Fess
Member
Eh, they’ll be behind until they’re ahead… Series consoles are advancing fast, the last thing Sony can do this gen is sitting on their laurels thinking everything is fine, they need to adapt and be aggressive.
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Microsoft Says Sony Will Benefit From Launching First-Party Games on PS Plus
- Thread starter Airbus Jr
- Start date
RyanEvans21
Member
Because Xbox produce more! if you go to Gamestop,Bestbuy or target you can buy series x but not PS5.
Banjo64
cumsessed
£70 Sony release price day one, Nintendo day one release price is between £35-£40 in the UK.
SenkiDala
Member
When you see how the quality standards are low now with the MS exclusives, it is not something I'd like to see happen.
Subscriptions models are still not profitables, in terms of benefits, so yes by producing a 10M$ game you take less risks than 100/200/300M$ ones.
That's how we got nothing mind blowing or even acceptable first party MS game, outside of Forza Horizon (good little games even though they're all the same), since 2010.
Subscriptions models are still not profitables, in terms of benefits, so yes by producing a 10M$ game you take less risks than 100/200/300M$ ones.
That's how we got nothing mind blowing or even acceptable first party MS game, outside of Forza Horizon (good little games even though they're all the same), since 2010.
Neofire
Member
How about MS worry about Xbox lol. MS is a disruptor when they can't take over an industry by brute force like they have the OS space then they undermine the competition.
Yeah what Sony has been going for decades has worked and still is. They need to focus on meeting ps5 demand not listening MS try to sabotage them.
Yeah what Sony has been going for decades has worked and still is. They need to focus on meeting ps5 demand not listening MS try to sabotage them.
K2D
Banned
vivftp
Member
Why in the world are you using PS5 only games that were launched in the first several months of the PS5 gen and comparing it to PS4 game sales that had a far larger userbase to sell to? Sales took a massive drop last quarter relative to last year because there were several first party releases in that quarter last year and only 1 this year. It's odd that you'd list so many possible causes and not consider the most obvious which is a smaller PS5 userbase and the timing of game launches. And that's not evening factoring in higher sales last year due to folks being on lockdown.
Negotiator101
Member
Quite right they don't need your biased advice
Dial back the hypocritical console war rhetoric “SDF” and grow up warriors
damn , microsoft is really concerned for sony
why?
Ahhh yes, after 4 generations of outselling Xbox the time is nigh for Playstation to take their advice
MS: Sony, join us in paradise….
The best part about this thread are the fanboys on damage control who didn't take a minute to read the OP.
Microsoft is saying this in their response to Sony telling Brazilian authorities that, basically, they cannot compete with Game Pass and Game Pass has like 70% of the marketshare. How it would take so many years and money to come close to rivaling Game Pass, etc., despite themselves calling PS+ a rival.
This is all the from the same documents that have already posted where Microsoft lawyers are spit-roasting Sony's arguments; there's nothing new here except a media outlet pointing out this specific section.
Basically, Microsoft is saying that Sony can make PS+ more attractive by adding day one titles, and it could rival Game Pass more if done so. Pretty much calling Sony's bluff by saying they rely on "buy-to-play" as their strategy while Microsoft is adopting another successful method, and Sony is just upset that they're marketshare is being threatened and they have to compete. Microsoft literally uses the words "afraid" and "incoherant" plus many more hilarious words in these documents to call out Sony, lmao.
But queue the Sony Defense Force to blindly jump in. It must suck to always be backfired upon.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
KZSF sold 2.1 million in 6 weeks. Infamous sold 1 million in 9 days. DriveClub, a flop that killed the studio, sold 2 million in 8 months. All came out in the first year on a similar size userbase. All outsold the three games I listed above.
tmlDan
Member
True, i cant believe it only sold 10 million - pretty bad for a niche, ultra gory, dark game. /s
Kokoloko85
Member
Yes, Sony should listen to MS who doesn’t make as much in the games industry and doesn’t mention what their costs and profits are….
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
If MS mean smaller, more indie/AA-style games that are either 1P or using 1P IP licensed with 3P devs who are contracted to develop the games...then maybe. I've suggested they maybe take that approach to do smaller stuff like a new UmJammer/Parappa, Tomba!, Jumping Flash (maybe for PSVR2), etc. for PS+ alongside digital copies, and maybe limited physical print runs a bit later that could be collector's items.
But if they mean the $100 million - $200 million, big marquee AAA 1P releases? No, it financially just doesn't make sense. MS doesn't really make any 1P games of that scale or with those types of budgets so in their use-case they can maybe make it work, but even there it's not like GamePass revenue is particularly large, not what you'd expect with that number of subscribers (otherwise I think they'd actually disclose GP revenue figures with shareholders more often).
PS+ does about $2.5 billion a year but for Sony to justify putting their heavy-hitter 1P AAA games like GOW Ragnarok, HFW, Spiderman 2 etc. into such a service, it'd need to be able to generate at least another $1.5 billion - $2 billion a year on top of what it currently does, because when they make that type of move, there WILL be a noticeable drop in up-front software sales of those games. We've seen it happen with MS's own 1P titles, which on the console side have seen further reduction of sales due to PC Day-and-Date policy.
But ultimately, none of that really phases Microsoft because the vast majority of their real revenue and profits come from Azure, Office, and Windows. That's vastly different from Sony's reality, hence why they have to take a much different approach. This shouldn't need to be said yet it bears repeating
TLOU Part 2 was a victim of agenda-driven slander from certain types of individuals along console-warring and political lines, who had a hunger to try damaging the perception of the game before it even released. It may have also as a game made some questionable choices story-wise (namely with the handling of Joel's death, at least the way the game went about it), but that was taken and weaponized by bad-faith leakers, gamers and content creators to spin a narrative of an impression before the game even released.
Meanwhile, Spiderman & Mile Morales have sold 33 million copies and continue to move units. I think using TLOU2 as your only point to assert your claim is ridiculous.
But if they mean the $100 million - $200 million, big marquee AAA 1P releases? No, it financially just doesn't make sense. MS doesn't really make any 1P games of that scale or with those types of budgets so in their use-case they can maybe make it work, but even there it's not like GamePass revenue is particularly large, not what you'd expect with that number of subscribers (otherwise I think they'd actually disclose GP revenue figures with shareholders more often).
PS+ does about $2.5 billion a year but for Sony to justify putting their heavy-hitter 1P AAA games like GOW Ragnarok, HFW, Spiderman 2 etc. into such a service, it'd need to be able to generate at least another $1.5 billion - $2 billion a year on top of what it currently does, because when they make that type of move, there WILL be a noticeable drop in up-front software sales of those games. We've seen it happen with MS's own 1P titles, which on the console side have seen further reduction of sales due to PC Day-and-Date policy.
But ultimately, none of that really phases Microsoft because the vast majority of their real revenue and profits come from Azure, Office, and Windows. That's vastly different from Sony's reality, hence why they have to take a much different approach. This shouldn't need to be said yet it bears repeating
TLOU Part 2 was a victim of agenda-driven slander from certain types of individuals along console-warring and political lines, who had a hunger to try damaging the perception of the game before it even released. It may have also as a game made some questionable choices story-wise (namely with the handling of Joel's death, at least the way the game went about it), but that was taken and weaponized by bad-faith leakers, gamers and content creators to spin a narrative of an impression before the game even released.
Meanwhile, Spiderman & Mile Morales have sold 33 million copies and continue to move units. I think using TLOU2 as your only point to assert your claim is ridiculous.
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StealthGoblin
Banned
Sony don’t care as long as they have a huge chunk of people who will be using PS+. As long as they get their 30% from Fortnite, COD, Genshin, FFXIV etc and eventually 100% from their own AAA GAAS games, they can have their cake and eat it.
MatrixReloaded101
Member
It’s because some feel the subscription model will lower the quality of the games because the games will make less money especially single player games.
It would be amazing to get a game like God of War R day one in PS Plus Premium but that will significantly lower the money made from that game which will impact the budget for the next games.
Microsoft can get away with the sub model because they have the money to burn until the service turns in more profit. It’s also there only competitive advantage at the moment.
Forza Horizon 5 was #4 in November 2021 NPD, behind only COD Vanguard, Battlefield 2042 and Pokemon. Best ever launch month sales for any Forza/Forza Horizon game and remained in the top 5 Steam charts for weeks post launch. Over a million purchases of the Ultimate edition alone, pre-launch.
Halo Infinite was #2 in December NPD (Behind COD), #1 on Xbox and #1 on Steam for December 2021.
Despite Gamepass, their AAA games are still quite successful at retail.
Source?
Got it for £35.
Deerock71
Member
phil_t98
#SonyToo
wvweybody saying Sony will loose money, most on here having been saying they would never sub to a game service like gamepads if it were to come on Playstation. so according to most on here they would still buy the game anyway? also a hell of a lot of people wait till the game goes cheaper on the second hand market which Sony has no slice of but with an attractive game service it would be less appealing to buy second hand when you can sub and get the game. in theory Sony could make way more more than they do.
Fess
Member
Well yeah that just highlight yet another problem Sony still haven’t been able to fix. In my country you have to pay 50% more for a PS5 than a Series X, and Series S is like a third of a PS5. It’s absurd.
Banjo64
cumsessed
Absolute nonsense
Do you think the Xbox division themselves have taken the hit while Game Pass has been in the growth stage, or do you think MS did?
Do you think the Xbox division themselves were profitable enough to fund the Activision/Bethesda acquisitions, or did MS fund them?
MS is trying to drag Sony in to a fight they can’t win. Once Sony go all in on Plus what’s to stop MS from going and spending £100b on EA and Ubisoft and taking a loss on Game Pass for the next 20 years?
vivftp
Member
And this is proof of... what exactly? After several months anyone could walk into a store and pick up a PS4 but it's still a crapshoot to get a PS5, despite only being a couple million units behind the PS4 when launch aligned. The difference there is you're comparing a console where anyone and everyone could freely pick one up if there was content that interested them, but with the PS5 even if someone is interested in a game they have to try and get a PS5 first. So if Billy wanted to play Driveclub when it launched they could just go grab a PS4 and they were good to go. If Susan wanted to play R&C Rift Apart then they better hope they were able to find a PS5 somewhere. These are different circumstances and can not be directly compared.
This will ease over the rest of this FY and next FY given Sony's stated projections. They're still aiming to ship ~15 million more PS5's this FY and if they are aiming to surpass the PS4 sales curve next FY then they'll need to ship over 23 million PS5's. Coincidentally that'll also be when they'll be dropping their next wave of massive exclusives like Spider-Man 2 and Final Fantasy 16 so there will be a much more healthy userbase to potentially pick up games.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Halo was #2 and COD launched in November. Halo could barely hold up in the charts worldwide. It wasn't even putting up good sales numbers.
So no, Halo was not putting up good numbers in retail at all.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Don't believe anyone when they say that bs lol.
Sony's getting £140 for their FP games from me this year. That drops to £20 the moment day one becomes a thing
I have a hard time believing i'm some anomoly that would choose to pay less instead of more if given the option
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
PS5 was outselling the PS4 until august of last year. People who really wanted to play Ratchet, Demon Souls and Returnal wouldve been able to secure one.
Regardless, i listed FOUR reasons why the games arent selling well. You want to dismiss the fact that they are too expensive at $70 or because they went on a subscription service in a year or because they simply arent good enough, be my guest.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
It's not a defense; it's a statement of reality. One company's the equivalent of several mansions, the other's the equivalent of a really nice middle-class suburban home. There are simply ways of spending the owner of the former can afford that the latter just cannot, that's how it works.
The galvanizing towards Sony's potential net profits by putting games like GOW Ragnarok in PS+ Day 1 is simply not worth the chance to do IMO. A while back I suggested an idea that maybe Sony could do a payment subscription plan on a per-game basis; you see a game you like on the store and instead of paying $70 upfront, if you have a PS+ sub, you break it up into installments over the period of a year, maybe with some slight interest on top of that. I don't know the specifics of how they could implement that, but it's arguably a much more feasible method than throwing the game on the service altogether and calling it a day.
Yes, it'd be cool for a lot of US if we could play GOW Ragnarok on PS+ Day 1, but we have to understand that different companies have different ways of doing their business and won't do things that risk them losing a lot more money than they'd make. MS can probably afford putting a game like Starfield in GamePass Day 1 because it has a cheaper budget than GOW Ragnarok. MS also don't do as much advertising for their games as Sony does (since they have now been tying most of their advertising into GamePass). But the biggest reason, is because no matter the potential loss OR profit from Starfield if they put it in GamePass or not, MS as a company consider that pocket change compared to the vast amount of money they make off their REAL business ventures of Azure cloud, Windows, and Microsoft Office.
That's why they can do that with Starfield, and why Sony can't with GOW Ragnarok. Some of you guys seem to think Sony and Microsoft are very similar corporations but their history and vested market interests (as far as companies on the whole) are vastly different. Sony's model for gaming has more in common with Nintendo than Microsoft, even if Sony are less dependent on games revenue than Nintendo are. So for people saying Sony should just "copy Microsoft" and throw all their big games into a service Day 1, or port all their games to PC Day 1, just keep that in mind because if it's not something that sounds feasible for Nintendo, it's not THAT much more feasible for Sony.
Markio128
Gold Member
What would suck is to care that muchThe best part about this thread are the fanboys on damage control who didn't take a minute to read the OP.
Microsoft is saying this in their response to Sony telling Brazilian authorities that, basically, they cannot compete with Game Pass and Game Pass has like 70% of the marketshare. How it would take so many years and money to come close to rivaling Game Pass, etc., despite themselves calling PS+ a rival.
This is all the from the same documents that have already posted where Microsoft lawyers are spit-roasting Sony's arguments; there's nothing new here except a media outlet pointing out this specific section.
Basically, Microsoft is saying that Sony can make PS+ more attractive by adding day one titles, and it could rival Game Pass more if done so. Pretty much calling Sony's bluff by saying they rely on "buy-to-play" as their strategy while Microsoft is adopting another successful method, and Sony is just upset that they're marketshare is being threatened and they have to compete. Microsoft literally uses the words "afraid" and "incoherant" plus many more hilarious words in these documents to call out Sony, lmao.
But queue the Sony Defense Force to blindly jump in. It must suck to always be backfired upon.
Call of Duty is multiplatform and is THE Holiday game. #2 in December and #1 on Steam is damn good, considering the game is on Gamepass and the MP - which many prefer to play - was F2P.
Seems like you're clinging to charts from markets where there's much stronger Gamepass uptake to weave your narrative.
Rivet
Member
This. Only in the video games industry does the last place competitor give advice to the leader.
vivftp
Member
I'm sorry, did you just argue that anyone who wanted to play a certain game would've been able to secure a PS5 just like that? Buddy, I know you're smarter than that and you know how hard it's been for EVERYONE to secure a PS5 since launch. It's only now getting a bit easier since they've been flooding the market with consoles the last month or so, and it'll continue to get easier as I noted, but for the time period you were referencing it was sheer luck and a lot of effort trying to get a PS5.
As for your other reasons, those don't concern me, I addressed the obvious omission from your argument.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And nobody cries really about their never dropping in price, $60 games. Ironic, eh!
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
No one would. There is a reason why Forza and Halo both had 20 million users within weeks and were below freaking Mortal Kombat 11 in the top 20 charts last year. A game that released in 2019. 2021 was a pretty trash year for game sales anyway. Vanguard topped with the series low in sales at around 4 million. MLB the Show which sells 1 million max every year landed in the top 10 despite MS not sharing digital sales numbers from the Xbox store. A flop like Back 4 Blood ended up above both Forza and Halo.
Whether or not, MS's gamepass approach is profitable is irrelevant when we are solely discussing if the retail or digital sales suffer for games on gamepass. It clearly does and this is the proof. Sony already has 46 million PS+ users. Almost 2x as many as gamepass users. Why they hell would they risk their games dropping out of top 20 for a few $10 a month subs?
Kenneth Haight
Gold Member
This is like one of your really rich mates trying to get you to invest in some mad pyramid scheme that is definitely not profitable
One day MS will show us the numbers around gamepass and how much money it makes. Until then I think Sony should probably continue with what they’re doing.
One day MS will show us the numbers around gamepass and how much money it makes. Until then I think Sony should probably continue with what they’re doing.
Ironically, "Sony is the dominant leader and we're in last place" is pretty much the winning argument Microsoft is using to sell the Activision deal to regulators.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Because now that the console is finally starting to become available like it did in Q1 2022, their first party sales took a massive nose dive Q1 2022. By your logic, people waiting to get their hands on the PS5 wouldve gone in and bought every single game they wanted to play. That didnt happen. They sold just 6.4 million first party games last quarter down from 10.5 million same quarter last year despite HFW and GT7 launching just a month or two before last quarter.
The first party sales simply arent there despite the console adding literally 10 million units DOUBLING from the same quarter last year. If you think all the other reasons are BS and my omission of timmy not getting a ps5 for christmas is enough to chastise me, I think there is really nothing we could agree on.
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DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Halo
NPD December - 2nd
NPD January - 18th
NPD February - Gone
You specifically mention retail and you tell me that I'm clinging to charts? LOL
Halo didn't perform well in retail, so you were wrong.
Fess
Member
Microsoft have lots of money but I doubt that other segments of the company are paying for the Xbox division, I don’t think for a second that Gamepass is burning money tbh. And Starfield likely have an insane budget.
Sony as a company also have several legs to stand on and they’re making tons of money. And the cheap tricks for PS+ Premium aren’t working anymore to my knowledge so 20+ million Premium subscribers would literally bring in hundreds of million dollars every month. And with Sony 1st party AAA games there day 1 20+ million is just the beginning.
01011001
Banned
takes a single mistake to go from the absolutely dominating force to being the looser...
see the Wii U and to a lesser degree the PS3
and it happened multiple times in the last few gens that the looser suddenly is dominating again, while the rest fall behind... see the Wii, the Switch and to a lesser degree the Xbox 360
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RyanEvans21
Member
Microsoft bought two of the biggest publishers
Sure Gamepass not burning money like netflix. 
yazenov
Gold Member
The problem is Microsoft has been dead last the past 3 generations now and has never been profitable. So id say do the opposite of Microsoft says for success.
vivftp
Member
The timing is still a factor you're not taking into consideration. The large influx of consoles didn't start occurring until July and the quarterly report you're referencing only includes numbers up until the end of June.
In Q1 2021 we saw Sony first party launch Returnal, Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart and MLB The Show. In Q1 2022 they only launched MLB The Show. I don't agree with the logic you're using to prop up your argument, but I don't think we're going to make much more progress on this discussion so we may as well just move on.
0neAnd0nly
Member
Why does/ should Sony need to listen to the third place console company?
01011001
Banned
did you call the 360 "dead last"? dude... if it wasn't for Japan it would have completely destroyed the PS3. the 360 barely sold units in the entire asian region and yet only lost by a tiny margin at the end of the gen.
that gen wasn't a full failure for any one console, but it was a relative failure for the PS3 and a relatively huge win for the 360.
Sony went from the best selling system of all time and 10x the sales of its competitors to a console that took several years and a redesign of both the console and their entire visual language (logos, colors, ads etc.) to even be considered a real competition to the 360. and both lost by a big margin to the Wii, the successor of the system that was in last place the gen before
also Microsoft sold more units of their first ever console than Nintendo did in the same generation... so I would call that a win as well, relatively speaking
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Obnoxious different colored text, but you’re right.
It is hilarious how defensive people get of Sony. Obsessive Sony Jingos are almost worst than Nintendo Apologists.
There are people that will buy a game even if it is on a Gamepass style service. Microsoft does want to see everyone succeeding. Outside of this little forum there are people that understand business and business relations.
I mean, PlayStation was funded by Sony's other business ventures. What exactly is your point? If Sony had even close to the cash MS had, you don't think they would use it to bolster the PlayStation brand? To acquire what, in their words, can never be replaced for PlayStation (CoD)? And much more, knowing how aggressive they are with moneyhatting?Absolute nonsense
Do you think the Xbox division themselves have taken the hit while Game Pass has been in the growth stage, or do you think MS did?
Do you think the Xbox division themselves were profitable enough to fund the Activision/Bethesda acquisitions, or did MS fund them?
MS is trying to drag Sony in to a fight they can’t win. Once Sony go all in on Plus what’s to stop MS from going and spending £100b on EA and Ubisoft and taking a loss on Game Pass for the next 20 years?
And don't be angry at me for clarifying the OP. Maybe go take a BAR exam, get hired by Sony and go respond to this in court. It's highly doubtful Sony will respond to these scathing remarks, and their lawyers know infinitely more than a random forum user LOLing all over his gaming chair, but you should have a go. For science.
You're letting hate cloud your judgement. Do you know what "dead last" even means?
Xbox One was dead last.
Wii U was dead last.
PlayStation Vita was dead last.
Xbox 360 closing the gen neck and neck with PS3 despite shooting themselves in the foot with RROD isn't "dead last."
Reading the OP is hard. Maybe look at my previous post for a translation, if you're actually asking in good faith.
AmuroChan
Member
Sony is not going to change strategy unless they're close to being certain that putting 1st party games on PS+ day 1 will make them more money than selling them a la carte. Unlike Microsoft, Sony has very little margin for error. PlayStation is Sony's most profitable division. They don't have an equivalent to Windows and Office divisions that make unlimited money and can subsidize any losses from the other divisions. If PlayStation loses money, Sony is in big trouble.
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Banjo64
cumsessed
The point was easy to understand, I’m not sure how you could miss the point.
Well they don’t, so what’s your point?