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[Evilms]

Does using HBM2 reduce the size of SoC compared to Gddr6?

PS5 with 320mm Soc vs Anaconda 380mm will lend some creditability to HBM rumor for PS5

HBM memory is more expensive than GDDR and does not perform better in gaming than gddr, I strongly doubt that Sony will choose this choice which will only increase the invoice unnecessarily.

GDDR6 VS HBM2 Memory - TechSiting

Both GDDR6 and HBM2 are types of memory that enable processors to perform better in a wide variety of applications due to their high memory bandwidth. In this

www.techsiting.com

 

[-kb-]

HBM memory is more expensive than GDDR and does not perform better in gaming than gddr, I strongly doubt that Sony will choose this choice which will only increase the invoice unnecessarily.

GDDR6 VS HBM2 Memory - TechSiting

Both GDDR6 and HBM2 are types of memory that enable processors to perform better in a wide variety of applications due to their high memory bandwidth. In this

www.techsiting.com

My understanding is that HBM is meant to have better latency. If that is so at the same bandwidth it should perform better for operations that benefit from low latency (such as reading and writing lots of buffers that are bigger than cache).

 

[Aceofspades]

HBM memory is more expensive than GDDR and does not perform better in gaming than gddr, I strongly doubt that Sony will choose this choice which will only increase the invoice unnecessarily.

GDDR6 VS HBM2 Memory - TechSiting

Both GDDR6 and HBM2 are types of memory that enable processors to perform better in a wide variety of applications due to their high memory bandwidth. In this

www.techsiting.com

Your link doesn't support your argument that Gddr6 is better. It said that Hbm can offer higher bandwidth, is using less power , main con is being expensive to produce.

Edit: back to our topic, why I feel like HBM is better suited for consoles is that it uses way less power than Gddr6. Almost 4x less, which in a closed system is huge so the manufacturer can allocate the power budget somewhere else (GPU) .

 

[Evilms]

Your link doesn't support your argument that Gddr6 is better. It said that Hbm can offer higher bandwidth, is using less power , main con is being expensive to produce.

Edit: back to our topic, why I feel like HBM is better suited for consoles is that it uses way less power than Gddr6. Almost 4x less, which in a closed system is huge so the manufacturer can allocate the power budget somewhere else (GPU) .

The bandwidth does not do everything, RX Vega 56/64 is hbm2 Radeon VII from HBM2 and yet they get busted by the GTX 10 series GDDR5X or RTX 20 in GDDR6 so I maintain what I said, HBM is expensive and unnecessary for purely video game use.

 

[Aceofspades]

The bandwidth does not do everything, RX Vega 56/64 is hbm2 Radeon VII from HBM2 and yet they get busted by the GTX 10 series GDDR5X or RTX 20 in GDDR6 so I maintain what I said, HBM is expensive and unnecessary for purely video game use.

I agree with the bolded, BW is not everything. But power/heat can influence the design of a console.

Notice that the examples you used are of a discreet gaming GPUs not closed system boxes like a consoles.

Also their is a reason why the highest end products out of both AMD and Nvidia are using HBM and not Gddr6.

 

[-kb-]

The bandwidth does not do everything, RX Vega 56/64 is hbm2 Radeon VII from HBM2 and yet they get busted by the GTX 10 series GDDR5X or RTX 20 in GDDR6 so I maintain what I said, HBM is expensive and unnecessary for purely video game use.

Theres a big difference between consoles and desktops though. It is unlikely that desktop cards that have HBM will have the advantages leveraged much because those advantages don't exist on the vast majority of video cards. On a console developers could easily leverage the advantages HBM brings.

 

[DanielsM]

I'm assuming with the SSD solution that increased RAM would have little to no benefit? So, is it possible for a sub 16gb RAM solution PS5?

 

[Evilms]

Professional GPUs make use of HBM.
Gaming GPUs make use of GDDR.

 

[DanielsM]

Professional GPUs make use of HBM.
Gaming GPUs make use of GDDR.

How low can you go on GDDR? I'm assuming anything over 12gb could be overkill.

 

[Evilms]

How low can you go on GDDR? I'm assuming anything over 12gb could be overkill.

To my knowledge 24 GB of GDDR6 is possible since it already exists but it's really expensive right now.

NVIDIA TITAN RTX is Here

The fastest PC graphics card ever built. Only from NVIDIA.

www.nvidia.com

 

[-kb-]

I'm assuming with the SSD solution that increased RAM would have little to no benefit? So, is it possible for a sub 16gb RAM solution PS5?

That all depends on how much RAM you need and how often you need to seek to the disk and if you could even avoid seeking with more RAM. A SSD is still vastly slower in both bandwidth and latency compared to actual DRAM.

 

[DanielsM]

To my knowledge 24 GB of GDDR6 is possible since it already exists but it's really expensive right now.

NVIDIA TITAN RTX is Here

The fastest PC graphics card ever built. Only from NVIDIA.

www.nvidia.com

But why? (with the SSD sitting there and assuming it can feed at a great enough rate) It was actually a comment I saw on reddit last week. They guy was like why do devs really need more then 8gb to play in? I'm looking at it from a power consumption savings standpoint, meaning anyone can make a console which can rival the latest PC graphics cards, but they can't do it at a total system consumption of 150-200w.

 

[Bigarmsbigguns]

Can't wait to open my lootboxes in 8k 120fps, gonna be lit af, boys.

 

[JLMC469]

More TFLOPS more future proof it is.

You need to remember a console will need to run games for 6-7 years before a new gen arrives.

To be fair, we are most likely getting a “pro” version of this consoles in year 3 or 4.

 

[Panajev2001a]

HBM memory is more expensive than GDDR and does not perform better in gaming than gddr, I strongly doubt that Sony will choose this choice which will only increase the invoice unnecessarily.

GDDR6 VS HBM2 Memory - TechSiting

Both GDDR6 and HBM2 are types of memory that enable processors to perform better in a wide variety of applications due to their high memory bandwidth. In this

www.techsiting.com

HBM2 can deliver the same bandwidth at a lower power consumption and PCB complexity, the higher the bandwidth goes the worse it gets for GDDR6. GDDR6 is cheaper if you can afford the power consumption and extra board complexity.

 

[TeamGhobad]

To be fair, we are most likely getting a “pro” version of this consoles in year 3 or 4.

i dont think so. no reason to go "pro" whatever the specs are they will be more than enough for 4k60. the fight is solely over bragging rights right now.

 

[pawel86ck]

That is wrong, PS4 has 2 GCP.

Really? So can you link article or PS4 diagram where people can read about it, because so far all informations I have read mention one command processor in PS4 GPU, not two.

Here's Polaris RX 480 diagram and it show just one command processor

Here's Xbox X SOC diagram and you can see 2x command processors

 

[ethomaz]

Looking at that table in that way...

LITE probably means the normal version of the chip with units disabled.... each one has a Lite version so like RX 5700 XT (Navi 10) and RX 5700 (Navi 10 Lite).

 

[ethomaz]

Really? So can you link article or PS4 diagram where people can read about it, because so far all informations I have read mention one command processor in PS4 GPU, not two.

Here's Polaris RX 480 diagram and it show just one command processor

Here's Xbox X SOC diagram and you can see 2x command processors

RX 480 has half of the ACE of PS4 too.

I believe PS4 has only one GPC.

 

[Imtjnotu]

How low can you go on GDDR? I'm assuming anything over 12gb could be overkill.

Looking at that table in that way...

LITE probably means the normal version of the chip with units disabled.... each one has a Lite version so like RX 5700 XT (Navi 10) and RX 5700 (Navi 10 Lite).

None of these are making any sense to me.

 

[ethomaz]

None of these are making any sense to me.

It makes to me.

It shows AMD will release three Navi 10 cards, two Navi 12 cards, one Navi 14 cards and two Navi 21 cards.

Relating these codes with console is what doesn't make sense.

 

[ArabianPrynce]

11TF baseline, i really don't see either of them going lower than 64

Yeah especially taking into account both 4k and rt resource hogs

What do you think of this?

Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA OT

First off you can't just throw in more CUs and call t a day. Secondly, the CU count is really irrelevant when you consider the fact that the GPU clocks are about 2x more than the GPU clocks in 2013. Anyways the issue here is power consumption. That power consumption limits them to anywhere...

www.resetera.com

 

[ethomaz]

BTW somebody on ERA things the Lite means versions with units disabled.

Could it be console? Yes.
Could it be PC cards? Yes.
Could it be both? Yes.

The tables show three Navi 10 versions and AMD launched only two chip versions: RX 5700 and RX 5700 XT.
There is one more chip not launched yet.

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

Any disclosures been made about using Heterogeneous System Architecture yet?

HSA Foundation lists Sony as a contributor.

Seems like a good fit for improving console performance. Appears to be some PS4 legacy there too.

 

[ArabianPrynce]

Don’t know if it’s me this forum is more optimistic about specs in comparison to era

 

[LordOfChaos]

fwiw, biggest TSMC 7nm chip ever

Xilinx Starts Sampling 7nm Versal FPGA

Xilinx announced it has shipped its 7nm Versal FPGA (aka ACAP) to its Tier 1 customers and that general availability comes in the second half. Specifications of the first two series are also available.

www.tomshardware.com

“Having our first Versal ACAP silicon back from TSMC ahead of schedule and shipping to early access customers is a historic milestone and engineering accomplishment. It is the culmination of many years of software and hardware investments and everything we’ve learned about architectures over the past 35 years. The Versal ACAP is a major technology disruption and will help spark a new era of heterogeneous compute acceleration for any application and any developer.”

50 billion transistors!!

 

[Imtjnotu]

It makes to me.

It shows AMD will release three Navi 10 cards, two Navi 12 cards, one Navi 14 cards and two Navi 21 cards.

Relating these codes with console is what doesn't make sense.

No I got all that but I couldn't find anything console related.

 

[Bogroll]

PS5 will ALWAYS be more powerful because it has the power of Dreams©
Petaflops of Neverending creativity flowing from users directly to Sony HQ, it will be unstoppable!!

It's a good thing Saddam Hussain not around anymore else the world would cease to exist when PS5 is released

 

[Imtjnotu]

Any disclosures been made about using Heterogeneous System Architecture yet?

HSA Foundation lists Sony as a contributor.

Seems like a good fit for improving console performance. Appears to be some PS4 legacy there too.

I think hsa had an issue with amd never supporting it on the software side. I thought ps4 used some sort of hsa with garlic and onion but it's been forever since reading into it

 

[Negotiator]

I think hsa had an issue with amd never supporting it on the software side. I thought ps4 used some sort of hsa with garlic and onion but it's been forever since reading into it

HSA and hUMA are supported on consoles, because they have a custom software stack (OS + drivers + games) and there's no need for backwards compatibility with old software (since they're not IBM PC compatible), but not on regular PCs (AMD APUs pretend to be discrete CPU & GPU with discrete RAM pools via BIOS emulation).

HSA is old news though, HBCC is the new buzzword in town...

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

I think hsa had an issue with amd never supporting it on the software side. I thought ps4 used some sort of hsa with garlic and onion but it's been forever since reading into it

I imagine either console could use it.

Maybe it's a bet that did or didn't pay off?

 

[Evilms]

NV_NAVI10_P_A0 = 1,

NV_NAVI12_P_A0 = 10,

NV_NAVI14_M_A0 = 20,

NV_NAVI21_P_A0 = 40,

NV_NAVI10_LITE_P_A0 = 0x80,

NV_NAVI10_LITE_P_B0 = 0x81,

NV_NAVI12_LITE_P_A0 = 0x82,

NV_NAVI21_LITE_P_A0 = 0x90,

NV_UNKNOWN = 0xFF

 

[LordOfChaos]

NV_NAVI10_P_A0 = 1,

NV_NAVI12_P_A0 = 10,

NV_NAVI14_M_A0 = 20,

NV_NAVI21_P_A0 = 40,

NV_NAVI10_LITE_P_A0 = 0x80,

NV_NAVI10_LITE_P_B0 = 0x81,

NV_NAVI12_LITE_P_A0 = 0x82,

NV_NAVI21_LITE_P_A0 = 0x90,

NV_UNKNOWN = 0xFF

I thought it was looking like RX 5700 was Navi 12, give the CU count relative to Vega.

 

[Ovech-King]

So I just realized that Scarlett being 672Gb/s on Gddr6 is better than 2080Ti so we can assume native 4k 60 fps confirmed on Microsoft side.

 

[Negotiator]

So I just realized that Scarlett being 672Gb/s on Gddr6 is better than 2080Ti so we can assume native 4k 60 fps confirmed on Microsoft side.

Not a fair comparison, since 2080 Ti is a discrete GPU with a dedicated VRAM bus.

Next-gen APUs will have to feed more hungry CPU cores (Zen 2/AVX256), so memory contention will always be an issue in unified memory pools.

 

[LordOfChaos]

So I just realized that Scarlett being 672Gb/s on Gddr6 is better than 2080Ti so we can assume native 4k 60 fps confirmed on Microsoft side.

Nvidia notoriously makes significantly better use of bandwidth for one, second the CPU is using the same bandwidth pool here, and three I doubt the memory bandwidth available here will be the limit for a chip in this class, nor would quadrupling the bandwidth bring it closer to a 2080TI, the chip is the limit.

Last, as always it's up to the developers how to apply the extra power each generation affords.

 

[Hellgardia]

NV_NAVI10_P_A0 = 1,

NV_NAVI12_P_A0 = 10,

NV_NAVI14_M_A0 = 20,

NV_NAVI21_P_A0 = 40,

NV_NAVI10_LITE_P_A0 = 0x80,

NV_NAVI10_LITE_P_B0 = 0x81,

NV_NAVI12_LITE_P_A0 = 0x82,

NV_NAVI21_LITE_P_A0 = 0x90,

NV_UNKNOWN = 0xFF

Not a bad lineup but the problem is that apart from RX5700 Series, the other ones will probably be up against nVidia's 7nm EUV lineup.

 

[Ovech-King]

Not a fair comparison, since 2080 Ti is a discrete GPU with a dedicated VRAM bus.

Next-gen APUs will have to feed more hungry CPU cores (Zen 2/AVX256), so memory contention will always be an issue in unified memory pools.

Fair though platform optimization by the devs and future proof choices by both Sony and Microsoft still make my peace of mind because need to deliver until 2023+ . It may seems much in mid 2019 but we have to look at longevity here.

 

[ethomaz]

NV_NAVI10_P_A0 = 1,

NV_NAVI12_P_A0 = 10,

NV_NAVI14_M_A0 = 20,

NV_NAVI21_P_A0 = 40,

NV_NAVI10_LITE_P_A0 = 0x80,

NV_NAVI10_LITE_P_B0 = 0x81,

NV_NAVI12_LITE_P_A0 = 0x82,

NV_NAVI21_LITE_P_A0 = 0x90,

NV_UNKNOWN = 0xFF

It that official?

Because it basically confirms my guesses of Lite being the disabled units of the same chip... RX 5700 XT (Navi 10) and RX 5700 (Navi 10 Lite).

 

[ethomaz]

Just think a little about...

Why will AMD add console chip data to the Linux driver when no console chip will use Linux as OS?

 

[Imtjnotu]

I imagine either console could use it.

Maybe it's a bet that did or didn't pay off?

Well if you look at where we went graphics wise from beginning to end... It's a whole different playing field in regards to vanilla ps4. HZD VS shadow fall shows just have good it got

 

[archy121]

IMO discussions of RT importance are overblown

RT is more of a PR booster for the next console wars than a feature which can bring significant benefits without compromises in other areas. It’s being oversold as a must have when in reality the returns from the immature first generation tech will offer minimal benefits.

Cerney was correct not to give it too much attention as a developer he knows what features will give actual measurable returns. No spin doctoring.

Considering even the full blown Nvidia cards out next year costing $1400+ still won’t be able to do full blown RT without compromises I really don’t know what people are expecting from the comparative tiny AMD APU’s - miracles ?

We will be much better off with a console that has next to nothing boot/load times and maximised CPU power to push FPS & AI.

If Sony were to limit/sacrifice RT implementation and instead spend more resources on other areas of APU I would not see it as negative.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Just think a little about...

Why will AMD add console chip data to the Linux driver when no console chip will use Linux as OS?

Well it's in there:

~agd5f/linux - Unnamed repository; edit this file 'description' to name the repository.

cgit.freedesktop.org

The consoles are going to use APUs, so when people say it's Navi 10 Lite, they mean based on it in terms of the chip configuration, not using the actual part. So Navi 10 Lite is a dedicated part for desktop or mobile, as the string is in the driver.

 

[ethomaz]

Well it's in there:

~agd5f/linux - Unnamed repository; edit this file 'description' to name the repository.

cgit.freedesktop.org

The consoles are going to use APUs, so when people say it's Navi 10 Lite, they mean based on it in terms of the chip configuration, not using the actual part. So Navi 10 Lite is a dedicated part for desktop or mobile, as the string is in the driver.

There is no console in that link.

There are actually three Navi 10 products.

Navi 10 Rev. A0 = RX 5700 XT
Navi 10 Lite Rev. A0 = RX 5700?
Navi 10 Lite Rev. B0 = RX 5700?

The Rev. B0 could be either a revision of RX 5700 or another Navi 10 chip with disabled units to be launched in the future.

 

[KURDISTAN YPG]

Reading this thread and not understanding lot of tech stuff, are you lads suggesting sony will cheap out and let microsoft take the power in graphics?

 

[LordOfChaos]

There is no console in that link.

Who ever thought the literal console chip would be in there?

 

[ethomaz]

Who ever thought the literal console chip would be in there?

Every chip needs to be in the drive but console's chip won't be coded on Linux driver by AMD themselves (unless somebody in the community wants to).
These as only PC cards references.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Every chip needs to be in the drive but console's chip won't be coded on Linux driver by AMD themselves (unless somebody in the community wants to).
These as only PC cards references.

We know, these are just the PC products that the console chip will be more based on.

 

[Lacix]

Reading this thread and not understanding lot of tech stuff, are you lads suggesting sony will cheap out and let microsoft take the power in graphics?

Just the xbox stans.

 

[ethomaz]

We know, these are just the PC products that the console chip will be more based on.

So why everybody was talking about Navi 10 Lite being PS5???