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[Negotiator]

What if Sony agreed to collaborate with MS in regards to hardware and even share their RT secret sauce? Try to imagine this megaton for a second.

Maybe that was a requirement for the Azure partnership (we give you access to our network/cloud infrastructure, you give us access to your hardware, we both make common dev tools for easy porting, bring Game Pass on PS5 and make sure xCloud blades can also run PS4/PS5 games).

Sounds crazy, I know, but nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[quest]

Very unlikely unless sony goes 36CU lol In which case its going to be a 40 to 50% gap

I was talking the rumor of the ps5 being 30% more powerful. A 72 cu apu gets them 18-20% of the way there. I was asking where would the rest come from no way it be clocks. Was looking for a logical explanation.

 

[quest]

What if Sony agreed to collaborate with MS in regards to hardware and even share their RT secret sauce? Try to imagine this megaton for a second.

Maybe that was a requirement for the Azure partnership (we give you access to our network/cloud infrastructure, you give us access to your hardware, we both make common dev tools for easy porting, bring Game Pass on PS5 and make sure xCloud blades can also run PS4/PS5 games).

Sounds crazy, I know, but nothing surprises me anymore.

You really think there is a RT secret sauce? AMD does not have the money to get chips out on time let alone bolt on non AMD solutions to their GPUs or develop another RT core. Both consoles will have the same rdna 2 RT tech which will be certainly way behind nvidia's. I would not get your Hope's up for the RT you saw the 2000 titan produce. That will have 10x the RT of either console.

 

[Ovech-King]

I just can't get out of my head that post of the PS5 devkits part that leaked a month prior the Scarlett video and the latest rumor that claims PS5 is 25-30% more powerful. Even though I don't know sh*t , it make so much sense since out of the blue , those part models were so damn specific and now you see the Scarlett chips as Samsung HC14(Gbps) while the PS5 leaks parts are HC18(Gbps) .

Sound very credible too me , you just (almost) can't fake informations such as Samsung K4ZAF325BM and then you see that exact chip model in an official Xbox video

 

[demigod]

I just can't get out of my head that post of the PS5 devkits part that leaked a month prior the Scarlett video and the latest rumor that claims PS5 is 25-30% more powerful. Even though I don't know sh*t , it make so much sense since out of the blue , those part models were so damn specific and now you see the Scarlett chips as Samsung HC14(Gbps) while the PS5 leaks parts are HC18(Gbps) .

Sound very credible too me , you just (almost) can't fake informations such as Samsung K4ZAF325BM and then you see that exact chip model in an official Xbox video

Were those chips used elsewhere?

 

[Ovech-King]

Were those chips used elsewhere?

No idea, just found that Ethomaz (user here) mentionned those chips back in January in a discussion... maybe he's trolling us haha

 

[SonGoku]

I was talking the rumor of the ps5 being 30% more powerful. A 72 cu apu gets them 18-20% of the way there. I was asking where would the rest come from no way it be clocks. Was looking for a logical explanation.

I don't think its possible.
It would have to be 10 vs 13TF or 11 vs 14.2TF

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

I have to admit, it would be pretty crazy if MS fail to even reach the low bar of the 12.9 fake leak.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Spoiler: Bigger shots

12 chips
4 more are on the bottom, shown in the first picture showcasing the SOC
So 24GB GDDR6 assuming 16Gbit (2GB) chips
24 GB of GDDR6 with 384 bits bus


In 2016 Microsoft showcased a render of the Xbox One X's board while the system was in development and the number of chips were able to match up with the number of chips the retail system has. Keep in mind things may be subject to change

The green motherboard was the Xbox One X. The Blue motherboard was Scarlet.

 

[CrustyBritches]

I just can't get out of my head that post of the PS5 devkits part that leaked a month prior the Scarlett video and the latest rumor that claims PS5 is 25-30% more powerful. Even though I don't know sh*t , it make so much sense since out of the blue , those part models were so damn specific and now you see the Scarlett chips as Samsung HC14(Gbps) while the PS5 leaks parts are HC18(Gbps) .

Sound very credible too me , you just (almost) can't fake informations such as Samsung K4ZAF325BM and then you see that exact chip model in an official Xbox video

Was this the leak? (Reddit OQA Leak)


This was oddly specific. That's a 315mm² die size. What was DF speculating on that front? I'll have to watch the vid again. Those are 2GB modules for RAM, so 32GB GDDR6...maybe dev kit and 16GB final?

*edit* Best I could find for 8-core Ryzen 3000 chiplet is ~80mm², so DF might think ~330mm²?

 

[ethomaz]

What that even means?

 

[Fake]

What that even means?

Next next gen

 

[SonGoku]

The green motherboard was the Xbox One X. The Blue motherboard was Scarlet.

Someone mentioned this before
where is the blue mb? i don't see it lol

Was this the leak? (Reddit OQA Leak)


This was oddly specific. That's a 315mm² die size. What was DF speculating on that front? I'll have to watch the vid again. Those are 2GB modules for RAM, so 32GB GDDR6...maybe dev kit and 16GB final?

This leak (along with gonzolo) spawned the 36CU meme

 

[Fake]

Someone mentioned this before
where is the blue mb? i don't see it lol

Indeed have a blue mb in some part of the video.

 

[CrustyBritches]

This leak (along with gonzolo) spawned the 36CU meme

These are the best leaks, too.

 

[demigod]

What that even means?

He received death threats or some shit for putting out the rumor he heard about ps5 being more powerful. He has new info but he’s not going to share it because of that. People are speculating that if it was positive xbox news he would’ve shared it to quiet the crowd but it’s probably ps5 news instead. Thats what a gathered, don’t shoot the messenger(me).

 

[TLZ]

Sony fanboys attacking MS fanboys, MS fanboys attacking Sony fanboys, Amd fanboys attacking Nvidia fanboys and Nvidia fanboys attacking Amd fanboys. And im here just sitting hoping that both consoles get the best possible hardware there is and push some amazing visual that will also help the pc visuals. I will get both systems and upgrade my PC like i did this gen, just enjoy the games instead of enjoying failures of others. Insulting each other for multi billion dollar companys is really not gonna get you anywhere. I really hope that those consoles are exact the same with just different logo's on them, otherwise this place is gonna be a mess in the coming 5 years. Anyway those consoles are really looking good with ray tracing and ssd, its more than i expected.

Streaming Fanboys, soon at your nearest theater.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Someone mentioned this before
where is the blue mb? i don't see it lol

This leak (along with gonzolo) spawned the 36CU meme

Yeah I saw that after scrolling through the thread. The blue motherboard is on the left in the same shot. A magnifying glass covered the processor and RAM configurations pretty well.

 

[bitbydeath]

 

[quest]

What that even means?

Scarlet loses by even more than 30% would be the only thing it could mean. Implying scarlet based on small navi and ps5 on big navi cu count wise. That he does not want to be the messenger and get the wrath of the fan boys. Big news to backup but if true basically anaconda was scrapped for a suped up lockheart.

 

[Ovech-King]

Was this the leak? (Reddit OQA Leak)


This was oddly specific. That's a 315mm² die size. What was DF speculating on that front? I'll have to watch the vid again. Those are 2GB modules for RAM, so 32GB GDDR6...maybe dev kit and 16GB final?

Seems like Ps5 may end up being at ???Gb gddr6 18Gpbs since Scarlett seems to be visually confirmed 4 x 3 2gb chips so 24gb Gddr6 at 14Gbps

Just to quote the capabilities of 18Gbps chips from the web : "Samsung is now mass producing new GDDR6 memory uses 16 Gb dies (2 GB) featuring pin speeds of 18 Gbps (gigabits-per-second) and is able to hit data transfer speeds of up to 72 GB/s per chip."

Put Scarlett bandwidth at 672Gb/s
(54Gb/s per chip) and PS5 at either 576Gb/s if 16Gb ram or if we are lucky 864Gb/s at 24 Gb of ram ... That's a gap of about 30% (wink wink) between the two platform at 24 Gb of ram....!

Lisa Su said Cerny is planning the ps5 for the next ten years , it wouldn't surprise me if they go at 24gb

 

[CrustyBritches]

Seems like Ps5 may end up being at ???Gb gddr6 18Gpbs since Scarlett seems to be visually confirmed 4 x 3 2gb chips so 24gb Gddr6 at 14Gbps

If that's a 32GB dev kit I'd guess 16GB retail. Probably on 256-bit bus compared to whatever Xbox is using(possibly 384-bit). There's some discussion that it could be mixed memory modules and something like 18-24GB. Maybe somebody else could chime in on this?

That 315mm² APU seems smaller than expected with ~80mm² Zen 2 8-core chiplet size. Wonder if they reduced the L3 cache? Would a console necessarily need 32MB L3 since they said they doubled it to help with max single-thread performance on desktop chip? Don't necessarily need that with lower clocks and more granular control on consoles.

 

[Ovech-King]

That 315mm² APU seems smaller than expected with ~80mm² Zen 2 8-core chiplet size. Wonder if they reduced the L3 cache? Would a console necessarily need 32MB L3 since they said they doubled it to help with max single-thread performance on desktop chip? Don't necessarily need that with lower clocks and more granular control on consoles.

I don't worry much about the cpu as long as it's above 3Ghz frequency. The thing that held back fps as you know so far has been clock speed and not cores counts for instance . For all the PC gaming benchmarks I've seen in the past , fps only started taking a hit under that barrier whatever the cpu specs were including cache .

 

[ArabianPrynce]

Someone mentioned this before
where is the blue mb? i don't see it lol

This leak (along with gonzolo) spawned the 36CU meme

Damn how do you feel about your 64 cu theory? Are tflops really that important? dont know much about tech but i assume there is more to it. But i dont know sony or ms are setteling for less tflops that are too close to their pro counter parts.

 

[ethomaz]

Damn how do you feel about your 64 cu theory? Are tflops really that important? dont know much about tech but i assume there is more to it. But i dont know sony or ms are setteling for less tflops that are too close to their pro counter parts.

More TFLOPS more future proof it is.

You need to remember a console will need to run games for 6-7 years before a new gen arrives.

 

[SonGoku]

Damn how do you feel about your 64 cu theory? Are tflops really that important? dont know much about tech but i assume there is more to it. But i dont know sony or ms are setteling for less tflops that are too close to their pro counter parts.

11TF baseline, i really don't see either of them going lower than 64

More TFLOPS more future proof it is.

Yeah especially taking into account both 4k and rt resource hogs

 

[ArabianPrynce]

Can somone explain to me the difference between gddr6 and hbm 2

 

[Aceofspades]

Can somone explain to me the difference between gddr6 and hbm 2

Both achieve similar bandwidth speeds (in the same range anyways depending on the amount of Ram) I think GDDR6 is faster than HBM2, but not HBM3.

HBM has lower power draw which can be huge when designing a chip.

HBM is way more expensive, but has better cost scaling in the future.

 

[ArabianPrynce]

Both achieve similar bandwidth speeds (in the same range anyways depending on the amount of Ram) I think GDDR6 is faster than HBM2, but not HBM3.

HBM has lower power draw which can be huge when designing a chip.

HBM is way more expensive, but has better cost scaling in the future.

Why do you mean by this?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Why do you mean by this?

That to provide same or greater levels of bandwidth, the memory and I/O solution in HBM consumes less power than if you implemented the same specs with GDDR6.

 

[Aceofspades]

Why do you mean by this?

They consume less power, and also emit less heat. For example you want to design a chip with 200 TDP and you have a choice between Gddr6 and Hbm2 all else equal:

• GDDR6: 30w
• CPU: 30w
• GPU: 140w

Or

• HBM2: 15w
• CPU: 30w
• GPU: 155w

Notice how we could get better gpu within our budget. Add to that HBM has less heating , so you don't have to design expensive cooling for the system.

Edit: also HBM can be stacked and they occupy less space on the board.

 

[FranXico]

They consume less power, and also emit less heat. For example you want to design a chip with 200 TDP and you have a choice between Gddr6 and Hbm2 all else equal:

• GDDR6: 30w
• CPU: 30w
• GPU: 140w

Or

• HBM2: 15w
• CPU: 30w
• GPU: 155w

Notice how we could get better gpu within our budget. Add to that HBM has less heating , so you don't have to design expensive cooling for the system.

Edit: also HBM can be stacked and they occupy less space on the board.

Isn't HBM2 or HBM3 more expensive than GDDR6 though? Might offset the cooling system cost.

 

[Aceofspades]

Isn't HBM2 or HBM3 more expensive than GDDR6 though? Might offset the cooling system cost.

Yes, they are more expensive now, but have better cost scaling as the gen progresses. Im one of those who wish that PS5 might implement HBM memory over Gddr6 then go ham with the Gpu.

 

[TeamGhobad]

I have to admit, it would be pretty crazy if MS fail to even reach the low bar of the 12.9 fake leak.

navi tflops are much better than vega/polaris

 

[TeamGhobad]

They consume less power, and also emit less heat. For example you want to design a chip with 200 TDP and you have a choice between Gddr6 and Hbm2 all else equal:

• GDDR6: 30w
• CPU: 30w
• GPU: 140w

Or

• HBM2: 15w
• CPU: 30w
• GPU: 155w

Notice how we could get better gpu within our budget. Add to that HBM has less heating , so you don't have to design expensive cooling for the system.

Edit: also HBM can be stacked and they occupy less space on the board.

also hbm is low latency and gddr6 is very high latency.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Looks like Komachi is saying that Navi10Lite has 2 GFX IDs, which on Vega meant HBCC active, meaning possible HBM2. That would be intriguing.

 

[TeamGhobad]

Looks like Komachi is saying that Navi10Lite has 2 GFX IDs, which on Vega meant HBCC active, meaning possible HBM2. That would be intriguing.

rumors were that they were buying cheaper binned hbm2

 

[CrustyBritches]

rumors were that they were buying cheaper binned hbm2

I'm having a hell of a time tracking down that original Reddit rumor about the HBM2+DDR4, do you know where to find it by chance?

 

[TeamGhobad]

I'm having a hell of a time tracking down that original Reddit rumor about the HBM2+DDR4, do you know where to find it by chance?

??

 

[Burrito Bandito]

ps5 30% more powerful? lol.

MS colossally fuked up last gen with this, i seriously doubt they would commit market suicide by doing it again. i will believe it when I see it.

 

[TeamGhobad]

 

[CrustyBritches]

??

That's a lot of heavy reading.

I don't know if this was the exact leak yet, but so much good info in there. He speculates that you need memory bandwidth of ~460GB/s for just the GPU based on the rumored 1.8GHz PS5 clock speed. He speculates that 12gbps and 14gbps GDDR6 on 256-bit bus fall short with 392GB/s and 448GB/s GPU bandwidth.

Says 14gbps GDDR6 on 384-bit bus yields 616GB/s bandwidth for GPU. As Ovech-King mentioned, the Scarlett mobo shots show "HC-14" designation.

The OQA leak states "16 HC-18". If that's on 256-bit bus I believe it will yield 504GB/s for GPU by your Reddit article author's table.


Very interesting, indeed.

 

[TeamGhobad]

this means anaconda has a bigger soc

 

[Panajev2001a]

?

 

[Aceofspades]

Does using HBM2 reduce the size of SoC compared to Gddr6?

PS5 with 320mm Soc vs Anaconda 380mm will lend some creditability to HBM rumor for PS5

 

[CrustyBritches]

?

Komachi tweet with updated Navi/Vega GPU table. Says Navi10Lite has 2 GFX IDs, which on Vega indicate HBCC enabled, possible HBM2.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Komachi tweet with updated Navi/Vega GPU table. Says Navi10Lite has 2 GFX IDs, which on Vega indicate HBCC enabled, possible HBM2.

How does it relate to “this means anaconda has a bigger soc”?

How confident are we that a holiday 2020 PS5 is the Navi10 Lite we are talking about?

 

[Ar¢tos]

ps5 30% more powerful? lol.

MS colossally fuked up last gen with this, i seriously doubt they would commit market suicide by doing it again. i will believe it when I see it.

The possible introduction of HW for RT will lead to a situation where it becomes hard to judge which console is more powerful just by comparing TFlops count.
We can have things like this happening (numbers are examples only!) :
- PS5 with 14tf + light RT capability hw
- Xbox "whatever" with 12tf + medium RT capability hw

Power comparisons become split in two groups: Games using the RT hw, games not using the RT hw.

Both will be the more powerful and the less powerful at the same time, depending on the game being compared.

 

[Shmunter]

If 30% advantage to PS5 is legit, does it mean we will again have a vacuum cleaner vs a quif?

Whatever transpires, Sony better build some quality cooling.

 

[CrustyBritches]

How does it relate to “this means anaconda has a bigger soc”?

How confident are we that a holiday 2020 PS5 is the Navi10 Lite we are talking about?

Oh I thought that was just general "?", I didn't realize it was related to Ghobad's post. We'll have to ask him.

Komachi is pretty sure it's a console. As far as Gonzalo, I'm convinced that's a console, and most likely PS5. Somebody tied the PCI-e id from Gonzalo to "Navi10Lite". The tweet throws a spin on things because I had assumed GDDR6 in light of the OQA leak, but Komachi's new tweet opens up the possibility it's HBM2+DDR4.

I'm still hoping to find the exact source of that binned HBM2 rumor with 8GB HBM2 + 16GB DDR4 config. Still skimming the links Ghobad gave me. Might finish tomorrow I'm about to get high and play Metro Exodus.