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[Stuart360]

He is technically right. Also PS4 had smaller silicon than Xbox One yet was more powerful. Only case bigger is better is when you guarantee that both silicon share exactly the same design.

He's right about heat and power draw, but when the guy asked which is better, i dont think he was thinking about heat or power draw. ESRAM was why XB1 was bigger, something that wont be in next gen consoles.
A bigger apu means more space for stuff, and more potential for more power in most cases.

 

[Negotiator]

AAA games cost a lot of money (and time) to make these days, so I wouldn't bet on the "30 fps max graphics at all costs" mantra anymore.

Maybe a few devs here and there will still do it, but it would possibly mean we won't see TLOU3/RDR3 until 2030 at the earliest. Be prepared for that, don't say no one warned you of the consequences.

What if 60 fps mean less development costs/less crunch? What if Sony wants to heavily push next-gen PSVR and 60 fps becomes mandatory because of that? Lots of possibilities that cannot be ruled out.

Regarding MS, they have the money to fund AAA exclusives. It's just a matter of time, since you cannot churn out AAA games every month.

 

[Stuart360]

AAA games cost a lot of money (and time) to make these days, so I wouldn't bet on the "30 fps max graphics at all costs" mantra anymore.

Maybe a few devs here and there will still do it, but it would possibly mean we won't see TLOU3/RDR3 until 2030 at the earliest. Be prepared for that, don't say no one warned you of the consequences.

What if 60 fps mean less development costs/less crunch? What if Sony wants to heavily push next-gen PSVR and 60 fps becomes mandatory because of that? Lots of possibilities that cannot be ruled out.

Regarding MS, they have the money to fund AAA exclusives. It's just a matter of time, since you cannot churn out AAA games every month.

Dont do it to yourself, the majority of games next gen will be 30fps. As for AAA dev costs, we already get high poly games, we already get real time lighting (something RT is supposed to make cheaper by the way), we already get high resolution textures, etc. Plus targeting 4k is going to use up a lot of the extra power anyway.

 

[Aceofspades]

He's right about heat and power draw, but when the guy asked which is better, i dont think he was thinking about heat or power draw. ESRAM was why XB1 was bigger, something that wont be in next gen consoles.
A bigger apu means more space for stuff, and more potential for more power in most cases.

PS5 Ram is still a mystery. Sony may use HBM2 and ends up with smaller silicon and faster ram and free more silicon die for CUs , they can even use smaller bus with faster Gddr6 chips found on Scarlett.

Its still up in the air although most insiders hint at PS5 having slight edge over Scarlett.

 

[FranXico]

Its still up in the air although most insiders hint at PS5 having slight edge over Scarlett.

If there was a significant edge either way, there would have been a lot of consistent leaks about that. At most, some devs claim slight advantage depending on used features.

 

[Stuart360]

PS5 Ram is still a mystery. Sony may use HBM2 and ends up with smaller silicon and faster ram and free more silicon die for CUs , they can even use smaller bus with faster Gddr6 chips found on Scarlett.

Its still up in the air although most insiders hint at PS5 having slight edge over Scarlett.

Just like most insiders said XB1 was more powerful than PS4, even on the day of the full XB1 reveal.

 

[Negotiator]

Dont do it to yourself, the majority of games next gen will be 30fps. As for AAA dev costs, we already get high poly games, we already get real time lighting (something RT is supposed to make cheaper by the way), we already get high resolution textures, etc. Plus targeting 4k is going to use up a lot of the extra power anyway.

Don't do "what" to myself? I'm not a dev, I'm not the one who's suffering by chronic crunch and ballooning budgets.

RT is cheaper ONLY if you don't use rasterization. Full RT with zero rasterization is way too far away. Hybrid solutions cost more.

Have you wondered why most AAA devs avoid adding RTX ON effects (unless nVidia pays them)?

NVIDIA has created a gaming studio to remaster classic PC games with Ray Tracing effects

NVIDIA has created a studio that will specialize on adding Ray Tracing effects to remasters of even more classic PC games.

www.dsogaming.com

If hybrid RT/rasterization was cheaper, we would see the exact opposite, don't you think?

As I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm a consumer, not a dev. If they want more crunch/higher budgets, who am I to argue? They're the ones to decide what's more beneficial for them.

 

[Stuart360]

Don't do "what" to myself? I'm not a dev, I'm not the one who's suffering by chronic crunch and ballooning budgets.

RT is cheaper ONLY if you don't use rasterization. Full RT with zero rasterization is way too far away. Hybrid solutions cost more.

Have you wondered why most AAA devs avoid adding RTX ON effects (unless nVidia pays them)?

NVIDIA has created a gaming studio to remaster classic PC games with Ray Tracing effects

NVIDIA has created a studio that will specialize on adding Ray Tracing effects to remasters of even more classic PC games.

www.dsogaming.com

If hybrid RT/rasterization was cheaper, we would see the exact opposite, don't you think?

As I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm a consumer, not a dev. If they want more crunch/higher budgets, who am I to argue? They're the ones to decide what's more beneficial for them.

Well some devs have already said they dont expect dev costs to go up much next gen, and didnt Ubisoft come out recently and say they expect dev costs to actually be cheaper next gen?, i know someone did.
Like i said, 4k is going to eat into a lot of that extra power in next gen games, and thats why i think all but the biggest budget exclusive games will look like the best games from this gen, but in 4k.

 

[Negotiator]

Well some devs have already said they dont expect dev costs to go up much next gen, and didnt Ubisoft come out recently and say they expect dev costs to actually be cheaper next gen?, i know someone did.

How is that possible? Don't 4K assets cost more than 1080p ones?

Many studios already outsource artistic work (asset creation) to China. What's next? Outsourcing to Africa?

Like i said, 4k is going to eat into a lot of that extra power in next gen games

I think it's safe to forget 4K + RT ON, if 2080 Ti is anything to go by.

and thats why i think all but the biggest budget exclusive games will look like the best games from this gen, but in 4k.

That's not next-gen, that's cross-gen.

Uncharted 4 at 1080p does not look like Uncharted 2/3 Remastered at 1080p.

 

[Stuart360]

That's not next-gen, that's cross-gen.

Uncharted 4 at 1080p does not look like Uncharted 2/3 Remastered at 1080p.

Thats why i said' all but the biggest budget exclusive next gen game', which Uncharted certainly falls into.
You have to remember PS3 to PS4 was 720p to 1080p.
Next gen is going to be 1080p to 4k.
Its a much bigger jump that we usually have between gens.
I mean look at the Onex VS xb1, 6TF VS 1.32 YF, and the OneX can just about run a standard XB1 game at 4k. To run a standard 1080P PS4 game at 4k, we would need near 8tf, and the next gen consoles will probably 'only' be in the 8-10tf range. In fact the most recent rumours were 7tf!.

 

[Negotiator]

Thats why i said' all but the biggest budget exclusive next gen game', which Uncharted certainly falls into.
You have to remember PS3 to PS4 was 720p to 1080p.
Next gen is going to be 1080p to 4k.
Its a much bigger jump that we usually have between gens.
I mean look at the Onex VS xb1, 6TF VS 1.32 YF, and the OneX can just about run a standard XB1 game at 4k. To run a standard 1080P PS4 game at 4k, we would need near 8tf, and the next gen consoles will probably 'only' be in the 8-10tf range. In fact the most recent rumours were 7tf!.

You do realize that means an even higher budget jump, right? It's pure economics and gaming companies aren't central banks to print infinite money.

RDR2 was made by 3300 people last time I checked, it has a PS4/XB1 baseline and 1080p textures.

 

[Stuart360]

You do realize that means an even higher budget jump, right? It's pure economics and gaming companies aren't central banks to print infinite money.

RDR2 was made by 3300 people last time I checked, it has a PS4/XB1 baseline and 1080p textures.

Sorry i was talking about from a graphics perspective with that post, not budget.
We can only go on what devs say in regards to budgets, and some have said they dont expect costs to go up.

 

[FranXico]

You do realize that means an even higher budget jump, right? It's pure economics and gaming companies aren't central banks to print infinite money.

RDR2 was made by 3300 people last time I checked, it has a PS4/XB1 baseline and 1080p textures.

I agree with this. These days, most of the time and money investment is for art and assets, not coding. Resolution increases and GPU upgrades lead to more graphical fidelity, which directly impacts (read as increases the required effort for) artwork.

 

[Negotiator]

Sorry i was talking about from a graphics perspective with that post, not budget.
We can only go on what devs say in regards to budgets, and some have said they dont expect costs to go up.

Maybe they were talking about the programming aspect? Although that's very miniscule compared to the artistic work needed.

From a graphics perspective you need higher quality assets, which means more workers (artists), bigger studios, more salaries to pay. There's no way around it.

I think GTA6 won't have any issue with 4K assets and next-gen baseline, assuming it will sell as much as its predecessor. Few AAA games have this luxury though.

 

[svbarnard]

Game dev here, I work for a studio as working on a multi plat for ps5 and Scarlett, the graphics are looking just like the movie Avatar. We're using Ray tracing for shadows and global illumination and even reflections in the water and in car windows etc. I can't wait till next gen is here!!!!

 

[Stuart360]

Game dev here, I work for a studio as working on a multi plat for ps5 and Scarlett, the graphics are looking just like the movie Avatar. We're using Ray tracing for shadows and global illumination and even reflections in the water and in car windows etc. I can't wait till next gen is here!!!!

I take it you only saw the pirate camcorder version of AVATAR?

 

[svbarnard]

I take it you only saw the pirate camcorder version of AVATAR?

Listen I am telling you that next gen graphics are going to blow people's minds!!! The graphics look like CGI from a movie! I wish I could tell you which studio I work at but I don't want to be fired. And yes Bonnie Ross is way hotter in person!!! Though lately she's looking like an old grandma but back in 2013 she looks so gorgeous in person!!!!

 

[ANIMAL1975]

Game dev here, I work for a studio as working on a multi plat for ps5 and Scarlett, the graphics are looking just like the movie Avatar. We're using Ray tracing for shadows and global illumination and even reflections in the water and in car windows etc. I can't wait till next gen is here!!!!

Tell us everything! Which as more mms!?

 

[Stuart360]

Listen I am telling you that next gen graphics are going to blow people's minds!!! The graphics look like CGI from a movie! I wish I could tell you which studio I work at but I don't want to be fired. And yes Bonnie Ross is way hotter in person!!! Though lately she's looking like an old grandma but back in 2013 she looks so gorgeous in person!!!!

You could tell us more about the game, without giving away too much

 

[Negotiator]

Does GAF still have a vetting process for devs/insiders?

 

[svbarnard]

You could tell us more about the game, without giving away too much

I will tell you this much the game is going to have an install higher than 200 GB!!!!

 

[ResilientBanana]

Game dev here, I work for a studio as working on a multi plat for ps5 and Scarlett, the graphics are looking just like the movie Avatar. We're using Ray tracing for shadows and global illumination and even reflections in the water and in car windows etc. I can't wait till next gen is here!!!!

I want to believe you.

 

[EviLore]

I want to believe you.

That's when you should be the most skeptical.

 

[Fake]

Xbox insiders... Attack!!!!!

 

[FranXico]

svbarnard is to exclamation marks what thelastword is to ellipsis.

 

[Insane Metal]

The new metric of next gen power.

Yes. Next Gen E-Peen metrics.

 

[CrustyBritches]

IIRC Xbox One was less powerful because it used DDR3 RAM (at that point PS4 was planned to have 4GB of GDDR5, but sony managed to put 8GB at the last minute). The cpu had a higher clock, and the GPU was under clocked. The ESRAM is used as a trick to compensate part of its deficits.

In a way what you say is true in that MS went with 8GB DDR3 and needed to compensate for the poor game performance with SRAM. Consequently, Xbox One ended up with a larger, yet weaker SoC since they had less CUs, so they ended up at 1.31TF and a bottleneck rather than 1.84TF without.

Things might have been different if PS4 ended up with 4GB GDDR5 instead of 8GB.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Xbox insiders... Attack!!!!!

What’s this about?

 

[Fake]

What’s this about?

An out of season april fools joke.

 

[bitbydeath]

Game dev here, I work for a studio as working on a multi plat for ps5 and Scarlett, the graphics are looking just like the movie Avatar. We're using Ray tracing for shadows and global illumination and even reflections in the water and in car windows etc. I can't wait till next gen is here!!!!

Are they both 6TF machines?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

For those of you a bit earlier talking about chip sizes and which system has bigger chips, I wouldn't put anything into it.

Even if one system has a bigger chip, look what happened to Xbox One and PS4. Xbox had bigger chips and a bulkier footprint, and PS4 was more powerful.

 

[bitbydeath]

For those of you a bit earlier talking about chip sizes and which system has bigger chips, I wouldn't put anything into it.

Even if one system has a bigger chip, look what happened to Xbox One and PS4. Xbox had bigger chips and a bulkier footprint, and PS4 was more powerful.

Furthermore it’s all rumours anyway.
No point taking any of it seriously until it comes from Sony/MS

 

[svbarnard]

Are they both 6TF machines?

Believe it or not I'm not very high up on the totem pole in my studio so I'm not privy to that information but for sure both of these consoles are at least 12 teraflop machines. One thing that keeps blowing my mind is how we are able to take destruction to the next level, if you think battlefield has good destruction just wait till you see what next-gen is going to bring!!!!

 

[Dargor]

Believe it or not I'm not very high up on the totem pole in my studio so I'm not privy to that information but for sure both of these consoles are at least 12 teraflop machines. One thing that keeps blowing my mind is how we are able to take destruction to the next level, if you think battlefield has good destruction just wait till you see what next-gen is going to bring!!!!

Just testing your street cred here, so, are you a hellpoint dev?

 

[sonomamashine]

Believe it or not I'm not very high up on the totem pole in my studio so I'm not privy to that information

you shouldn't have said that, you kinda blew your lie right there.

 

[TeamGhobad]

In a way what you say is true in that MS went with 8GB DDR3 and needed to compensate for the poor game performance with SRAM. Consequently, Xbox One ended up with a larger, yet weaker SoC since they had less CUs, so they ended up at 1.31TF and a bottleneck rather than 1.84TF without.

i've had this discussion many times, but the "experts" here are very adamant that giving up 1/3 of the die space to 32megs of esram was vital....

 

[svbarnard]

you shouldn't have said that, you kinda blew your lie right there.

Why you say that? R u a game dev too?

 

[Foamy]

Believe it or not I'm not very high up on the totem pole in my studio so I'm not privy to that information but for sure both of these consoles are at least 12 teraflop machines. One thing that keeps blowing my mind is how we are able to take destruction to the next level, if you think battlefield has good destruction just wait till you see what next-gen is going to bring!!!!

Hes the janitor and occasionally catches a glimpse of them play testing while emptying the waste baskets.

 

[Negotiator]

For those of you a bit earlier talking about chip sizes and which system has bigger chips, I wouldn't put anything into it.

Even if one system has a bigger chip, look what happened to Xbox One and PS4. Xbox had bigger chips and a bulkier footprint, and PS4 was more powerful.

There's no way we're gonna have an eSRAM situation this time around.

OG PS4 and OG XB1 might have been dissimilar, but PS4 Pro and XB1X converged a lot (since MS copied PS4's successful unified GDDR5 setup).

This trend of technological convergence isn't going to stop here. As I've said before, utilizing economies of scale makes sense. Going exotic and using non-standard tech is risky.

Believe it or not I'm not very high up on the totem pole in my studio so I'm not privy to that information but for sure both of these consoles are at least 12 teraflop machines. One thing that keeps blowing my mind is how we are able to take destruction to the next level, if you think battlefield has good destruction just wait till you see what next-gen is going to bring!!!!

^ Can someone vet this guy?

 

[TeamGhobad]

Why you say that? R u a game dev too?

trolls like this are just annoying just ban

 

[Imtjnotu]

Does GAF still have a vetting process for devs/insiders?

Just testing your street cred here, so, are you a hellpoint dev?

 

[Negotiator]

i've had this discussion many times, but the "experts" here are very adamant that giving up 1/3 of the die space to 32megs of esram was vital....

Xbox One Has A “Super-Computer Design" with a Really Complicated GPU, Says the Console Creator

Xbox’s Director Of Development Boyd Multerer, the guy known as creator of Xbox One, claims that Microsoft's latest console has a "super-computer design."

wccftech.com

XBOX ONE basically utilized an old-school design with a fast, scratchpad memory (SRAM). We're talking about the same engineers that designed 3DO, so it's a bit unfair to call them incompetent.

It made sense back in the PS2 era (4MB eDRAM), since RDRAM was expensive as fuck, but not that much these days (GDDR5 is affordable and it has economies of scale with GPUs).

It's not a bad design per se, it's just that it's antiquated by modern tech standards and it complicated programming quite a bit (lots of micromanagement to fit a 1080p framebuffer, especially with deferred rendering engines).

PS3's Cell had the same issue with its 7 SPEs and 256KB of local store memory (very fast SRAM). Demoscene coders loved it (since it was heavily inspired by DSPs and supercomputers), but the average PC-focused coder (i.e. Valve/Gabe, CD Projekt RED) hated it.

In a sense, you could say XB1 is MS's PS3 moment (too complicated design/hard programming). Some games like Gears 5 can deliver 1080p30 (or 60 fps for PvP MP), but the average coder is unlikely to achieve that.

On the other hand, PS4 is Sony's XBOX 360. It copied all the good stuff (unified instead of discrete memory, simplified programming/better tools etc.)

 

[Stuart360]

Oh my God, that XB1 Peak Performence pic is hilarious lol.

 

[Fake]

Old, but gold.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Believe it or not I'm not very high up on the totem pole in my studio so I'm not privy to that information but for sure both of these consoles are at least 12 teraflop machines. One thing that keeps blowing my mind is how we are able to take destruction to the next level, if you think battlefield has good destruction just wait till you see what next-gen is going to bring!!!!

Sound like UE4

 

[Sosokrates]

smaller is better because it's cheaper to make, less power draw, less heat.

Well, a bigger APU of the same or similar design has the potential to be more powerful, so smaller is not universal better.

For example
If scarlett has 44 active cu's and ps5 has 36 active cu's. The scarlett APU is always going to be more powerful at the same clock speed, Sony might go crazy and clock at the absolute max of 2000mhz and get 9.2tf, however if scarlett clock at 1780mhz and get 10tflops there is nothing Sony can do.

 

[svbarnard]

There's no way we're gonna have an eSRAM situation this time around.

OG PS4 and OG XB1 might have been dissimilar, but PS4 Pro and XB1X converged a lot (since MS copied PS4's successful unified GDDR5 setup).

This trend of technological convergence isn't going to stop here. As I've said before, utilizing economies of scale makes sense. Going exotic and using non-standard tech is risky.


^ Can someone vet this guy?

Yeah 12 teraflops, why is that so hard to believe? You guys have no idea what's coming, this is going to be the Golden age in video games history, the stuff I'm seeing when I go to work everyday just blows my mind! Microsoft and Sony know what they are doing they are rolling out powerful machines and most likely will charge $600 but this is going to usher in a new era where anything can be destructible and anything can be ray-traced with ultra real textures. I really can't give anything too detailed otherwise I could get fired.

 

[Negotiator]

Yeah 12 teraflops, why is that so hard to believe? You guys have no idea what's coming, this is going to be the Golden age in video games history, the stuff I'm seeing when I go to work everyday just blows my mind! Microsoft and Sony know what they are doing they are rolling out powerful machines and most likely will charge $600 but this is going to usher in a new era where anything can be destructible and anything can be ray-traced with ultra real textures. I really can't give anything too detailed otherwise I could get fired.

Maybe the BoM cost will be $600, but the MSRP won't exceed $499. I've been very firm on this.

$100 loss per console will be easily recouped by services (PS Now, Game Pass).

Now, what about that vetting process?

 

[bitbydeath]

Yeah 12 teraflops, why is that so hard to believe? You guys have no idea what's coming, this is going to be the Golden age in video games history, the stuff I'm seeing when I go to work everyday just blows my mind! Microsoft and Sony know what they are doing they are rolling out powerful machines and most likely will charge $600 but this is going to usher in a new era where anything can be destructible and anything can be ray-traced with ultra real textures. I really can't give anything too detailed otherwise I could get fired.

Can you take a photo of the devkits or even the new PS5 controller providing you received it?

 

[FranXico]

Yeah 12 teraflops, why is that so hard to believe? You guys have no idea what's coming, this is going to be the Golden age in video games history, the stuff I'm seeing when I go to work everyday just blows my mind! Microsoft and Sony know what they are doing they are rolling out powerful machines and most likely will charge $600 but this is going to usher in a new era where anything can be destructible and anything can be ray-traced with ultra real textures. I really can't give anything too detailed otherwise I could get fired.

If you really are a dev, why don't you contact a mod? They will respect your privacy and that of your employer.