom Menance box office, which made more than $1 billion worldwide back in 1999. This is basically the same record as TFA made with its $2 billion in 2015.
If you adjust the gross of TPM to today's standard, you get $785 million just from domestic gross. Does this mean the audience loved the movie back then and saw it many times just like TFA?
Even the other prequels aren't a boxoffice disaster by any means. AotC made $650 million and RotS made around $849 million worldwide. These numbers were huge for their respective year as well.
I think you just have too much of a hate for the prequels which is why you can't stand the thought of someone liking them over the latest movie.
Interesting. I will definitely try to check it out.
QuantumZebra
Member
I'm totally ok with it - opinions and all - I just can't vent enough about how infuriating the prequels are.
In the other Star Wars thread there was a guy who liked "Divergent" more than "Blade Runner" - I liken people who like the prequels over TFA as being in the same line of moviegoing thought as that guy.
"The Clone Wars" were 1000x better than the PT, and told the story that the PT tried and failed to tell miserably.
This ^
And this ^
The prequels had some good ideas that were executed in such a ham fisted way, it's no surprise that they get a lot of criticism from fans. What I cannot stand about them are the inconsistencies with the original trilogy - excuses are made for them but at the end of the day I cannot make the world of the original trilogy reconcile with what was presented in the prequels.
The Force Awakens did indeed stay too close to the original three films (in fact, it felt like a compression of all three films into one). How much that irritates you depends on your perspective. However, for me, I got a film that was in keeping with the world we originally saw and the world I was originally attached to. I got a film with some simple characters that clearly have a lot of room to grow. I got a film that felt like a continuation of something I love - and they have two more films to veer the story into unexpected territory.
Of course, the other fault with TFA is that it simply needed further rewrites and more time in the oven to iron out the kinks - Maz, Phasma and a few other bits and pieces. But I can forgive that and accept it for what it is.
Ranking:
Empire > A New Hope = The Force Awakens >> Return Of The Jedi >>>> The Phantom Menace = Revenge Of The Sith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attack Of The Clones
The Force Awakens did indeed stay too close to the original three films (in fact, it felt like a compression of all three films into one). How much that irritates you depends on your perspective. However, for me, I got a film that was in keeping with the world we originally saw and the world I was originally attached to. I got a film with some simple characters that clearly have a lot of room to grow. I got a film that felt like a continuation of something I love - and they have two more films to veer the story into unexpected territory.
Of course, the other fault with TFA is that it simply needed further rewrites and more time in the oven to iron out the kinks - Maz, Phasma and a few other bits and pieces. But I can forgive that and accept it for what it is.
Ranking:
Empire > A New Hope = The Force Awakens >> Return Of The Jedi >>>> The Phantom Menace = Revenge Of The Sith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attack Of The Clones
Forerunner
Member
TCW is honestly some of the best stuff to come from the Star Wars universe.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
i think labeling him as a non-rich character in part because he's immature, brash, etc, isn't fair. you can be be well-written and have depth while also being an annoying brat. personally, i also wouldn't say he went out on a low note just because he lost to rey. he actually went out like a badass to me, taking a bowcaster shot to the stomach and pumping himself up by pounding on the wound to fight.
at the end of the day, darth maul = elite sith assassin cartwheel ninja, kylo ren = aspiring immature whiny sith. but only one actually talked ;p
Glad to see the OP's thoughts. I pretty much agree on all fronts.
Once I got over the nostalgia/aesthetic of the OT, I really came around to love the PT. In fact, RotS is my favorite. I'm disappointed with the overuse of CG, like the backgrounds, and the acting - but everything else is solid. The world-building is amazing!
The commentaries of the PT made me realize the overuse of CG was less about pulling off the look and more about taking advantage of that technique to make a film. So from a film making perspective I appreciate it. Other use of SFX can also look fake, but we've gone decades with it and just accept it.
TFA is my least favorite, but it is fantastic film making. To be picky, some scenes were shot out of focus for some reason, like when Leia and Han is hugging, his neck is the only thing in focus.
The characters in TFA are pretty cool, but they are relying heavily on sequels to tell the arcs so I feel the single film didn't so as much as the other movies. Kylo seems like a cool character, but not necessarily a cool villain.
So far TFA is a continuation of the Skywalker family instead of the Skywalker legacy, so I hope these new creators come around and plan to make these Episodes as crucial and connected as how the chosen one brings balance to the force through 6 Episodes.
Once I got over the nostalgia/aesthetic of the OT, I really came around to love the PT. In fact, RotS is my favorite. I'm disappointed with the overuse of CG, like the backgrounds, and the acting - but everything else is solid. The world-building is amazing!
The commentaries of the PT made me realize the overuse of CG was less about pulling off the look and more about taking advantage of that technique to make a film. So from a film making perspective I appreciate it. Other use of SFX can also look fake, but we've gone decades with it and just accept it.
TFA is my least favorite, but it is fantastic film making. To be picky, some scenes were shot out of focus for some reason, like when Leia and Han is hugging, his neck is the only thing in focus.
The characters in TFA are pretty cool, but they are relying heavily on sequels to tell the arcs so I feel the single film didn't so as much as the other movies. Kylo seems like a cool character, but not necessarily a cool villain.
So far TFA is a continuation of the Skywalker family instead of the Skywalker legacy, so I hope these new creators come around and plan to make these Episodes as crucial and connected as how the chosen one brings balance to the force through 6 Episodes.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Star Wars thread. Guess I'll just give my usual thoughts.
Empire>ANH=TFA>ROTJ
Prequels are utter garbage with not a single redeeming factor between them.
Empire>ANH=TFA>ROTJ
Prequels are utter garbage with not a single redeeming factor between them.
QuantumZebra
Member
People who like Maul over Kylo just like style over substance, is all.
I mean that is what it comes down to with the movies as well.
The PT was flashy, shallow, and had a bunch of choreographed lightsaber ninja fights. It was exactly what George Lucas thought kids would want (and people with short attention spans).
He said himself that Star Wars was for kids.
The reason that TFA feels much more like the originals is because it recaptures that sense of adventure and "space opera" that the PT could never understand.
I definitely think if Lucas quit huffing his own farts for 5 minutes and hired a decent director, then the PT would've been great. Instead we're left with flashy movies with the depth of a puddle and the dialogue of a bad made-for-TV movie.
Maul was an action figure, a video game boss at best.
Kylo was a real character with a real motivation. Him worshipping vader is meta as fuck. He wants to be like vader. And the audience wants him to be like vader. But he is not. He is a whiney kid throwing tantrums. Not a great villain yet but we have to see how he develops.
Maul's entire characterization was his black attire and red light saber. Therefore evil.
This is so bizarre to read. TPM did everything you're complaining TFA did.
Killer Queen
Banned
TESB
ANH
TFA
ROTJ
ROTS
AOTC
TPM
For me
ANH
TFA
ROTJ
ROTS
AOTC
TPM
For me
JimJamJones
Member
1. Empire
2. Star Wars
3. Jedi
4. TFA
5. ROTS
6. TPM
7. Christmas Special
8. Clone Wars (the movie, not the show)
9. Caravan of Courage
10. AOTC
2. Star Wars
3. Jedi
4. TFA
5. ROTS
6. TPM
7. Christmas Special
8. Clone Wars (the movie, not the show)
9. Caravan of Courage
10. AOTC
The hardest thing for me to reconcile was the whole nature of the Clone Wars. I mean, we could have got a really cool story where they actually make sense and are used to drive Anakin's sense of justice and righteousness because of his harsh upbringing on a hostile world as a piece of property. Instead, the clones just were randomly found on a random planet and then randomly used apparently without any thought or investigation into their origins whatsoever - especially when the clone template is in league with the villains of the story! This could have been used as the very reason for why droids appear mistrusted in the outer rim, too.
And the Jedi should have been a loosely connected monastic order of mystics with a perhaps a small council on the capitol. They should have been unwillingly drawn into a war. They should have been broken in the second movie, to be honest - hard divides along different moral lines causing people to fall prey to the nature of the dark side. With conflict on both sides, you could more easily see why Anakin would chose to become Darth Vader and why he felt justified in destroying the Jedi. Without something like this, there is no reason for the Jedi being so idiotic, no real reason for Anakin to become Vader.
And don't even get me started on the prophecy nonsense, eugh.
And the Jedi should have been a loosely connected monastic order of mystics with a perhaps a small council on the capitol. They should have been unwillingly drawn into a war. They should have been broken in the second movie, to be honest - hard divides along different moral lines causing people to fall prey to the nature of the dark side. With conflict on both sides, you could more easily see why Anakin would chose to become Darth Vader and why he felt justified in destroying the Jedi. Without something like this, there is no reason for the Jedi being so idiotic, no real reason for Anakin to become Vader.
And don't even get me started on the prophecy nonsense, eugh.
TDLink
Member
I think his point is that even though TPM had the desert planet again, it also had new locales like Naboo (both the city and underwater Gungan land) and Coruscant. As well as new aliens and a view of the universe at large (via the capitol, jedi council, and senate. I tend to agree that whatever flaws you want to say TPM had, it did do these world expanding things and TFA didn't really.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Wait! They do have a redeeming factor. The Plinkett reviews are some of the most rewatchable bits of media ever. Anytime I'm on a Star Wars kick and think I should maybe check out the sequels I just watch his reviews instead, get my fix, and get to laugh instead of being mad.
QuantumZebra
Member
I'm so glad they didn't try that in TFA.
People tend to forget that the OT didn't exactly do much world building either - we saw 2-3 planets per film roughly (Yavin and Tatooine in Ep. 4, Hoth, Dagobah, Bespin in Ep. 5, Endor, Tatooine, Dagobah in Ep. 6) - and they barely named the planets/made a big deal about going there.
TFA had more locales and variety than the OT. So it is quite in line with Star Wars. The PT is where it jumped the shark and was like "OMG LOOK ITS SHINY AND HERES ALLTHE PLANETS FROM THE EU AND OMGOMGOMG"
BudokaiMR2
Member
Maul was definitely intimidating but I do not think I would call him a solid villain. He was serviceable at best and outside of showing up at the very end is actually pretty damn useless and adds very little to the movie outside of looking intimidating.
Kylo at least has motivations and a backstory. Maul was always supposed to be a one-shot throwaway character though, so it's hard to take issue with the lack of development.
I also don't really feel like Kylo went out on a low note. I felt the final fights in TFA were great and I thought he still came off as formidable considering the mental and physical state he was in at the time. It helps that I really liked the choreography and direction in the final fight scene.
Upon rewatches the Maul fight doesn't even hold up that well in my opinion. It suffers from the same thing most fights in the prequels do, useless and over-exaggerated movements. It's still the best fight out of the prequel trilogy, but it feels incredibly choreographed in a very transparent way. There are a few moments where he is attacking one person and the other one is just striking a silly pose on the other side of him. Still a good fight overall, but it never feels as natural or visceral as the final fight scene in TFA.
This is a very clear example of what I mean:
Maul has dedicated himself to kicking Obi-Wan off the platform, and not only has his back to Qui Gon but is off balance. What does Qui Gon do? Move his saber away from Maul and strike a pose as the scene cuts to Obi-Wan falling. They get away with a bunch of shit like this because of the distance shots, but you see this repeated throughout the fight if you look closely.
Here is the clip if you want to see it in motion.
It's not even like Qui-Gon is blocked and pushed back by Maul's saber. He taps his saber and then strikes a pose, allowing Maul to focus on kicking Obi-Wan.
This is something I keep hearing - the fact that he's not a 'powerful' (as in: physical strength) character somehow means that he doesn't have a strong character. All the character traits presented in TFA make him a more compelling and interesting character than any of the villains in the prequels, and, now that I think about it, the OT as well. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a villain who's just big, bad and evil and who enjoys kicking ass, but it's also kind of boring. None of the villains in the prequels made an impression on me, and all the fights in the prequels just felt like visual noise without much meaning behind them to me. By making Kylo a more vulnerable character (at this first chapter of his story), the final fight between him and Rey, and the final moments between him and Han (and also the scenes with HoloSnoke and the other imperials throughout the movie) - all those scenes are much more interesting now. He isn't just a videogame boss - he's an actual character in his own right, that the viewer can sympathize with (note: that isn't the same as agreeing with him, of course). Him being, as you describe it, weaker, indecisive and insecure are exactly what make him a great villain.
That's something that was present in the OT as well, and all the lightsaber fights represented the state of the characters at that moment in time. And yes, you can make the point that those fights haven't aged that well (although I still enjoy them), but the intention and philosophy behind them is still very strong, and that carries through in TFA. In the prequels, none of the fights have any weight to them. Lightsabers get pulled out for anything, robots and lasers seem meaningless, and people only get hurt when it's time for their carefully choreographed dance scene to end.
The prequels were a pure videogame power fantasy. And there's nothing wrong with enjoying that - I enjoy dumb action in other movies as well. But for Star Wars, I vastly prefer the OT/TFA approach.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
What you're saying isn't incompatible with what I'm saying. I've made it quite clear that Kylo could turn into something great, and that this comparison is purely taking TFA in isolation. It's also not the case that any characterization instantly makes someone good or innately superior to someone without significant characterization. The Terminator is one of the most iconic villains of all time with minimal dialogue and no character traits beyond "is a robot, wants to kill Sarah Connor" in the first of those films. Maul is nowhere near that level, don't get me wrong, but Maul IS an effective villain in the sense that he is an intimidating presence in the film and a significant threat to the protagonists. He's basic, but aesthetically interesting and gets shit done, so like a 6 or 7 / 10. Kylo is in roughly the same league, but for different reasons.
I didn't know there was so much Maul hate in the world. The worst thing about him is how Lucas wasted his potential by killing him off in TPM. Other than that he was powerful, a major threat, and because so little was known of him and his capabilities it made him terrifying. I thought he was one of the better and more memorable things to come out of the prequel trilogy. So much so that when I went back to rewatch all 6 before TFA, I was surprised when he died so early in the PT.
Yeah, there should have been more of him, but there was nothing horribly wrong with what was there.
Yeah, there should have been more of him, but there was nothing horribly wrong with what was there.
old manatee
Banned
I'm not a fan of the gimmicky light sabers they keep introducing.
TDLink
Member
I agree that TFA was more taking cues from the OT and that TPM/the prequels were much more inspired by the EU. But some people do like that EU expansion and Star Wars feeling like a big universe while simultaneously enjoying the OT. The prequels really do feel almost like a different franchise with the aliens and alien worlds everywhere. The OT and TFA feel like somewhat realistic locales that are filled predominantly with humans...unless you go into a Cantina or are in the streets of a desert town.
I can see arguments for both sides. Personally I think sticking with mostly humans was a limitation of the OT at the time rather than something Lucas actively wanted, which is why ROTJ introduces more aliens in more active plot roles. Especially after the prequels and Clone Wars, it feels a bit weird to go back to the old style in TFA.
Again, to you and everyone else complaining about Maul getting shafted (literally)...watch The Clone Wars. They completely salvaged an otherwise one note character and made him great.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Maul gelled more for me in his brief appearance than the other PT villains did, who were horribly mishandled imo. Darth Saruman had the credentials to pull it off, great actor and he schools the good guys. He also in theory could have had interesting character motivations, but we never really get to see any of that. He puts up a front of having legitimate grievances with the Republic, but then ultimately he's just kinda evil because he's a sith and evil is part of the job description. He failed partly for aesthetic reasons, his fight choreography was substantially less impressive than Maul's, and visually he is probably the weakest out of all the main Sith villains. Don't even get me started on what imbeciles the trade federation doofuses and
It's not the case that I'm saying Kylo is a poor character because he's not the best fighter in the universe. But I am saying that his role as foil and villain is partially damaged by the relatively low power disparity between him and the new trilogy protagonists. Vader gets eclipsed by the good guys in Ep 6 and only through Luke giving in momentarily to his passions. Saruman humiliated the duo in his first appearance, and is defeated in the second, the film in which the Emperor wins and exterminates the Jedi Order bar a few survivors. Kylo was defeated in hand to hand combat in his first appearance. I think we could both agree that the villain feeling like they are a significant threat is something that is a positive trait for a villain to have especially in a classic space opera. In terms of both structuring the power growth arc for the protagonists, and in terms of establishing the villain's credentials before he reappears in the subsequent films, that's not a particularly optimal choice, imo.
Well there's no accounting for taste. I thought he was an "ok villain".
I need to do this. I've heard this recommendation countless times and never heard anyone say a bad thing about TCW. But I keep not doing it. I'll start it today.
TDLink
Member
All I'll recommend is follow the guide that is out there. Season 1 was very much designed for and aimed at children. There are some decent episodes in there but not many. But in later seasons the show is definitely targeted at adults as well/all fans of star wars and has very compelling plotlines and character work.
It really is over choreographed shit, the music is the only good part of it.
I love the ending where Obi Wan gets trapped behind the laser wall things and has to watch Qui Gon get killed, although it shows earlier in the film they have the ability to "force" run at silly speeds, why doesn't he bother using it there?
BudokaiMR2
Member
You can't go wrong with The Clone Wars. It can be a little inconsistent in my opinion, but it is a very good series. Does a much better job with the characters on basically every level, and there are some really imaginative fight scenes. I have no idea what episode it is but there is at least one really amazing zero-g fight that did some cool stuff.
Don't get me wrong, I can see your points. Just a matter of preference I guess.
SolicitorPirate
Member
I initially thought Kylo's issues in TFA were presented in a heavy handed manner, but given how many people like the OP can completely miss the point of that character, I guess they weren't heavy handed enough.
qui-obi vs maul + anakin vs Obi are great brah.
Only good duel in the OT is the ROTJ end duel.
QuantumZebra
Member
Watch everything involved with Star Wars (The Clone Wars, Rebels, etc...)
Then wait about 3 months
Then watch the prequels expecting nothing and even then expect to be disappointed
Not sure what you're saying here?
No there is no character development in the prequels... like none, at all
And no there aren't any cringe scenes in TFA - at least none that I or anyone I knew mentioned or saw
If that's your point then cool
I guess it's good if you want style over substance.
I felt nothing watching the fight at the end of ROTS, especially as I already knew the outcome of the fight.
QuantumZebra
Member
I guess it's good if you want style over substance.
I felt nothing watching the fight at the end of ROTS, especially as I already knew the outcome of the fight.
"YOU UNDERESTIMATE MY POWER"
*does 1080 kickflip into a lightsaber*
...
ugh
I think the majority of my burning hatred for the prequels is them completely butchering Anakin. In fact that is exactly why.
His character (and actor) in all 3 films is abrasive and annoying at best. His dialogue and behavior is god-awful shit-tier.
His "fall" is a complete joke. Like you said, it's just "Well shit I just killed some people and I'm pals with this Sith guy, guess I'll kill some kids and be evil now".
BFIB
Member
I know some make the argument that the reason the fights in the Prequels are so flashy is because its the Jedi and Sith at their peak, in full training.
But, look at the Anakin/Obi Wan fight. They are aiming to hit each others lightsabers, not hit each other. That fall should have meant so much more, but it really came off as "Well, I guess I'll go darkside since I just betrayed the Jedi Order......."
But, look at the Anakin/Obi Wan fight. They are aiming to hit each others lightsabers, not hit each other. That fall should have meant so much more, but it really came off as "Well, I guess I'll go darkside since I just betrayed the Jedi Order......."
Anyone watch Graham Norton recently with Ewan McGregor on it?
Lost all respect I had for the dude, watching the making of the prequels he's claiming to be a huge Star Wars fanboy, yet he can hardly recall what he did for TFA and has trouble recalling character names. What a fucking sham.
Lost all respect I had for the dude, watching the making of the prequels he's claiming to be a huge Star Wars fanboy, yet he can hardly recall what he did for TFA and has trouble recalling character names. What a fucking sham.
Dash_Riprock
Member
I can't believe Lucas didn't realize what gold he'd struck with Maul. He's probably still kicking himself over not making him the main villain of the PT.
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