viveks86
Member
1. Yes
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[MLID] Zen 6 Magnus Leak: AMD's MASSIVE APU for next gen console (+ Medusa Point Specs)
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- Rumor Hype
2. Yes
3. DMing my Paypal. Remember to choose "Family and Friends" so I don't get charged
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
HeisenbergFX4
Member
viveks86
Member
Need to sub elsewhere for a healthy distraction. Phil's balls are getting old
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Seems like it
But its a console
You know someone's gonna post "so it's a PC" in the next 10 minutes
vaibhavpisal
Member
It would suck if they did this instead of full store.
They have mentioned about a forward compatibility team. Maybe they will only assure games releasing in future.
Just a speculation, maybe older PC games from different stores would generally work but no guarantee. There is a whole lot of stuff out there and ensuring compatibility might not be possible.
Roman Empire
Member
So it is a PC then?You know someone's gonna post "so it's a PC" in the next 10 minutes
PeteBull
Member
No worries, he casted on himself genjutsu where xbox series already sold over 100m unitsSshhhh.adamsapple is reading this. Let's be a bit more discreet.
demigod
Member
No way are they aiming for 50 million when their current consoles can't even break 40. I don't see them subsidizing these when they already raised prices on current gen. Plus aren't their surface team is in control? And if they undercut the AIBs too much, they won't be happy if their stock sits in warehouses.
Proelite
Member
I doubt you can install anything you want on it like a PC.
viveks86
Member
Indeed. That's garbo and not worth getting hyped over
As long as everything stays on x86, following already established standards, like direct X, windows based kernel etc. technical forwards compatibility is not much of an issue with good, iterative design practices. From a licensing standpoint, they will have to get "play anywhere" to be universally adopted so that future releasing games are not locked to console or PC only. This won't be possible for legacy titles as several of those publishers, including but not limited to self published indies, are likely not in business anymore, delisted from stores and hence cannot be negotiated with. Those licensing agreements are essentially set in stone for life.
I think in the long run, play anywhere is consumer friendly. It just isn't publisher friendly without Xbox adequately compensating them for it. If they still have a big enough warchest, they may be able to pull it off for a majority of titles. But I'm skeptical about how long a leash MS is still giving the Xbox division.
They should generally all work if they run the PC games in a regular windows-based sandbox, albeit with limited functionality. I think that's the route they will go instead of mixing them into the console sandbox. Seems like a headache that can be avoided by cleanly separating the two. The UI can still seamlessly switch between them. Just my theory
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Jaguar Victory
Member
We shall see. This also opens up the ecosystem to all the major VR players which is real cool.
SegaSnatcher
Member
Why would it lead to more exclusives? That makes zero sense. Also, why do you care if something is exclusive? Just pick your plastic of choice and enjoy.
SegaSnatcher
Member
Dude, If it runs Windows, even if its just in the background it's still a PC and will run PC software. Just because it will use a more user friendly UI doesn't change that.
viveks86
Member
It's (allegedly) a console-pc hybrid. By definition, as all hybrids go, it is both. This is starting to feel like a high school debate "is the child of a white mother and black father black or white?". Why are we trying to assign a binary classification when by definition it isn't? So let's skip that debate. I already had it with one person and am burnt out. That's not the hill I want to die on. Call it a PC if you would like.
A Siemens ultrasound machine runs a windows OS and you can technically install and play games on it. "So then it's just a prebuilt PC" lacks any meaningful nuance to truly understanding licensing implications or even core function. It's reductive and useless. All consoles are technically PCs, because they have an OS powering them. It's true but how useful is that statement from a licensing standpoint? It doesn't convey anything in a world where everything is starting to have computing power.
Soon humans will have chips in their brains and it will have an OS and we can play games in our minds. Then we will all be prebuilt PCs. Just kidding. Or am I?
Ultimately, what its primary function is and how it is sold is what matters. If Xbox is presenting it as their next console, it's their next console and the publishers would enforce licensing accordingly. It wants to be a PC on the side, by all means they can do that as long as they don't muddy the waters and handle it separately within the device. A console during the day and a PC at night. Sounds good? It's Batman.
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Jaguar Victory
Member
I look at it as a PC with a custom XBOX wrapper but what separates it from the rest of the PC's is that it's not customizable. It's bespoke hardware not necessarily the software. But we'll see.
bitbydeath
Member
Microsoft are asking people to call it a console despite it being a PC because they want to avoid lawsuits.
Bry0
Member
The original Xbox used the nt5 kernel as did the 360, so those are PCs?
That's a very arbitrary definition. What you should focus on is the UX and intended use case for the device. If it uses a windows kernel or not is irrelevant to if it's a "PC".
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viveks86
Member
Bespoke hardware may not be sufficient to differentiate the platform from a licensing standpoint. If you buy the next Xbox and suddenly you don't have to purchase a PC version of an Xbox console game that you already own that is not on the "play anywhere" program, and now you can mess around with its ini files in a PC-like environment, unlock things that are not meant to be unlocked and install mods? That would be unacceptable to me as a publisher. First, I lost a potential PC game sale and now you are also modding it? I won't sue you, but I'll sue Microsoft for opening up a platform and my game in a way that I never signed up for. The point is that a console license has to run in a closed environment, whether they do it by OS/VM level separation or file level separation or some new encryption method is up to them. I proposed an idea here, but I have no clue what they have actually come up with. Whatever that is, that's the part that represents the bespoke software. Some kind of logical separation to support the 2 types of licenses that are sitting on the device. The naming itself, whether to call it a PC or a console, can be used interchangeably and you can make a case for either. I just feel that calling it a prebuilt PC removes nuance and conveys less than calling it a console that can play PC games. But that's just me
PlayStaytion
Member
It's depressing to see these specs been used effectively only on halo and few other games.
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PlayStaytion
Member
Right, most gaffers don't mention you still get better choices on pc for every single game.
awwr999999
Member
It will take 20 years worth of 20/20 hindsight for most Xbox people to realize that MS was just driving everything back to PC and Windows.
With 'everything as an Xbox' PC will stand out as the only thing that can actually deliver in terms of gameplay.
bitbydeath
Member
None have used Win32 to run PC games before.
Likely the only thing console related that will remain is the emulation needed for BC.
That sounds more like "identifying as a console" as opposed to actually being one under the hood.
Bry0
Member
Yes, which is why none of this really matters in the end! Arguably it's always basically been a box running botched windows using the same direct x apis. Win32 or not. Being able to run win32 games with some extensions loaded is a nice bonus but that doesn't mean I'm going to do my taxes on it. The circular arguments about if it's a pc or not in these threads always leads nowhere. Xbox has been able to run uwp apps for 2 generations.None have used Win32 to run PC games before.
Likely the only thing console related that will remain is the emulation needed for BC.
That sounds more like "identifying as a console" as opposed to actually being one under the hood.
It's all about marketing and UX. If it behaves like a console, if it doesn't have a full desktop, if I can't use my win11 installer on it or wipe the drive and install Linux, is it still a pc?
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Tobimacoss
Member
Series Consoles run Win32 games.None have used Win32 to run PC games before.
Likely the only thing console related that will remain is the emulation needed for BC.
That sounds more like "identifying as a console" as opposed to actually being one under the hood.
bitbydeath
Member
Consoles use Game Development Kit. (GDK)
Win32 is restricted to PC games only.
Next-gen is expected to remove GDK and use just Win32.
bitbydeath
Member
dgrdsv
Member
Which it probably kinda will on average.
Or you're expecting a 2X lift-up from the same number of units?
RDNA4 already hit most of low hanging fruits in what was wrong with RDNA3, improving to RDNA5 from that will likely be smaller than what RDNA4 showed.
And RDNA3->4 was "just" +20-30% or so outside of edge cases, and this has already cost them +123% of die complexity.
RDNA5 being made for next gen consoles is highly unlikely to have the same complexity increase as costs are the main target for any console h/w.
I thought you were talking about RT performance, since the 9070 XT doesn't perform like a 3090 in rasterization. And RT performance is where there is still some room for improvement, since RDNA 4 is roughly where Turing was in 2018, in terms of the performance hit of enabling RT.
SegaSnatcher
Member
No, since you couldn't run native PC software on those platforms.
Tobimacoss
Member
Really, you are going to quote jez corden article, who is clueless, rather than going directly to the source? The GDK is Win32 based. Jez is right but 6 years too late.
GitHub - microsoft/GDK: Microsoft Public GDK
Microsoft Public GDK. Contribute to microsoft/GDK development by creating an account on GitHub.
github.com
"The GDK is an evolution to the Win32 legacy, to unify the app model between Xbox consoles, Windows PCs, and now Cloud Gaming to enable game developers to reach even more gamers on more devices, with less effort."
"Using Win32 + GDK is the primary, supported app model to build games for Xbox console, Xbox Game Pass (both Xbox and PC), and Xbox Game Streaming**."
MS has already unified Game development since June 2019, for PC, Consoles, Cloud when targeting the Xbox ecosystem. That's when GDK hit 1.0 and PC Gamepass and Ultimate were introduced. Gears 5 being one of the first GDK created games, not UWP.
MS has been working on convergence for at least 12 years. Everything is hybrid now for MS. A brief history lesson:
In the beginning, a Win32 API was created, early 90s, using C programming language. Win32 aka Windows API. This is what all the PC games are using, from Steam/Epic etc. Win32 games are distributed unpackaged, as .exe. This makes them easier to mod but also easier to pirate, thus requiring Denuvo and Anti-Cheats.
MS created the MSI (MS Installer) for safer distribution of the Win32 apps.
In 2012, MS created the WinRT API with windows 8, built using C++ programming language, it's a more modern API, with it's app model being automatically sandboxed. This app model evolved into the Universal Windows Platform, (UWP). UWP was hated by PC gamers due to it's locked down nature designed for security.
On Xbox Side, the Xbox One used the XDK, which created ERA (also WinRT based) app model games. The XDK was used from 2013-2020 when it was subsumed by the GDKX. XDK games were distributed as XVC (Xbox virtual container).
UWP (pure WinRT) apps and games were distributed via appX. Win32 was distributed via MSI.
So in 2018, MS merged the distribution of Win32 and UWP apps. MSIX was created which could distribute both sandboxed UWP or containerized Win32.
MSI + appX = MSIX
MS Store primary distribution mechanism for apps is MSIX. It is open sourced distribution format.
In 2019, MS ditched UWP since it wasn't gaining adoption amongst developers and went to use Win32 based app models but they modernized it with the WinRT APIs. It was much more easier to add WinRT APIs to Win32 (windows API) apps than vice versa.
MS only creates new WinRT APIs, for example DX12 are all WinRT APIs, but fully accessible in Win32 apps and games. Things like Fluent Design for Windows 11 are all WinRT.
There's no pure WinRT app models, as both XDK (ERA) and UWP are deprecated, but there's no pure Win32, app model either as WinRT APIs for used for everything in Windows and Xbox. Everything is hybrid, merger of all the previous MS technologies.
Anyways, the GDK creates MSIXVC packaged Win32 games. Those games are then run inside a Type 1 hypervisor (low level VM).
MSIX + XVC = MSIXVC
MSIXVC is proprietary to the Xbox Ecosystem. MSIX for apps, and MSIXVC for games are the final two distribution mechanisms for Microsoft.
PC games are designed to scale to various hardware, hundreds of configurations while console games are designed to be optimized to a fixed spec hardware.
The GDKX is basically GDK + Xbox console extensions designed for optimization to AMD APUs. The GDK is used to build Win32 games for Xbox PC (MS Store/PC Gamepass) while the GDKX is then used to optimize those Win32 games for the AMD hardware.
Steam/Epic games are Windows SDK created and unpackaged Win32 games.
Xbox PC games are GDK created, MSIXVC packaged Win32 games.
Xbox Series games are GDKX created, MSIXVC packaged Win32 games.
Xbox One games before 2020 are XDK created WinRT games. Xbox One games after 2020 are GDK created games.
Windows 11 Home runs Windows SDK and GDK games. Xbox OS runs GDKX and XDK games. All MS is doing is basically converging the Windows And Xbox OS so that the same OS can run all of the above as needed, based on the form factors. But it is a hardware based Universal Xbox Platform, as in only on Xbox designed and certified AMD APUs.
So the Console device will run Windows SDK games when invoked, but GDKX games as default, and XDK games as BC.
A normal PC will run Windows SDK and GDK games, what is the status quo.
An "Xbox PC" on an AMD APU will run all of the above. So when Smart Delivery detects the Xbox certified AMD hardware, it will deliver the Xbox Console versions of games to that device unless a console version doesn't exist like ForSpoken.
TLDR: The GDK and GDKX are Win32 based, and MS will never distribute unpackaged games.
bitbydeath
Member
Win32 based is the keyword, not Win32.Really, you are going to quote jez corden article, who is clueless, rather than going directly to the source? The GDK is Win32 based. Jez is right but 6 years too late.
GitHub - microsoft/GDK: Microsoft Public GDK
Microsoft Public GDK. Contribute to microsoft/GDK development by creating an account on GitHub.
"The GDK is an evolution to the Win32 legacy, to unify the app model between Xbox consoles, Windows PCs, and now Cloud Gaming to enable game developers to reach even more gamers on more devices, with less effort."
"Using Win32 + GDK is the primary, supported app model to build games for Xbox console, Xbox Game Pass (both Xbox and PC), and Xbox Game Streaming**."
MS has already unified Game development since June 2019, for PC, Consoles, Cloud when targeting the Xbox ecosystem. That's when GDK hit 1.0 and PC Gamepass and Ultimate were introduced. Gears 5 being one of the first GDK created games, not UWP.
MS has been working on convergence for at least 12 years. Everything is hybrid now for MS. A brief history lesson:
In the beginning, a Win32 API was created, early 90s, using C programming language. Win32 aka Windows API. This is what all the PC games are using, from Steam/Epic etc. Win32 games are distributed unpackaged, as .exe. This makes them easier to mod but also easier to pirate, thus requiring Denuvo and Anti-Cheats.
MS created the MSI (MS Installer) for safer distribution of the Win32 apps.
In 2012, MS created the WinRT API with windows 8, built using C++ programming language, it's a more modern API, with it's app model being automatically sandboxed. This app model evolved into the Universal Windows Platform, (UWP). UWP was hated by PC gamers due to it's locked down nature designed for security.
On Xbox Side, the Xbox One used the XDK, which created ERA (also WinRT based) app model games. The XDK was used from 2013-2020 when it was subsumed by the GDKX. XDK games were distributed as XVC (Xbox virtual container).
UWP (pure WinRT) apps and games were distributed via appX. Win32 was distributed via MSI.
So in 2018, MS merged the distribution of Win32 and UWP apps. MSIX was created which could distribute both sandboxed UWP or containerized Win32.
MSI + appX = MSIX
MS Store primary distribution mechanism for apps is MSIX. It is open sourced distribution format.
In 2019, MS ditched UWP since it wasn't gaining adoption amongst developers and went to use Win32 based app models but they modernized it with the WinRT APIs. It was much more easier to add WinRT APIs to Win32 (windows API) apps than vice versa.
MS only creates new WinRT APIs, for example DX12 are all WinRT APIs, but fully accessible in Win32 apps and games. Things like Fluent Design for Windows 11 are all WinRT.
There's no pure WinRT app models, as both XDK (ERA) and UWP are deprecated, but there's no pure Win32, app model either as WinRT APIs for used for everything in Windows and Xbox. Everything is hybrid, merger of all the previous MS technologies.
Anyways, the GDK creates MSIXVC packaged Win32 games. Those games are then run inside a Type 1 hypervisor (low level VM).
MSIX + XVC = MSIXVC
MSIXVC is proprietary to the Xbox Ecosystem. MSIX for apps, and MSIXVC for games are the final two distribution mechanisms for Microsoft.
PC games are designed to scale to various hardware, hundreds of configurations while console games are designed to be optimized to a fixed spec hardware.
The GDKX is basically GDK + Xbox console extensions designed for optimization to AMD APUs. The GDK is used to build Win32 games for Xbox PC (MS Store/PC Gamepass) while the GDKX is then used to optimize those Win32 games for the AMD hardware.
Steam/Epic games are Windows SDK created and unpackaged Win32 games.
Xbox PC games are GDK created, MSIXVC packaged Win32 games.
Xbox Series games are GDKX created, MSIXVC packaged Win32 games.
Xbox One games before 2020 are XDK created WinRT games. Xbox One games after 2020 are GDK created games.
Windows 11 Home runs Windows SDK and GDK games. Xbox OS runs GDKX and XDK games. All MS is doing is basically converging the Windows And Xbox OS so that the same OS can run all of the above as needed, based on the form factors. But it is a hardware based Universal Xbox Platform, as in only on Xbox designed and certified AMD APUs.
So the Console device will run Windows SDK games when invoked, but GDKX games as default, and XDK games as BC.
A normal PC will run Windows SDK and GDK games, what is the status quo.
An "Xbox PC" on an AMD APU will run all of the above. So when Smart Delivery detects the Xbox certified AMD hardware, it will deliver the Xbox Console versions of games to that device unless a console version doesn't exist like ForSpoken.
TLDR: The GDK and GDKX are Win32 based, and MS will never distribute unpackaged games.
Also, the information isn't from Jez, it's from Sarah Bond, Jez was just reporting it.
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Daniel_Mallorca1985
Member
Update from KeplerL2:
Honestly I don't really care about "winning" this argument and don't want to add any fuel to this console war BS, but I did want to double check my estimates to make sure I'm not crazy and found some internal AMD production (not sales) volume data and it's even worse than I thought for Xbox.
Honestly I don't really care about "winning" this argument and don't want to add any fuel to this console war BS, but I did want to double check my estimates to make sure I'm not crazy and found some internal AMD production (not sales) volume data and it's even worse than I thought for Xbox.
dgrdsv
Member
RT performance cannot be seen outside of general performance improvements. PS5Pro had a 3X claim for RT in the leaked docs and yet we don't really see that on practice at all - because you're still limited by shading and bandwidth in practical applications of RT rendering. For the same reasons Nvidia's roughly 2X improvements to RT in each gen between Turing and Blackwell has resulted in ~30% average speedup.
Thus if we are looking at a GPU performing in 5070-5080 bracket you should look at how these cards are performing on average, in RT and PT titles as well, to get a feeling of where such GPU will end up on practice.
I would say that at this level of general performance PT is unlikely to happen outside of select 30 fps modes/titles. More advanced RT like what we've had in 2020's CP2077 release on PC could become the norm in next console gen though.
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viveks86
Member
peish
Member
Now that DF made a video about this, i think there's some murmuring truths … it's a brave gamble by Sarah bond, i assume she is the driver here.
This seems like a steam box before valve could do one
Next gen seems underwhelming if you main consoles. Sony choosing a lower powered baseline ps6, MS doing some hack job in creating another new product segment, an imposter gaming pc?
This seems like a steam box before valve could do one
Next gen seems underwhelming if you main consoles. Sony choosing a lower powered baseline ps6, MS doing some hack job in creating another new product segment, an imposter gaming pc?
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On average, TPU has the 5070 Ti 4% faster than the 9070 XT in rasterization and 17% faster in RT at 4K. So the "gap" in RT alone is 12.5% here. If we look at the combined RT IPC improvement for both RNDA 3 and RDNA 4, it's about 14% in the Computerbase benchmarks. (To be clear, this *does not* include general performance improvements, which when added would give a 47% boost). So I think it should be possible for RDNA 5 to close the gap to Blackwell in RT, with significant architectural improvements. And that leaves open the possibility of 5070 Ti (or 5080 for Magnus) class RT performance on the consoles.
That doesn't include PT, but PT is where we can get disproportionate gains from RT advancements anyway. Here Computerbase found an 83% overall performance improvement for RDNA 4 vs. RDNA 3 in the 3 games they tested.
Wie viel mehr Performance bringt die neue GPU-Architektur?
Die aktuellen Grafikkarten von AMD und Nvidia haben eine neue Architektur. Ob die Shader mehr Performance pro Takt liefern, zeigt der Test.
AMD RDNA 2 vs. RDNA 3 in Spielen
Was bringt AMDs RDNA-3-Architektur gegenüber RDNA 2? Das findet die Redaktion mit Hilfe der Radeon RX 7900 GRE und RX 6950 XT heraus.
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StreetsofBeige
Member
Any Xbox handheld or customized Xbox branded PC I have zero interest in.
As for a dedicated next gen Xbox console (with PS5 Pro currently being $950 CDN I think), if that's the new going rate for consoles then if its ballpark $1,000-ish CDN that's my limit. Maybe I'll up it to $1,100 when it comes out in 2 years or whenever. But I got a $1,000 threshold in my head I dont want to go over. Just like for TVs, I never go more than $2,000 pre-tax. I think every TV Ive bought has been in that $1,500-1,800 range. And PCs/laptops, same max. I've never hit $2,000. Always in a $1,000-1,200 range, but my current one I splurged and got an MSI gaming laptop for $1,800. When I add tax it hits $2,000.
If it's more I'll skip it and wait for a deal, and just keep going SX and 4070 laptop gaming like now.
As for a dedicated next gen Xbox console (with PS5 Pro currently being $950 CDN I think), if that's the new going rate for consoles then if its ballpark $1,000-ish CDN that's my limit. Maybe I'll up it to $1,100 when it comes out in 2 years or whenever. But I got a $1,000 threshold in my head I dont want to go over. Just like for TVs, I never go more than $2,000 pre-tax. I think every TV Ive bought has been in that $1,500-1,800 range. And PCs/laptops, same max. I've never hit $2,000. Always in a $1,000-1,200 range, but my current one I splurged and got an MSI gaming laptop for $1,800. When I add tax it hits $2,000.
If it's more I'll skip it and wait for a deal, and just keep going SX and 4070 laptop gaming like now.
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