Monolithsoft WiiU trailer - X (Takahashi x Tanaka x Sawano, Xenoblade x/multiplayer?)
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Silent_Ocarina
Member
Am I blind or is there no difference in those screenshots?
I think the difference is most apparent in the second Super Mario 64 screenshot. Look at Mario's model. The sharp edges are rounded off in the tessellated screenshot.
Ohhh I see the difference now. Wasn't sure what I was supposed to be looking at at first. But then I guess most people wouldn't notice something like that anyway :x
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I'm not confident the Wii U's tessellation capabilities are anything to write home about. Could be Xbox 360 levels of "usefulness" for all we know.
A HD remaster of Xenoblade probably isn't worth it. I love the game and it scrubs up stupid well in Dolphin, but outside of a higher and cleaner rendering resolution the work to remaster Xenoblade would be pretty huge, and by the time it was done (even if outsourced) we probably wouldn't be far away from X.
Wind Waker HD is due out this year, and is clearly a stopgap until the proper console Zelda, which doesn't really exist as a game yet. X, on the other hand, is the real deal and has been worked on for quite awhile.
A HD remaster of Xenoblade probably isn't worth it. I love the game and it scrubs up stupid well in Dolphin, but outside of a higher and cleaner rendering resolution the work to remaster Xenoblade would be pretty huge, and by the time it was done (even if outsourced) we probably wouldn't be far away from X.
Wind Waker HD is due out this year, and is clearly a stopgap until the proper console Zelda, which doesn't really exist as a game yet. X, on the other hand, is the real deal and has been worked on for quite awhile.
lostinblue
Banned
Tesselation can add geometry to simpler models without human input, which on a game like Xenoblade would take forever, possibly turning into a full fledged remake of the game assets.
Of course, you have to be careful; there's a glitch in those images which is the master sword appearing fat at the handle due to the way the algorithm interpreted the shape; that was a problem with Truform (an early Tesselation technique, the one being used there) but isn't right now as one can opt to "protect" certain shapes (hence why having access to the code is important)
As for actual results, it's supposed to give a rounder appearance to everything that wants to be rounder, lacks polygons; could benefit Xenoblade in a very good way.
That well applied, new textures, enhanced character models and stencil shadows and you'd have a game that wouldn't look out of place on X360/PS3.
Hell no. They'd have to downgrade the Tesselation unit for that to happen.
X360's Tesselation Unit biggest problem was that it bloated vertex data in a very great way (which is normal, it's adding geometry) but it didn't support vertex compression formats so you'd have to either decompress them in order to be processed and then compress again to reduce the footprint impact; or not use compression at all which would take a lot of RAM. I'm recalling this by memory so some details might be inaccurate, but later generations implemented vertex compression formats which is why it's something doable to use.
Also, Truform was actually done on CPU, one can even take the code out for a ride and customize it to one's delight (that's how those images were realized). Wii U can aim for those results in a HD remaster, no problem; it's just the implementation that is far from standard.
Thing is, X probably needs as much time as it can before it launches.
And having Xenoblade playable and in stock by the time X is looming close might boost it's sales. It's as logic as when Sony reprinted Ico before launching Shadow of the Colossus.
On the Wii U though, having a reprint of a game that won't accept anything other than a Wiimote+nunchuck or Wiimote+classic controller is a bummer.
Plus, game is really suited for the Wii U controller.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Guh, no anyway, that kind of tessellation is horrible like those emulator filters are horrible for pixel art.
Just releasing it in HD with AA, new lighting, etc would look way better than tessellating that way.
For good results you need it hand crafted and it's not worth the effort to them.
And if they're gonna handcraft then it doesn't matter if it can or can't tessellate, they could do normal maps, etc.
Might as well spend that effort on X instead.
I suppose if it takes place on the same world and what not a future remake could share assets but eh.
Just releasing it in HD with AA, new lighting, etc would look way better than tessellating that way.
For good results you need it hand crafted and it's not worth the effort to them.
And if they're gonna handcraft then it doesn't matter if it can or can't tessellate, they could do normal maps, etc.
Might as well spend that effort on X instead.
I suppose if it takes place on the same world and what not a future remake could share assets but eh.
R700 was the only GPU to ever use AMD's second generation tesselator. Nobody really knows what that thing is capable of, as it was only ever used in the March of the Froblins techdemo as far as I know. It was never detailed, let alone documented anywhere.
On the other hand, PICA200 features a tesselator as well, yet no 3DS game seems to use it. We'll see...
lostinblue
Banned
Those tesselation experiences have 8 years.
A lot of stuff changed; applying it on top a game would be like applying a filter, yes. But applying it directly you can choose which objects you want to protect or which edges you don't want to see messed upon. If that degree of control wasn't there then it would forever be an experimental tech. It's not, not anymore. Now the problem is applying it right as it's a new territory and nobody has real experience with it.
Could really improve a lot of games geometric assets without the need to remake them from the ground up; it's a waste not to use it that way.
It's probably like the PSP one, meant for 2D polygon rendering.
The 3DS one? Nope. It's for 3D. Primarily meant to reduce memory footprint and bandwidth requirements of 3D assets.
lostinblue
Banned
I see, then it seems to support compression (otherwise it would just bloat it). Interesting that such an obscure GPU seems to have implemented what ATi in 2005 hadn't.
That said, some games might indeed use it and we'll never know, I'm betting that if its reason for existing is reducing bandwidth usage then it's not there as a means to maximize LOD, so it should be less dynamic; that modified truform algorithm results I posted had limited divisions, it wasn't meant to turn OoT into a 5 million polygon game in any way; would worsen results too.
Then again, I'm thinking that such implementation, if for bandwidth reasons was also put at place due to the expectation of slow RAM, and 3DS has pretty good RAM for what it is.
freakzilla3000
Junior Member
INSANE!! Can't wait to hear more!
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Am I blind or is there no difference in those screenshots?
This
lostinblue
Banned
No.
Imperfect 8 year old tesselation based on 2002 algorithms, yes; same/no difference, no.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Stop showing it as an example if you're going to excuse how bad it is by its age. Show something better. I've never seen automatic tessellation processes that look good in similar scenarios. If you have, show us. All the good tessellation I've seen is the modern DX11 use where the developers still handcraft everything (or I guess in cases set certain material properties when it's stuff like the ground, bricks, etc, but you can't do that for characters and structures) like they had to do for normal maps, which again, takes a lot of effort and isn't something they'd do for a HD remaster of a game that didn't sell great to begin with. Things like this just cannot happen automatically/magically if the tessellated model wasn't done by an artist in that form.
No.
Imperfect 8 year old tesselation based on 2002 algorithms, yes; same/no difference, no.
I can see it. They become fatter with tesselation.
lostinblue
Banned
I would, but there's no other examples on older games; no one has tried to force it via emulation in recent year nor in remasters of old games.
And I don't think it looks bad considering how little polygons there are there in a N64 game and the whole point here being to round it out. Not to mention it being based on ancient tesselation algorithms (and I did it again).
And like I said, best application would be applied it to scenery, where you're not as picky as when recognizing a human form (my point was never applying it to characters actually; it was precisely that you could swap them for better ones and not apply Tesselation to them). And I'm obviously not suggesting results could be like those in the video, but still be a huge improvement for a blocky game. Tesselation is really about adding more polygons where it seems like they wanted to have more, it's a good thing.
I'm not advocating it's use like a filter, I'm saying Xenoblade game world could benefit a lot; this and better textures and it's a new game. Certainly better prospect for a HD remaster than leaving everything as is and calling it a day; and remaking a game with such a scope so soon would be silly.
Because they're so low polygon and it adds detail in a additive way rather than subtractive one.
Works better on the Mario 64 title screen face, because it has more polygons to it.
And you'll keep getting better results the more polygons you have going for it. N64 low polygon levels are hard to accurately interpret when you want to keep all fine detail needed for character model shapes (specially when applying it as a filter). But it's still a good proof of concept, because I have no other. (well, there's counter strike 1.6 but I'll digress)
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
So basically you're speculating it would look good.
Maybe that nobody's done it is another hint that it does look pretty awful and wastes tons of resources unless you handcraft.
Yeah, consoles couldn't do tessellation but what about all old 3D PC games? Nobody's "remastered" them like that.
Not to mention that even though consoles couldn't do tessellation you could use a tessellation-like method on PC to rework the assets then import their final form back in the games as normal so you could have the results in the console remasters too.
As for how it looks when you have more polygons, well, Xenoblade has few polygons. And anyway that's a very specific example. Not a complex character or environment with all sorts of different elements. Might as well show a sphere next. Sometimes you want angles and corners, not everything to be molded in curves and no algorithm could distinguish between a sword and an arm and a square pillar and a rounded one on its own.
Not to mention you need to keep in mind how the elements in game fit in with each other. Xenoblade characters wouldn't look good smoothed in a blocky environment, and vice versa. It's all or nothing. Most so far choose nothing thankfully.
To put it better, tessellation on its own isn't great. You need good displacement mapping over it to look good.
The middle part is what you get with tessellation, and it's not a good result (keeping in mind the first part isn't that bad in game obviously, they have the flat shading and wireframe done that way to emphasize the change, while this also is a very specific example where there are only organic parts and nothing else, not to mention the model itself was done with tessellation in mind so it has the polys right where they're needed for tessellation to work well), you need the third part for it.
gundalf
Member
The next ND is for WiiU 3rd Party Titles only.
Captain Smoker
Member
He didn't say this.
lostinblue
Banned
No, we both know enough of the tech and it's purpose so let's cut the chase.
I'm saying such examples look good enough taking the bloating glitches apart, and those can be controlled now if you have access to the game code, not to mention the tesselation unit has more detail to work with, for Xenoblade doesn't look like a N64 game. That eases things out, but on top of it all I'd never suggest it should be applied as a filter to everything and call it a job done.
I'm not speculating, I think it has the capability of looking good, more rounded out. But I'm keeping the character models out of it. Because you can tesselate some things alone.
Tesselating character models will always be hit and miss if simply forced, as for scenerarios not so much even if you have to enforce the original shape sometimes. (I'm thinking regular hexagon surfaces as it has the tendency to turn those into circles; which sometimes is as intended, some other not).
The bottom line is that I think this game could benefit from it.
I disagree, with emulation you're forcing it like a filter; it's like some MLAA applications, you're applying it on top of it all so it even goes for the HUD; in this case you have no control over the geometry it aplies to (geometry that you can't possibly swap too).
And you want it to be in control.
No one even tried since, not because of that but because it's new territory, tbh. And modifying a tesselation via CPU appliance is outdated as GPU's are supposed to be able to do it now in a comparably "resource free" method.
On scenery? not so much.
Character models are in the 1500/2000 polygons range, probably, still more than double the polygons character models in N64 games like Mario 64 and OoT had (and the joints are rigged, not separate which means more detail even whilst keeping the same polycount), but that's precisely my point. Do not apply to human character models as the results won't be magical. Swap those instead.
As for field graphics, I believe tesselation could make them look way better, yes. I also think that's what it's there for, adding detail to stuff lacking it. They just have to be careful in making sure everything works as intended.
Portugeezer
Member
I just went back and checked the Direct. He mentions he couldn't talk about 3DS, and that they will also provide more info about 3rd party on Wii U.
Zenaku
Member
You're off a little. Using Melia as an example, her default equipment has 2975 polygons, while one of her most popular equipment sets has 3789 polygons. That's in battle of course; cutscenes use slightly higher poly faces, with deeper mouths and eyelids.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I thought they have way less by how they look... How many triangles is Snake in MGS2 for comparison? He is 1631 in Peace Walker, double that in cut scenes. I guess Xenoblade's modelers didn't do a very good job, even considering the variable gear. Previously I was blaming the Wii for how they look, thinking they spent all its resources for the environments, but given the polycounts they could have looked as good as almost any other PS2/GC/Wii game's characters. Crystal Bearers included?
gamergirly
Member
So glad I preordered Xenoblade. It might end up as rare as Xenogears if Nintendo doesn't do a reprint
Zenaku
Member
I wouldn't know Snakes, but I could find out for Crystal bearers, if I can capture some models from it; Xenoblade is easy as I can import the models directly into Blender3D to check.
For both of the Melia examples, her head alone uses around 900 or so, with about 80 being used around the eye area. That's the in-battle no-eyelid version, mind. The rest of the face (forehead, nose, mouth, ears) uses 300 exactly.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Yeah, sure, if it's not too much trouble give us some Crystal Bearers comparisons. Player character and a couple other mains to make sure there aren't huge differences (there are in Peace Walker, Paz who is only seen in certain scenes, mostly just cut scenes, has 5x Snake's polycount, lol). They probably also have more detailed cut scene versions but they look great in game still. I wouldn't have even guessed the Xenoblade characters have modeled eyes, they look painted on...
Zenaku
Member
Yeah, the in-battle models I'm checking use textures for the eyes, and have very shallow mouths, but most of the main characters have slightly higher-poly faces for cutscenes, with fully modelled eyes and mouths. Not to the extent of some games, but enough for the pupils to move and the eyelids/mouth to open/close.
Melia's higher poly face uses 950, and that's not including the hair or other accessories. The main part, with the forehead, nose and mouth (and eyelids) is 816, a big step up from the 300 the lower-poly version has.
Melia's higher poly face uses 950, and that's not including the hair or other accessories. The main part, with the forehead, nose and mouth (and eyelids) is 816, a big step up from the 300 the lower-poly version has.
lostinblue
Banned
Ah, thanks for that!
I thought they were on the 1500/2000 polygon mark because 1500 is the magic number ingame field FFXII models were capped to (ingame different than cutscene models), add detailed fingers and mouths (albeit simple) outside of cutscenes that Xenoblade has at all times and you have 2000/2500 polygons easily. I figured they should be around the 2000 polygon mark though since it looked like they could take no more polygons off and still get away with it.
Xenoblade modeling is actually really good in my book, I mean, most japanese HD representations these days seem to take predefined a base head shape and just change the hairdo:
It's a one size fits all deal. Part of the problem is that differentiation is no longer needed on a basic basis; instead they differentiate by adding (kinda like how some mangaka/anime head shape's are mostly virtually the same for every character, it's the hair style and color plus some scar or differentiating feature that does the difference)
With Xenoblade though, they had to make them look different with little polygons, so not only are the hairstyles different but also Fiora, Sharla and Melia have very different nose shapes, with Fiora's not being exactly the ideal of beauty (her nose bridge is vertically straight when seen in profile) Sharla's being more rounded on the base when seen in profile and melia's being closer to the ideal of beauty alright.
It just striked me as refreshing to see such a differentiation on a basic level instead of "let's recycle a lot of the character models and just modify some stuff" like Gears of War always appeared to me for instance; "change some colors, hairdo and add some normal maps, keep the body bulk and head shape and call it a day".
Lots of character retained on such low polygon approach to the point one might wonder if it isn't best to start with such limitations in mind and then going up rather than taken it for granted and ignoring the need to differentiate. (to a certain extent this is true even for earlier 2D art seeing the inclusion of a moustache on Super Mario being added so the face looked right)
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Yeah, no, those face models differ at least as much as the differences you note in Xenoblade's characters... Nose, lips, eyes, cheekbones... And anyway two Square characters are hardly most Japanese HD representations or whatever.
You could probably do the same type of image with Layle or some random Kingdom Hearts character, all not HD.
You could probably do the same type of image with Layle or some random Kingdom Hearts character, all not HD.
lostinblue
Banned
I stand by what I've said, they're too similar and I'm not the only one criticizing.
You have a point though, it didn't start this generation nor is something only going for the HD types for sure, but if anything it did get worse this gen.
FF facial models a lot of the time seem like they were modified from something into something else, but only halfway as they thought the different style and zippers would suffice for a difference, it's as if something was used for a universal basis; Xenoblade seems to be way more customized in that regard; I mean the nose differences striked me as genius whereas FF is always trying to feed you perfect people with different hairdo's; and it has to be said but "perfect people" always have the same features mostly intact.
I actually screencapped my whole Xenoblade playthrough (yes, I'm a total nutter) I can finally use the darn shots for something!
Serious, and not just these character noses; noses in Xenoblade are so different with just a few polygons changing the overall shape it's just noteworthy (not just the noses, but the nose thing is a good set study IMO). They really help set characters apart and the fact they're often not perfect or the ideal of beauty but still existing shapes makes it like those series you see and all of a sudden not everyone is a super model picked solely for their universal beauty or name, for they have flaws and features that set them apart from a perfect picture (they aren't serial barbies anymore), and that just makes them more human and in fact... prettier. This taking the girly example I'm stating, but it rings true to Xenoblade 3D character model rendering as a whole, it just felt fresh to me.
I started of thinking "oh, Final Fantasy XII wannabe modeling, but not as good as facial features don't seem as refined, I mean what's with Fiora's nose? But other characters have it "perfect" so it can't be lack of skills nor lack of polygons..." and ended up liking it a lot; it just oozes character against all preconceptions I had; it really won me over.
Portugeezer
Member
The face shape looks very similar, but the eyes and hair really differentiate them.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Not seeing the use. More like the desire to show them, as I never said its characters look alike to need visual proof that they look in fact different (though you do overstate it). Just disputed that all HD Japanese characters look alike and your examples (why not show that girl vs the afro dude in XIII eh) for that statement (and so the theory that it's better to start low poly).
lostinblue
Banned
Not saying you did, I just like to elaborate on my points and felt I could elaborate further (I actually can relate with your points).
And I had the screencaps so... It was more of a love letter to Xenoblade than anything else; and I must have a nose fetish of some kind. (I actually tend to like features that set people apart from other people; it's a thing here)
As for the desire to show, no, I have very pretty pictures of the game as you might imagine (it's a pretty game alright) but only went for noses in profile here. I don't have the slightest inclination to post 5275 pictures anywhere online so I won't; but if I can use them to make a point I will.
That's a very photogenic polygonal butt if I ever saw one though, and a peace offering! (I hope)
Oh, and I don't think it's better for them to stay low polygon, hell no; not my point and it'll never be. I just think that kind of differentiation can steam from the fact they have limited resources so have to make the most of it, just like the sprite mention; low resolution and a limited color palette made it so that not only combinations were finite, but that it was important to be able to differentiate a whole deal with little amount of pixels. I don't think such representations look better than later ones, but I definitely think the fact they had to be so streamlined at first is part of the reason why so many of those designs still hold out today. It's about the "core" being intact instead of drowning it with detail from the get go and it ending up being undefined or forgetable; and I'm sure you can get awesome results by not having to deal with such limitations as well, but you have to go the extra mile in doing so; like going for the very different noses, mouth and eyes across all characters differentiation; stray away from the top model benchmark, make them flawedly human.
But of course being high polygon and retaining such features is better though. Of course it is; I wouldn't be saying I'd like to see Xenoblade HD with enhanced character models otherwise.
EDIT: Afro dude is besides the point, that's like pulling out a fat guy and saying "look, it's different", of course it is. Lightning still looks like Cloud with a wig and lipstick though (and we know her briefing was a female version of cloud) and other chicks are often just stereotypes being played upon and keeping the "perfect features", and I don't know whether if you were to downscale them to xenoblade levels they would retain much differentiation detail. That's what I'm talking about.
Xenoblade striked me as really fresh in that regard as in fact I disliked Fiora's nose at first, wondered why they didn't go for a standard nose (like the one Melia had, later on), then I realized it just intentionally broke the hardwired "ideal"; I feel the nose is just the tip of the iceberg here though as it's something easy to point out; it's just very well done as a whole IMO; even if it's low polygon as hell.
Not sure what the issue is. So you need to build the character with tesselation in mind in order for it to pay off? And? If only you used it on the main characters, it would still be worth it, as they are the ones in the picture most of the time. How much longer would it take a professional 3D artist/modeler to build a model like that? For a game that huge and costly, this will not be the issue. So i don't really understand why you would bring this up. Or are you guys only discussing tesselation in older games through emulation?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MzG6lDA1A0
35:40
I don't know if it's a separate Nintendo Direct or they will do a 3DS/WiiU Direct.
Annoyed Gamer said the third party direct will be in a few weeks, but I have no idea if he actually know's anything or he's just speculating.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Only discussing tessellation for a Xenoblade HD remaster, I dunno what confused you. Tessellation is obviously perfectly viable and more than that desirable for new games if the intended hardware can handle that. Redoing characters is I suppose viable, if we're talking main characters only, but that would only make the visuals less coherent and consistent, negating benefits.
Well, for starters, that this is a thread about a game yet to be released, and i didn't feel like going through all the posts about 20 year old games. So, that is what confused me
lostinblue
Banned
This started of as a suggestion for the prospect of "what if" they did a HD remaster of Xenoblade; remaking it as a whole would be silly so I suggested new/enhanced detail character models, retexturing and just applying Tesselation to the environments; of course there's glitches and shapes to be preserved so it can never be applied as a filter (as seen on those emulation examples) but would still make way more sense than having to touch up and remodel every polygonal asset in the game.
Not on the characters as is though, those should be replaced for better results; thankfully the bone rigging and animations are there so it's just a matter of making higher quality character models.
Me and Alextended disagree in the sense that he thinks it should only be used on games built for it, and modeling done from the ground up counting on it, and I believe that older games being remastered and enhanced can benefit a lot from it; as long as it's not applied blindlessly, that is.
My bad; I pulled it out as a proof of concept.Well, for starters, that this is a thread about a game yet to be released, and i didn't feel like going through all the posts about 20 year old games. So, that is what confused me
Mario 64 is only 17 years old, you know?
No problem, it didn't bother me, but i just wasn't sure if he was talking about tesselation in general or in a specific case.
Twilight Princess
Member
anyone else doesn't want to see monolith soft get nintendofied? as much as i love nintendo, i want monolith to stay largely independent.
What does this even mean? You do realize that Nintendo owns Monolith Soft, right?
Herb Alpert
Banned
has what you call "nintendification" ever happen?
lostinblue
Banned
I reckon, from past Iwata Asks that Nintendo doesn't really come in between outside development cultures like that; their supervising effort is to pull out the best game possible and for that they might demand stuff, but it's in the train of thought of keeping the core idea intact or adding to it.
With Xenoblade, Takahashi was actually ready to give up some features in order to comply with deadlines (and the fact the team was getting tired) it was Nintendo that maneuvered it around. Also, Monolith usually did games as a whole with resources going back and forth so having a estimated completion date was hard and Nintendo insisted that for Xenoblade they worked by sections, which they said helped a lot actually. Other than that, the only compromise Nintendo made them do was that they focused on plot concept before, and gameplay came as a secondary and with Nintendo they have to flesh out the gameplay (happened on Soma Bringer, first game they started work on without having a plot).
Nintendo doesn't want these studios to do the games they can do in-house. Thankfully.
What in Takahashi's name are you on about?
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