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[TheCongressman1]

This is probably the best initiative when it comes to implementing boost.

Did no one see this:

Here's what needs to happen to boost. It needs to not be an instant thing. If you are going fast enough, you can start boosting. That balances it out and makes it much more rewarding.

Also, when starting to boost it's at a slightly slower speed, and the longer you are able to keep it going the faster you get. This turns boost into something that can be used to play skillfully rather than something that is constantly expected out of the player.

I'm really curious if anyone else thinks this would work better. Any ideas?

And I would disagree.

Ok, why? What does boost add? How does it not end up hurting the overall design and gameplay?

 

[NotLiquid]

I just realized the picture was a ticket, xD that's what they get for trolling us XD

They're on a world tour dedicated to promoting Sonic World Adventure 2 and the Sonic plush is for recording a promotional campaign akin to the Japanese Sonic Adventure ads.

 

[qq more]

I'd completely forgotten that he actually liked them.

I know it's opinions and all and I try my best to respect some but I can NEVER wrap my mind around at how anyone can praise the mach speed sections and then hate boost so much.

I didn't mind how boosting was done in Colors. It was there, but it was limited, and the game structure wasn't designed around doing it all of the time like Unleashed (and to a lesser extent, Generations)

Colors did such a great job at how it handled boost. Collecting boost power via normal wisp capsules instead of rings was a great way to prevent abusing it.

 

[Professor Beef]

Ok, why? What does boost add? How does it not end up hurting the overall design and gameplay?

I think the Modern Sonic sections are much more enjoyable than the Classic Sonic sections BECAUSE of the high-speed and boosting. They nailed the formula, and I would love to have more of it. I think they should keep going in that direction and make levels around the entire thing. That's why I have such a gripe with so many of the Boost complaints mentioned so far; Sonic has finally started to have some damn good games, and people are trying to change the formula for absolutely no reason, or at least no GOOD one.

Boost gives you an incentive to keep playing those areas, and it makes them exciting. You have a reward incentive built-in where if you boost into enemies you're allowed to keep going. But if you boost blindly, then you risk dying or tripping over something and losing your momentum entirely.

I'm perfectly fine with the time trial-esque gameplay Colors and Generations brought to the table, and I want more. At least for Modern Sonic, the old-school gameplay simply doesn't work as well as people would like to think. I would rather Sega take the time to make Sonic 4's episodes play like the Classic Sonic sections in Generations (engine and all), since that would seem to make everyone happy. The farther away from the Adventure games' engine that Modern Sonic gets, the better.

 

[TheCongressman1]

I think the Modern Sonic sections are much more enjoyable than the Classic Sonic sections BECAUSE of the high-speed and boosting. They nailed the formula, and I would love to have more of it. I think they should keep going in that direction and make levels around the entire thing. That's why I have such a gripe with so many of the Boost complaints mentioned so far; Sonic has finally started to have some damn good games, and people are trying to change the formula for absolutely no reason, or at least no GOOD one.

Boost gives you an incentive to keep playing those areas, and it makes them exciting. You have a reward incentive built-in where if you boost into enemies you're allowed to keep going. But if you boost blindly, then you risk dying or tripping over something and losing your momentum entirely.

I'm perfectly fine with the time trial-esque gameplay Colors and Generations brought to the table, and I want more. At least for Modern Sonic, the old-school gameplay simply doesn't work as well as people would like to think. I would rather Sega take the time to make Sonic 4's episodes play like the Classic Sonic sections in Generations (engine and all), since that would seem to make everyone happy. The farther away from the Adventure games' engine that Modern Sonic gets, the better.

I'm not against the idea of boost, but the way it's implemented is awful. There is no real risk to using it. Almost every level is completely walled in, you can go right through enemies with it, and it's almost impossible to run out of the stuff. And you say losing your momentum? There is no momentum. Boost creates instant speed, breaking the concept of speed reward and preservation, something that Sonic was founded on.

 

[Guess Who]

yeah i mean imagine if the classic sonic games introduced some way of getting instant speed with no risk that let you just plow through enemies

 

[TheCongressman1]

yeah i mean imagine if the classic sonic games introduced some way of getting instant speed with no risk that let you just plow through enemies

Instant? You have to stop to use that. Boost lets you literally go from zero to top speed. Thanks for the smartass remark though.

 

[Meccanical]

Shit is about to get real.

 

[Zilch]

Sonic 06 tried that. You really wanna go back to that?

Anth0ny is forbidden to answer this question, btw.

And I would disagree.

I haven't played Sonic 06 but I was under the impression that the reason it's universally reviled has more to do with game-destroying bugs rather than gameplay choices. Wasn't the gameplay essentially a continuation of the stuff they were doing with the Adventure games? (Adventure was certainly flawed but it at least felt Sonic-esque to me, the new games look too much like Sonic Racing games)

 

[Professor Beef]

And you say losing your momentum? There is no momentum. Boost creates instant speed, breaking the concept of speed reward and preservation, something that Sonic was founded on.

You don't get all of your momentum back after getting hurt while boosting. You can get back to running speed fairly quickly, but it's not an instant 0 to 60. And god forbid if it happens while trying to get a good time/ranking, too.

 

[Guess Who]

Instant? You have to stop to use that. Boost lets you literally go from zero to top speed.

Oh, sorry, it's okay if it takes literally one second to press down and tap A a few times. Makes a world of difference.

 

[Professor Beef]

I haven't played Sonic 06 but I was under the impression that the reason it's universally reviled has more to do with game-destroying bugs rather than gameplay choices. Wasn't the gameplay essentially a continuation of the stuff they were doing with the Adventure games? (Adventure was certainly flawed but it at least felt Sonic-esque to me, the new games look too much like Sonic Racing games)

The Adventure games were pretty bad, or at the very least have not aged well whatsoever. Even without the bugs, I think the game would be below-average at best.

 

[NotLiquid]

Boost gives you an incentive to keep playing those areas, and it makes them exciting. You have a reward incentive built-in where if you boost into enemies you're allowed to keep going. But if you boost blindly, then you risk dying or tripping over something and losing your momentum entirely.

I'd like to consider this a half-full half-empty glass scenario since what you define as "rewarding" can very much also be described as "punishing". There's a case to be made that you don't have to boost through the entire levels but in Unleashed and Generations, this is what the entire level designs are based around, and using the boost creates that cheap thrill of excelling when in reality it's the way the designers hope for you to play. This is especially evident in Generations and Unleashed where you're actively given boost meter for every little thing, and once you let that mechanic turn into what is essentially a pseudo-necessity you're only left aggravated whenever an impossible-to-notice trap or pit stop breaks your flow.

The replay value, arguably, turns into trial-error speedrunning to a fault. Once you do that perfect run there's not much ways to go by playing it satisfyingly unless you consistently try replaying to shave off seconds in your score, or deliberately attempt to break the game through glitches.

Colors got it mostly right because it scaled down the speed and made the boost a virtue, but by using the game play mechanics that are largely boost-based, it required crippling some of it's key features. The power ups were a really nice addition but they were only possible because the game required taking your time in pacing with the game's more blocky and careful level design, so the question begs to answer that if we've had three games where little evolution has been done to a formula, who's to say that the high-speed game play is a good way to build upon?

I personally don't see that being something that can happen unless the games scale down the boost lest we play the exact same games but with additional levels every three years. Why should Sonic settle for merely "good"? I understand the developers wanting to play it safe and sticking to what's proven to be mildly successful, but I think now is a well good time for them to try upgrade the formula with what they've learned over the years.

 

[RagnarokX]

yeah i mean imagine if the classic sonic games introduced some way of getting instant speed with no risk that let you just plow through enemies

You have to stop to spindash. Also, rolling makes you go faster than running and impervious to non-spiky enemies at the cost of control. You can't just let go of a button and hit back to grind to a halt; you have to jump out of it. And even if we took your example for granted, how does that help the argument that boost is good? If classic Sonic levels were filled with really long sections where you just rolled the entire time they'd get shit, too. The levels weren't designed around the spindash, the spindash was a tool to help you out if you got stuck in an area where you couldn't get enough momentum to get out.

 

[TheCongressman1]

Oh, sorry, it's okay if it takes literally one second to press down and tap A a few times. Makes a world of difference.

What's with the sarcasm? Damn, I'm just trying to discuss this.

You don't get all of your momentum back after getting hurt while boosting. You can get back to running speed fairly quickly, but it's not an instant 0 to 60. And god forbid if it happens while trying to get a good time/ranking, too.

I see what you're saying, but think about if it took even more skill to use. In speedrunning I have noticed that getting a good time is based on a lot of little tiny details rather than bigger things like good platforming. It's usually about how you jump or whatever at the right time.

If boosting had more requirements and risks, players will find better ways to use it.

 

[Nocturnowl]

Sonic games never really adapted the momentum angle to the 3D titles with much success, take the Adventure games, spin dashes have to be popped back out of to retain the speed gained or else Sonic just slows to a crawl, but mostly the stages just plaster boost pads and springs all over the place to ensure that Sonic can keep some sense of speed going or even simply stick to the linear paths without flying off in the case of SA2.
Boost isn't perfect but it's worked out a lot better for speed than the Adventure approach of dash panels everywhere.

If we're talking about how boost works for 2D titles then that's a bit different though it's worth noting that the Rush games that originated the boost bar system have stage design that makes greater use of the boost function to the point where haphazard speed blitzing can easily trip you up or cost you meter needed for a stage obstacle.

 

[TheCongressman1]

If classic Sonic levels were filled with really long sections where you just rolled the entire time they'd get shit, too.

Precisely.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Shit is about to get real.

Congressman has been going on about open-world for years at this point. Open world Sonic! Open world Mario!

What is the fuckin' appeal?

 

[Professor Beef]

I see what you're saying, but think about if it took even more skill to use. In speedrunning I have noticed that getting a good time is based on a lot of little tiny details rather than bigger things like good platforming. It's usually about how you jump or whatever at the right time.

If boosting had more requirements and risks, players will find better ways to use it.

I'm mainly worried with them changing Sonic for the sake of change. I never want to go back to the Adventure days ever again. And while Sega has been making decent decisions as of late regarding Sonic, I don't completely trust them to NOT botch Sonic because someone on the internet wanted to see Tails again.

 

[Dereck]

Also, when starting to boost it's at a slightly slower speed, and the longer you are able to keep it going the faster you get. This turns boost into something that can be used to play skillfully rather than something that is constantly expected out of the player.

I'm really curious if anyone else thinks this would work better. Any ideas??

I'm not sure if I agree specifically, but this is definitely an interesting dynamic.

 

[Guess Who]

You have to stop to spindash. Also, rolling makes you go faster than running and impervious to non-spiky enemies at the cost of control. You can't just let go of a button and hit back to grind to a halt; you have to jump out of it. And even if we took your example for granted, how does that help the argument that boost is good? If classic Sonic levels were filled with really long sections where you just rolled the entire time they'd get shit, too.

You're all looking at it the wrong way. The idea that speed in a Sonic game is a reward for doing well was thrown out the window the moment they stuck the first horizontal red spring in a level, much less the speed boosters in various S2 and S3K levels. If you don't believe the spin dash is overpowered as a way of attaining speed, go watch a Sonic 2 speedrun and tell me the very first thing the player does on every single act.

Particularly in Unleashed and Generations (not so much Colors, where Wisps are the core mechanic), boost is a risk/reward tradeoff. The goal of the stage is to get the best score in the fastest time, and the boost is designed to enhance your speed at the cost of forcing you to react more quickly to oncoming obstacles. Sure, enemies cease being an obstacle. The level design itself is the obstacle - each wall you run into, each spike trap you don't quite avoid in time, each pit you fall down (notice in Unleashed, for instance, dying doesn't reset your timer and you respawn with no boost?) kills your momentum or take several seconds to recover from. Sure, once Sonic gets out of his damage animation, you can just boost back to full speed, but the damage has already been done. Being able to go from 0 to 60 instantly is not a bad thing unless you're wrongly trying to judge the worth of the mechanic by its contribution to the speed-as-a-reward philosophy, which is not what the modern games are designed around at all. Speed is the risk, a great time is the reward.

 

[Meccanical]

Congressman has been going on about open-world for years at this point. Open world Sonic! Open world Mario!

What is the fuckin' appeal?

I dunno man, we all have our kinks.

 

[qq more]

I wouldn't mind a Mario 64-type of open world to be honest. The question is whether SEGA is competent enough to pull it off.

 

[TheCongressman1]

I wouldn't mind a Mario 64-type of open world to be honest. The question is whether SEGA is competent enough to pull it off.

Only one way to find out.

Congressman has been going on about open-world for years at this point. Open world Sonic! Open world Mario!

Does this really bother you?

 

[qq more]

Why are you guys getting upset at each other :s

 

[TheCongressman1]

Why are you guys getting upset at each other :s

I'm not. I just hope no one is mad with me for some reason.

 

[Guess Who]

Sorry for being a bit rude, by the way, the high concentrations of cynicism formed inside me through years of Sonic community experience just cause an instinctual negative reaction to certain interpretations of classic Sonic game design.

 

[Meccanical]

Why are you guys getting upset at each other :s

At least we real about our emotions and don't hold back for nobody.

Sonic fans are the realest OG's.

Spoiler

>_>

 

[Anth0ny]

wait

i liked the mach speed segments?

wat

 

[qq more]

wait

i liked the mach speed segments?

wat

You said the radical train one was kind of fun! Don't lie to us!


if I'm wrong then my apologies

 

[Meccanical]

wait

i liked the mach speed segments?

wat

Anth0ny pls

 

[RagnarokX]

You're all looking at it the wrong way. The idea that speed in a Sonic game is a reward for doing well was thrown out the window the moment they stuck the first horizontal red spring in a level, much less the speed boosters in various S2 and S3K levels. If you don't believe the spin dash is overpowered as a way of attaining speed, go watch a Sonic 2 speedrun and tell me the very first thing the player does on every single act.

Particularly in Unleashed and Generations (not so much Colors, where Wisps are the core mechanic), boost is a risk/reward tradeoff. The goal of the stage is to get the best score in the fastest time, and the boost is designed to enhance your speed at the cost of forcing you to react more quickly to oncoming obstacles. Sure, enemies cease being an obstacle. The level design itself is the obstacle - each wall you run into, each spike trap you don't quite avoid in time, each pit you fall down (notice in Unleashed, for instance, dying doesn't reset your timer and you respawn with no boost?) kills your momentum or take several seconds to recover from. Sure, once Sonic gets out of his damage animation, you can just boost back to full speed, but the damage has already been done. Being able to go from 0 to 60 instantly is not a bad thing unless you're wrongly trying to judge the worth of the mechanic by its contribution to the speed-as-a-reward philosophy, which is not what the modern games are designed around at all. Speed is the risk, a great time is the reward.

Horizontal springs are not a common occurrence, and usually they bounce you the wrong way or change your direction so you can maintain the momentum you already had going into it in the opposite direction to follow the path you're on. In the rare occurrence where you could stop, run backwards, and hit a spring it would be as fast or faster to just run passed the spring. Speedboosters are an even rarer occurrence and are level-themed. Chemical Plant, Wing Fortress, Carnival Night, Launch Base, and Flying Battery have things that are (like) speedboosters, and even then they are sparsely used.

 

[Dark Schala]

wait

i liked the mach speed segments?

wat

I'm pulling your leg most of the time, you know. But I mostly remember this one:

Train Stage:

-Again, this isn't too bad. Having to prevent the train from crashing is kinda dumb, but it's basically a timer. Just had to pick it up a little. And hope to Christ I don't homing attack/glitch off a ledge. Luckily for me, I didn't.

-HOLY FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK THIS IS FAST. Another Mach Speed segment. I hit the jump button and flew 4 kilometres forward. Good god man.

Believe it or not, I beat it on the first try. So, so far, that's been the best mach speed segment. No running into shit, no random camera switches, just PURE SPEED. I've played Sonic Colors, I could deal with that.

Sorry for being a bit rude, by the way, the high concentrations of cynicism formed inside me through years of Sonic community experience just cause an instinctual negative reaction to certain interpretations of classic Sonic game design.

On the contrary; you're being rather cordial.

Also, when starting to boost it's at a slightly slower speed, and the longer you are able to keep it going the faster you get. This turns boost into something that can be used to play skillfully rather than something that is constantly expected out of the player.

I'm really curious if anyone else thinks this would work better. Any ideas?

I completely missed it; I'm sorry.

I think they tried to do this by introducing barriers to entry for using boost more often in Unleashed (where you had to level up), and Colours (where it was hard to find avenues to acquire more boosting power). Granted, it somewhat worked in Colours, but when you've leveled up in Unleashed you kinda get stuff like this (which, admittedly, is really cool to watch). I do think your proposal sounds really good on paper, but it's all in the matter of execution.

Will the level design facilitate such a thing (requiring more ramps and loops, etc). It sounds like you kind of want boost to work in a more traditional level design with 3D trappings (ie: getting faster and faster as you go through a loop or descend a ramp; harder to boost when you go up a hill or up a building, etc.). It works, but I wonder how Sonic Team could execute it.

 

[Marlowe89]

I'm gonna echo Professor Beef and Guess Who's sentiments. I absolutely loved the boost mechanic in Generations and thought it actually improved more than it harmed.

 

[qq more]

oh I guess I remembered it wrong


sorry Anth0ny

 

[Dark Schala]

oh I guess I remembered it wrong

sorry Anth0ny

Heh, I think we should just stop teasing him about it. Whatever. He likes it more than Colours just because of the novelty factor and I can respect that because I get it.

But no, for the most part, he really disliked them. I remember him using ;__; while describing one of them at one point.

 

[Guess Who]

Horizontal springs are not a common occurrence, and usually they bounce you the wrong way or change your direction so you can maintain the momentum you already had going into it in the opposite direction to follow the path you're on. In the rare occurrence where you could stop, run backwards, and hit a spring it would be as fast or faster to just run passed the spring. Speedboosters are an even rarer occurrence and are level-themed. Chemical Plant, Wing Fortress, Carnival Night, Launch Base, and Flying Battery have things that are (like) speedboosters, and even then they are sparsely used.

To really get in to the meat of the speed-as-a-reward argument here we need to look at how these things, among other traits, are used in the level design.

Classic Sonic games didn't just reward you with speed for managing momentum well. There's plenty of times when they'd just give you speed to break up slower-paced platforming segments. Look at Chemical Plant, for instance - there's practically no risk of getting hurt in the speed-oriented segments, and the speed is provided for you by huge slopes, horizontal springs, and the occasional booster. Whenever the game design wants to challenge you, it slows you down. This sort of design is commonplace in Sonic 2 and especially Sonic 3 and Knuckles. This, for example, is a particularly long stretch of Hydro City where the game just constantly gives you speed purely for the sake of flashiness with practically no risk of harm.

 

[RagnarokX]

To really get in to the meat of the speed-as-a-reward argument here we need to look at how these things, among other traits, are used in the level design.

Classic Sonic games didn't just reward you with speed for managing momentum well. There's plenty of times when they'd just give you speed to break up slower-paced platforming segments. Look at Chemical Plant, for instance - there's practically no risk of getting hurt in the speed-oriented segments, and the speed is provided for you by huge slopes, horizontal springs, and the occasional booster. Whenever the game designs wants to challenge you, it slows you down. This sort of design is commonplace in Sonic 2 and especially Sonic 3 and Knuckles. This, for example, is a particularly long stretch of Hydro City where the game just constantly gives you speed purely for the sake of flashiness with practically no risk of harm.

I'm well aware of classic level design. The fact is that those sections were always very brief and often rewarded you with a faster route through a ramp if you could keep your speed all the way through, or you might miss a faster route if you just rolled. Compare sections like that to the boost sections from Unleashed and Colors where you just boost nonstop in a straight line while sidestepping lasers. Starlight Carnival Act 1 might not start you off with boost, but it has one of the worst beginnings of a level in the franchise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjQPpWEXcOU

 

[Lijik]

Instant? You have to stop to use that. Boost lets you literally go from zero to top speed. Thanks for the smartass remark though.

Even with the stopgap time measure, it provides all of the benefits of boosting with no additional cost- Sonic can spindash anytime and doesnt have to collect rings/wisps to power it up. The "risk" of having to charge up is so small and tiny that it might as well be nonexistent. I cant think of a time where I felt at risk by using a spindash ever.

If classic Sonic levels were filled with really long sections where you just rolled the entire time they'd get shit, too.

They made one called Chemical Plant where you're mostly being propelled along by the game or just holding forward. When youre not, youre doing platforming underwater. Everyone inexplicably loves that one.

 

[Sciz]

Don't have the time to go into detail about the idea of speed as a reward, but it's a pretty nebulous concept. What is the player being rewarded for, exactly?

The levels weren't designed around the spindash, the spindash was a tool to help you out if you got stuck in an area where you couldn't get enough momentum to get out.

An area where you can't build up enough momentum to progress without spindashing is the definition of being designed around spindash. Sonic 2 and 3 are riddled with quarter pipes for exactly that reason.

Sorry for being a bit rude, by the way, the high concentrations of cynicism formed inside me through years of Sonic community experience just cause an instinctual negative reaction to certain interpretations of classic Sonic game design.

SonicGAF's pretty relaxed, despite being a complete grab bag of tastes and views.

 

[NotLiquid]

To really get in to the meat of the speed-as-a-reward argument here we need to look at how these things, among other traits, are used in the level design.

Classic Sonic games didn't just reward you with speed for managing momentum well. There's plenty of times when they'd just give you speed to break up slower-paced platforming segments. Look at Chemical Plant, for instance - there's practically no risk of getting hurt in the speed-oriented segments, and the speed is provided for you by huge slopes, horizontal springs, and the occasional booster. Whenever the game design wants to challenge you, it slows you down. This sort of design is commonplace in Sonic 2 and especially Sonic 3 and Knuckles. This, for example, is a particularly long stretch of Hydro City where the game just constantly gives you speed purely for the sake of flashiness with practically no risk of harm.

While I'm on the stance that the boost should be heavily crippled or altered, I actually agree a deal with you on this, and funnily enough, Sonic 2 is my least favorite of the Classics for those very reasons. That includes the fact that there's a monotonous amount of sludge to go around in Sonic 1.

It's probably the game which Dimps ended up taking most reference material when designing their Sonic games because structurally there's a ton of awful things such as bad enemy placement, poor late level design and the entirety of Metropolis Zone that's easily applicable to a good deal of their Sonic games which fall well below the mark.

 

[RagnarokX]

They made one called Chemical Plant where you're mostly being propelled along by the game or just holding forward. When youre not, youre doing platforming underwater. Everyone inexplicably loves that one.

Chemical Plant's speedy sections are nowhere near as bad as some of the modern Sonic ones, and not every level was Chemical Plant. Now you got boost pads in every level of modern Sonic.

An area where you can't build up enough momentum to progress without spindashing is the definition of being designed around spindash. Sonic 2 and 3 are riddled with quarter pipes for exactly that reason.

No, most of the time you can naturally run or roll through levels, but if if you stop for whatever reason bellow an up hill run to a loop and there is no ramp the other way to run up and down to build your momentum back up you're going to need to spindash. It's better than having to kill yourself, wait out the clock, or reset. Meanwhile modern Sonic levels have long stretches where you just boost through a bunch of enemies while you run a straight path.

 

[Kokonoe]

As a bonus note, when people ask for Super Mario 64-2, I'm certain they aren't meaning use 64 graphics and make it a 100% carbon copy of the original and do nothing to improve or change up with modern things.

Have you tried playing SA 1 or 2 recently? I was suckered into buying them on steam (Damn sales!), and they're just not that good. Yeah, they were cool the first time. I was also less than 10 years old the first time, and everything was cool.

The games are 4/6ths filler characters for SA1, where only tails was really done right, (Almost as fast as sonic, but taking a slightly different level path). The rest were mediocre "find the thing", "Go through this level really slowly", "another slow character with a gun", and "fishing" for knuckles/amy/E102/Big respectively.

Same goes for SA2 with Tails/Eggman and Rouge/Knuckles. Ugh.

None of those were remotely good ideas for a sonic game, and they range from hilariously forgettable to eye wateringly bad. It confuses me hugely that people blast things like the werehog for being horrible design choices that shouldn't be in a sonic game, but then turn around and give adventure 1/2 a free pass.

I have and I have played Adventure 1 a considerable amount of times over the years, and I recently just beat Sonic Adventure 2 on Steam (which by the way is a great port unlike the first port).

What you think is great and what I think is great can be different, remember these are all opinions in the end and if I were to question you specifically in a way in which would be like you're wrong for thinking something is great and that I think it's factually bad, you wouldn't care for that would you?

I could very well write up a list of complaints to anything as can anyone, but these are opinions.

 

[Sciz]

No, most of the time you can naturally run or roll through levels, but if if you stop for whatever reason bellow an up hill run to a loop and there is no ramp the other way to run up and down to build your momentum back up you're going to need to spindash. It's better than having to kill yourself, wait out the clock, or reset.

I'm having trouble thinking of any areas that fit this description where flat ground doesn't suffice and you only get one shot at running into it at high speed. Some stuff you can miss after large hills in CPZ, I guess, but those aren't reachable with spindash anyway.

 

[Sacul64]

Still have no idea what the fascination is with wanting Mario let alone Sonic to have a Super Mario 64 style. 64 was not really a platformer, it was a collectathon and not even the best one on the N64. The only levels that came close to traditional platforming was the Clock and Rainbow Ride (or was it called Rainbow Cruse?). The 3 Bower levels are basically what we have now with the galaxy games.

In sort there is no reason for Sonic game to take a step back and play like Mario 64. If anything they should continue bettering what they have now.

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

This is seriously an honest question.

I see SA1 too often cited as an unplayable, horrible game. I understand the Big portion is the most out of place segment, and that the visuals and VA's have aged (but how is this exclusive to SA in that era of 3D games?), but I can honestly pick it up today and effortlessly breeze through it as easily as I did in '99. There are some camera quirks and slowdown along the way sure, but not in a gamebreaking fashion. And definitely not to 06's caliber. The music is vibrant and catchy, the stages are varied and well paced, Adventure Fields are efficient and filled with secrets and connect the world cohesively, and sans Big and Gamma, all of the characters control similarly enough to offer an approachable variant to Sonic's gameplay. Even its 'epic' story mostly consists of an adventurous innocent glance through the perspectives of each character, all intertwining along the way. No moons are blown up, or characters shot or arrested. Everything is in the adventurous spirit of the characters and world.

I guess I just want to understand what categorizes this game as an atrocity, and why things like gameplay and visuals aging is condemns this game and not the thousands of other 3D games from the DC era and behind.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Super Mario 64 wasn't really a collectathon outside of the 100 coin challenges.

Collectathons are, like, gather 15 of these things laying around or hidden underwater or use the dig move in this spot and you get them. Donkey Kong 64 is a collectathon.

Stars in 3D Marios are basically objective markers. You're given one when you complete an objective, which sometimes can include getting to the top of somewhere, but more often is about doing something in a level. They just made convenient 3D objects to touch to signal the end of a level.

Would it still be considered a Collectathon if you touched a flagpole and you needed to beat eight stages to proceed to Bowser?

 

[DICKS AHOY]

This is seriously an honest question.

I see SA1 too often cited as an unplayable, horrible game. I understand the Big portion is the most out of place segment, and that the visuals and VA's have aged (but how is this exclusive to SA in that era of 3D games?), but I can honestly pick it up today and effortlessly breeze through it as easily as I did in '99. There are some camera quirks and slowdown along the way sure, but not in a gamebreaking fashion. And definitely not to 06's caliber. The music is vibrant and catchy, the stages are varied and well paced, Adventure Fields are efficient and filled with secrets and connect the world cohesively, and sans Big and Gamma, all of the characters control similarly enough to offer an approachable variant to Sonic's gameplay. Even its 'epic' story mostly consists of an adventurous innocent glance through the perspectives of each character, all intertwining along the way. No moons are blown up, or characters shot or arrested. Everything is in the adventurous spirit of the characters and world.

I guess I just want to understand what categorizes this game as an atrocity, and why things like gameplay and visuals aging is condemns this game and not the thousands of other 3D games from the DC era and behind.

I don't think the game is an atrocity; it's just aged badly and I can't help but feel another year or two of development would've given Sonic a much smoother transition into 3D.

As is I still feel it's very buggy, relies far too much on automatic segments for Sonic (annoying too since there's quite a few times I feel the physics by themselves would suffice; having a booster propel me up a hill I could've built up my speed to run up isn't as satisfying) and started a lot of trends which would wreck havoc in later games. I honestly think ST realized they wouldn't have enough time to polish and properly finish Sonic's core gameplay so they started throwing in boring extra modes like Big and Amy who could slowly pad the game out while reusing assets from Sonic's levels.

 

[Mango The Magician]

(btw this is my first post, hello, I wasn't sure if my account was activated or not so it's just been sitting here not being used! lol)

Anyways, I'd have to agree with those who don't want a open-world Sonic game. Correct me if I'm wrong (which there's a good chance I am) but all the obstacles in recent Sonic games have been based on very linear, but multiple, paths. i.e. it goes: 3D start, loop-de-loop, homing attack chain, 2D segment, rinse, repeat, and so on. So wouldn't a open-world design undermined what makes the levels the way they are?

(Also sorry for the grammar I'm on my Wii U.)

 

[R_thanatos]

there is nothing wrong with boost as it is now if it's limited properly in usage.
Many Modern of sonic generation actually make you go slower if you boost continually ..

Boost should be nerfed by the level design , not by removing it from existance.
that's why boosting in unleashed feel "cheap" while it's fun to use properly in generations.