Owlowiscious
Member
I apologize. I only read the bolded part.
#Miiquality | Bringing same-sex relationships to Nintendo's Tomodachi series
- Thread starter Tyeforce
- Start date
Nintendo is known for weird, outdated, and backwards things, but dropping the ball here and catering to "bigots and children of bigots" is not a thing people will just brush off. Not that I think they are purposefully doing this to cater to bigots, but your post implies that they are better off this way to not anger such people.
Nintendo has always benefited from being on a platform of social popularity and cultural relevance. Nintendo has been a cultural icon for decades. People who know nothing about gaming probably still know what "Nintendo" is. They may not be about cutting edge tech, but they brand themselves and their products in a welcoming way for everyone. So yes, I think that, more so than any other game company, they have a compelling interest in not excluding a group of people from their games.
Aaronrules380
Member
Perhaps, but that's the reality of the situation, and it isn't malicious. In this case, so much about Tomadachi life isn't clear if it will have western appeal that this will just be one small issue in the midst of many others in Nintendo's eyes. Unless this gets actual media attention to reach out to those outside the gaming community, this won't affect sales enough this time around to be considered the reason for the game doing poorly
Gay marriage is hardly legal throughout most of America, too.
Waylon Drums
Member
I'd say a good 42% of the posts in this thread in the past few hours have amounted to "Nintendo made a business decision and you're not allowed to have a problem with it" which is, sadly, a common theme on NeoGAF.
Mordacious
Banned
Are you saying the gaming community is too progressive and activist for the likes of Nintendo and Japan? Maybe some of us just want to leave the politics out of video games?
What a weakshit argument. It's being released in places where it is legal. Also, it's a fucking game, who cares about realism.
Simon Belmont
Banned
Then what are you doing in this thread? I don't want politics and video games to intersect for me, so they shouldn't for you too?
Owlowiscious
Member
I wasn't trying to guild trip. I assumed they enjoyed the genre and the gameplay presented.
I agree.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Well there is a lot of options they could do to appeal to people that don't want "politics" in this game (people suggesting activate just for some characters or others).
Waylon Drums
Member
Gay relationships aren't political. Gay marriage becomes a political issue when there's opposition, but asking for gay relationships in a life simulator has nothing to do with politics.
How lucky for you that you don't have to feel marginalized or treated as non-existent by a form of media you enjoy. Or if you are you simply are too much of a mark for that form of media to give a shit.
eudaemonic
Member
At this point, the Internet has made me wish the game wasn't even announced for the US/EU. Way to take something that was supposed to be innocent stupid fun and turn it into a "damned if does/damned if it doesn't" situations.
You can have a problem with it. We're trying to say "Here's why Nintendo's decision makes sense from a business perspective and getting angry at them for reflecting the unfortunate reality of our times may not be the best way to get this changed in the future."
Crash Station
Member
To be fair, all support from those companies come from their presence in the west.
The subject at hand is Tomodachi Life, a game made solely for the Japanese audience that was localized on a whim a year later. As has been said, gay marriage is currently illegal in Japan. There are of course many people rightfully trying to change that like Aya Kamikawa, but this is an issue with the country itself rather than Nintendo specifically.
If TL were to do well in the west, they would be taken into account during the development process for a hypothetical sequel. Gay marriage would probably be included.
Owlowiscious
Member
It's legal in some places. Is your point about the localization team not doing anything about this situation? I'm talking about how the place where the game was made and made for was Japan, where gay marraige is illegal throughout.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Again. It can be innocent and stupid fun with gay characters.
I miss when games were games and people were satisfied by just not paying money for something unsatisfactory. Now we have early access where people are literally paying full price for an "idea" of a game, Twitter campaigns to change games, and blogs/vlogs protesting them. I shouldn't even have to say that I'm all for gay rights but that's hardly the issue here. Gamers need to stop being so fucking entitled because it's going to make things worse in the future.
I thought the way this was handled was fine, the problem is people are much more emotional over social issues so they can easily claim it's insensitive to talk business about such a matter.
I thought the way this was handled was fine, the problem is people are much more emotional over social issues so they can easily claim it's insensitive to talk business about such a matter.
This.
In 2014 it's eyebrow-raising to not at least be cognizant of same-sex relationships and the reality that the notion will at some point be addressed, even in the context of a "kids" game. This is not the 1950s; if you create a game that has romantic relationships, you will have to deal with the idea that same-sex couples exist.
Who would damn Nintendo for acknowledging the LGBTQ community? Bigots? Oh no, not the reactionary bigots. They're sure to bring down Nintendo. Nintendo would be, how do you say, DOOMED!
Mordacious
Banned
Trying to argue that Nintendo has a right to be neutral and some of us actually prefer it that way. But it seems that in "2014" you are only allowed to fall into one of two camps: Progressive activist or bigot. Neutrality shall not be tolerated because its the same as being ignorant or an excuse for hiding bigotry, right? I guess the Swiss in their historical neutrality have always been a bunch of ignorant bigots? Of course not, but according to the predominant logic here, they must be.
You should really be talking about Ellen, if you want to make a point. I remember when Ellen first came on, it was a TV show about a quirky woman with friends. Then during the last episodes of the 4th season, Ellen came out as gay. This was on ABC, so of course everyone freaked out. I thought Lesbian was a religion, as I could see why someone's parents would get mad they weren't christian anymore. When I found out what it meant, it blew my mind. ABC started airing parental warnings before each episode, and the show lasted exactly one more season.
The point being, all of those shows have gay people in mind. If glee started out as straight people having a glee club, and then Gay rights got mad that there weren't any gay people on the show, and they force gays on there, that isn't equality. That's bullying.
They'd probably enjoy it if they could have a gay relationship. Would you buy a life sim where gay relationships are the only option available?
Waylon Drums
Member
What would be the best way to get this changed for the future? To keep supporting them and hoping real hard that they'll wake up someday? Or to hit them where it hurts, their wallet, to get them to wake up now?
Owlowiscious
Member
This forming opinion is why I started posting in this thread.
Get gay marriage legalized in Japan.
Simon Belmont
Banned
This post is a monument to willful ignorance.
Owlowiscious
Member
Since I'm buying this for the terrible vocaloid app, if that had that same feature, yes.
Waylon Drums
Member
What is neutral about making a game about one's own life with no option for gay players to actually be themselves?
Using "historically neutral" Switzerland to prop up a shitty non-response from a corporation about social responsibility and the LGBTQ community? Are you playing Flimsy Logic Free-for-All? What willfully ignorant tripe.
Wouldn't it be quite the opposite? If you take everything passively things will get worse, if you react they will get better.
Anyway I think this could somehow impact the next iteration, doubt Nintendo will do anything now, close to the release.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I invite you to read the anwser they did and why is kind of annoying even if it is most probably not malicious.
Hell, personally I will respect them more if they outright said: "That is a hot political issue that we want to avoid."
No the "Magical innocent" crap that ended saying.
AdmiralMikey
Member
I struggle with this a lot. I'm a straight male, this incident doesn't really affect me, but nothing really affects me.
I don't know how I would feel if I were gay and wanted to play Tomodachi. Would I be angry I couldn't have a relationship with another man? Would I just ignore the game completely and move on? Would I shrug my shoulders and just enjoy what the rest of the game has to offer? I don't know, and I'll never know.
However, just because I don't know how I would feel doesn't mean it doesn't matter how others feel. Others should be able to enjoy Tomodachi Life on the same level that I do, and if same-sex relationships will make their enjoyment of the game equal to mine, then Nintendo and all game developers should probably consider that.
casinoman921
Member
I bet they'll have a day one patch to allow it.
Waylon Drums
Member
I agree. Even a shitty real response is better than an asinine non-response.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Generally speaking, international pressuare can help to make noise and move people in a country.
What? why is it inconceivable for nintendo to patch in a marriage option or put it in future iteration. Also changes occur in localization all the time why can't it occur here. Also I doubt nintendo can't put a gay option because of legal ramifications, gay characters do exist in Japanese video games.
So where do you draw the line? When does the developer completely lose creative control? How well received do you think a book series would be if it were merely taking into account all the wishes of the readers? What about if the writers of tv shows didn't touch season finales and just wrote them straight from Twitter?
Generally speaking, the most helpful thing appears to be old people dying off and getting replaced by more liberal young ones.
Have you seen the trailers? If Trinen was proposing to Link, I would still be on board. But then there wouldn't be any baby streetpass stuff, unless Tomadatchi Life now has a cool adoption animation.
Don't buy the game. But don't expect another if it does really poorly. Especially if Nintendo can't find a 'nice' way to represent that mommies and daddies can't have kids while the others can.
I'm fine if they take a neutral stance towards romantic relationships and simply do not provide any.
We have a regular Miyamoto over here.
I'm glad the awareness is out there for Nintendo to possibly include more varied relationship options in a future game. It's probably too late to add it to this game. As I understand it, it's already finished. Some reviewers already have had copies for a while.
If they truly want to do homosexual relationships justice, they're going to have to make some very drastic changes to the game's design, so it's going to take some time.
Like in the DS Tomodachi Collection, you couldn't choose who your Mii fell in love with. They would just tell you who they liked, and you could either tell them to go for it or not. Telling them no would bum them out for a while. Because you don't directly control your Mii's actions, they would need to find a way to tactfully determine your sexual orientation beforehand, to prevent your Mii from falling in love with someone that doesn't match their sexual preference.
If Nintendo is serious about the thing, they could change how the game works by letting you directly choose who a Mii goes after. But, again, that's drastically changing the design of the game, giving you direct control of the Mii.
Hopefully the Nintendo folks in Japan don't just ignore these pleas. Hopefully they take these concerns to the designers and do well with the next game. Hopefully NOA gets a chance to localize another Tomodachi Collection game in the future.
If they truly want to do homosexual relationships justice, they're going to have to make some very drastic changes to the game's design, so it's going to take some time.
Like in the DS Tomodachi Collection, you couldn't choose who your Mii fell in love with. They would just tell you who they liked, and you could either tell them to go for it or not. Telling them no would bum them out for a while. Because you don't directly control your Mii's actions, they would need to find a way to tactfully determine your sexual orientation beforehand, to prevent your Mii from falling in love with someone that doesn't match their sexual preference.
If Nintendo is serious about the thing, they could change how the game works by letting you directly choose who a Mii goes after. But, again, that's drastically changing the design of the game, giving you direct control of the Mii.
Hopefully the Nintendo folks in Japan don't just ignore these pleas. Hopefully they take these concerns to the designers and do well with the next game. Hopefully NOA gets a chance to localize another Tomodachi Collection game in the future.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I'm not completely up to speed on all the nuances of this particular conversation, but I'd first like to encourage that animosity with each other -- regardless of where your'e coming from -- isn't productive. Being the hopeless optimist that I am, I'd like to think (though I'm probably wrong) that we're all in favor of the type of equality that the movement strives for regardless of whether this particular instance registers with us.
On the one hand, I understand that being a port of a game from Japan aimed at younger audiences probably explains why it's not going to be on the cutting edge of progressive concerns. On the other, it should be easy to understand why one not feeling included in the demographics for the title based on sexual orientation will leave people disappointed or upset. If you think the game looks fun and think the business realities explain why such a change won't be implemented to this title, I think that's fine. However, it shouldn't be surprising when people who care about this kind of social change continue to press the issue.
Basically, I don't think you're a bad person and unsympathetic to progressive concerns if you don't participate in a boycott of this game. However, I do think some of the rationales provided for why this is seemingly a fool's errand are unfortunate. The idea that we're lucky to have a localization at all isn't particularly strong. And I also don't think a shrug of the shoulders and a concession that the situation is what it is constitutes very productive dialog either. That might ultimately be the reality of the situation, but it's not a compelling counterargument to people trying to promote progressive change.
Also, though I understand that NoA may not be in a position to alter the game in such a way as to adhere to what the campaign sets out to do, I think even people who understand what they're doing and why should probably agree that the response is unsatisfactory. They're going to have to do better than that.
On the one hand, I understand that being a port of a game from Japan aimed at younger audiences probably explains why it's not going to be on the cutting edge of progressive concerns. On the other, it should be easy to understand why one not feeling included in the demographics for the title based on sexual orientation will leave people disappointed or upset. If you think the game looks fun and think the business realities explain why such a change won't be implemented to this title, I think that's fine. However, it shouldn't be surprising when people who care about this kind of social change continue to press the issue.
Basically, I don't think you're a bad person and unsympathetic to progressive concerns if you don't participate in a boycott of this game. However, I do think some of the rationales provided for why this is seemingly a fool's errand are unfortunate. The idea that we're lucky to have a localization at all isn't particularly strong. And I also don't think a shrug of the shoulders and a concession that the situation is what it is constitutes very productive dialog either. That might ultimately be the reality of the situation, but it's not a compelling counterargument to people trying to promote progressive change.
Also, though I understand that NoA may not be in a position to alter the game in such a way as to adhere to what the campaign sets out to do, I think even people who understand what they're doing and why should probably agree that the response is unsatisfactory. They're going to have to do better than that.
This.
I get that there are cultural differences between Japan and the West, but how did NOA not see this coming? Nintendo has a huge gay following in the west, surely someone should've pointed out to the higher ups that a "life simulator" where you have to be heterosexual would cause some uproar in their fanbase. Hopefully they'll rectify it in the sequel.
And why include any romantic relationships at all if this is a "kids game"?
I agree. People need to speak with their voices and their wallets.
Now I know that every time someone posts that Reggieshrugs picture in response to Nintendo not getting it when it comes to online/hardware/games, it's actually meant as a good thing because they are being neutral like Switzerland
The most sensible thing would be for Nintendo to acknowledge that when they localize a game for NA, this is something they have to pay attention to, and for people to recognize that this was probably done not out of malice, but more so the common Nintendo ignorance/dragging its feet on stuff (which they do with a lot of things). I don't think anyone is demanding that the game be something different in Japan, but if Nintendo is going to bring a game out here, we expect it to be localized - especially from a localization department as big and talented as Treehouse (of which the head, Bill Trinen, was the person responsible for the non-response).
Though it may seem trivial to some, keeping a hetero-only relationship system in the game for America is, for a fair amount of people, the same as if they didn't even translate the text from Japanese.
The most sensible thing would be for Nintendo to acknowledge that when they localize a game for NA, this is something they have to pay attention to, and for people to recognize that this was probably done not out of malice, but more so the common Nintendo ignorance/dragging its feet on stuff (which they do with a lot of things). I don't think anyone is demanding that the game be something different in Japan, but if Nintendo is going to bring a game out here, we expect it to be localized - especially from a localization department as big and talented as Treehouse (of which the head, Bill Trinen, was the person responsible for the non-response).
Though it may seem trivial to some, keeping a hetero-only relationship system in the game for America is, for a fair amount of people, the same as if they didn't even translate the text from Japanese.
Ya lets just wait till old people die...Why accept the status quo when you can change it.
So the choice to be gay in a Nintendo game is a slippery slope that will just destroy all creative enterprise and we'll have to live in some kind of crowdsource dystopia.
Do you think about things you type?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
You know that the old people can educate the young to be as them? Specially when they are unchanged?