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[MasterCornholio]

Xbox fans bragging about a secret feature? Coff Coff, dGPU in the power brick, DirectX 12, Powa of the cloud Coff Coff, never heard before.

Oh jeez I'm not saying they don't exist. For example the XSX does have dedicated hardware for VRS just like the PS5 has a lot of dedicated hardware for the I/O. I'm just saying that's it's being exaggerated what they actually do.

Like I'm not expecting a switch to be flipped for either console and for performance to get 50% better. Customizations do help but they aren't magical.

 

[LiquidRex]

Good to see SSD PCIE 4 coming along nicely into 2021.... Next gen consoles being the trigger.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Reading into that it seems the RDNA2 ISA doesn't expose any kind of BVH building and traversal info. So the same things said about DXRT by that Unreal Engine developer should also apply to all the RDNA2 implementations.

I remember some time ago people in this thread claiming that PS5's RT might be better than DXRT because it might be less of a black box.
If the RDNA2 ISA doesn't expose that information, Sony won't be able to expose it to developers either.

No... lol.

The RDNA 2 ISA doesn’t expose anything related to BVH building and traversal because those steps aren’t accelerated in the RT core hardware like they are on NVidia GPUs. Devs will do it in software using general GPU compute. It’ll be slower than on NVidia GPUs, however, the greater flexibility grants opportunities for investigating more efficient approaches using totally custom acceleration structures and traversal schemes.

 

[v_iHuGi]

Oh jeez I'm not saying they don't exist. For example the XSX does have dedicated hardware for VRS just like the PS5 has a lot of dedicated hardware for the I/O. I'm just saying that's it's being exaggerated what they actually do.

Like I'm not expecting a switch to be flipped for either console and for performance to get 50% better. Customizations do help but they aren't magical.

Both Console will keep improving hugely across the Gen, CPU power isn´t a constraint this time around like last gen. CPUs last gen actually hold many games back since 2013.

 

[3liteDragon]

Reading into that it seems the RDNA2 ISA doesn't expose any kind of BVH building and traversal info. So the same things said about DXRT by that Unreal Engine developer should also apply to all the RDNA2 implementations.

I remember some time ago people in this thread claiming that PS5's RT might be better than DXRT because it might be less of a black box.
If the RDNA2 ISA doesn't expose that information, Sony won't be able to expose it to developers either.

Except Xbox Series X|S and PC use the DX12 Ultimate API, not PlayStation 5 (MS also said that the Series consoles are the ONLY consoles to have “full RDNA 2 support). What the developer was complaining about regarding DX12U was that there were so many abstraction layers (makes sense considering how many different configurations of PCs are out there) and that the API doesn’t give them low-level access when it comes to ray-tracing.

Sony have their own shader program and their own APIs for RT, the hardware method for ray-tracing might be the same (if RGT is on the money, both the PS5’s and Series consoles’ RT solutions are a bit customized, but we don’t know to what extent on the PS5 because we don’t have a FULL technical breakdown of the hardware OR die shots) as the Series consoles and PC RDNA 2 (level 2 RT solution compared to NVIDIA’s level 3 RT solution, which also includes HW-accelerated BVH traversal), but I think it’s more than safe to assume that Sony gave low-level access to the RT hardware on PS5.

 

[devilNprada]

Ok so i can log into PS4 with my account at the same time I can login to the PS5 with the same account...

Anyone know how I can partychat with myself?
Trying to get Little Big Planet 5 playable on four consoles with one copy of the game?

 

[onesvenus]

No... lol.

The RDNA 2 ISA doesn’t expose anything related to BVH building and traversal because those steps aren’t accelerated in the RT core hardware like they are on NVidia GPUs. Devs will do it in software using general GPU compute. It’ll be slower than on NVidia GPUs, however, the greater flexibility grants opportunities for investigating more efficient approaches using totally custom acceleration structures and traversal schemes.

The article says that developers have no way to know about the BVH structure used.
Can you explain to me how that's possible if, as you say, they are the ones creating the structure and the traversal?
The function also gets an offset from the root node of the BVH. If, as you say, the ISA doesn't know how the BVH is created and traversed, how can the node to run the intersection on be found?
He also says this:

It would also be great if this instruction was exposed in HLSL someday to allow the option for custom acceleration structures and traversal schemes.

If what you say is true, custom acceleration structures and traversal schemes should already be allowed, shouldn't it?

 

[onesvenus]

I think it’s more than safe to assume that Sony gave low-level access to the RT hardware on PS5.

If we assume what Kostas is saying is true, and the BVH creation and traversal is not exposed in the RDNA2 ISA, how could Sony allow low-level access to that? They won't go lower than the ISA

 

[SynTha1]

And talking about maturity and self respect when you sound like an 8 year old

Can u explain how I sound like a 8 year old because I haven't been disrespectful to anyone just wanted to have my question answered and to the ones like riky who gave me a real and thought out answer thank u I respect his answer like I said I understand everyone is different and likes different things for different reasons just wanted to see if any Xbox fan could have a decent and mature discussion on why they are still a Xbox fan. If u can't understand that maybe your the 8 year old.

 

[SynTha1]

I'll explain why if you can keep it civil.

Firstly the controller, I have always found the PS controller totally inferior, the stick placement, the size and the build quality. The Xbox controller has bee continually refined with no gimmicks like Sixaxis basically from the original Xbox S controller, I'm incredibly comfortable with it.

My games library carrying forward, not every game but I can put a lot of my 360 games into my 360, Xbox One, Xbox One X and Xbox Series X and even my digital versions in Series S and they work, I put my Killzone disc into PS5, nothing. Not only do they work but they have been updated sometimes several times FOR FREE. Red Dead Redemption in 4k is still stunning, even none updated games like GTA IV now run so much better than when released, GTA IV on PS? The likes of Oblivion and Fallout New Vegas are still played regularly in my house.

So my games library both digital and disc based has been better served by Microsoft and it's all been for free.

Games. Unlike some people Sony's output since Killzone Shadow Fall has been of little interest to me personally, I'm into online shooters and arcade racers. Sony release a lot of third person story driven games that I don't find overly interesting and for that sort of thing I have RDR2 or Witcher 3 if I do want to play that sort of thing. Forza Horizon, Gears and Halo are franchises I don't want to be without.

After having all PS systems from launch previously the PS5 is the first one I feel I don't need yet, I played Demons Souls a decade ago and it's not my thing, I can get Spiderman on my PS4 Pro and there isn't anything on the horizon that makes me want one coming. If they bring back Killzone or Resistance I'd bite straight away but they seem now to have a formula and they are sticking to it as it sells games, it's just not for me personally.

So those are some reasons why, all just my personal opinion but you wanted an explanation.

Thank you riky for being the only mature Xbox fan that could actually explain why he likes and still supports Xbox without turning into a immature fanboy. I can respect all those reasons. Like I said I don't troll people I have my reasons for hating Microsoft and I just wanted to know the reasons why someone would still be a fan its as simple as that.

 

[SlimySnake]

No... lol.

The RDNA 2 ISA doesn’t expose anything related to BVH building and traversal because those steps aren’t accelerated in the RT core hardware like they are on NVidia GPUs. Devs will do it in software using general GPU compute. It’ll be slower than on NVidia GPUs, however, the greater flexibility grants opportunities for investigating more efficient approaches using totally custom acceleration structures and traversal schemes.

I am still not sure how RT works in RDNA gpus. Cerny had said that the RT hardware was built in the GPU. But apparently he wasn't talking about dedicated RT cores?

I am also not sure how Spiderman can do native 4k 30 fps with RT, better draw distance, more NPCs and yet has trouble doing that at half the resolution and twice the framerate. Is there a bottleneck somewhere? Why do they have to drastically reduce the NPC count and traffic density on top of halving the resolution of both the RT reflections and the base game? Whatever compute the shader processors were doing at native 4k should be the same amount of work at 1440p which is less than half the number of pixels in a native 4k image. And yet, despite the lower graphical settings, you have the resolution dipping all the way to 1080p.

If the bottleneck was on the CPU side with their variable clocks implementation, we wouldve seen it perform much worse in 120 fps modes in CoD and DMCV than the XSX. So it's not the CPU that is unable to do 60 fps with a far higher NPC count. So it must be their RT implementation that is creating a bottleneck where they are unable to run the game at the same graphical settings at half the resolution. Not a fan of playing spiderman in the 60 FPS performance RT modes. It just doesnt look as good.

 

[ethomaz]

We won't get that Dirt 5 comparison this year?
It is being a boring week start
I can't even drink some beer working

I had to work but there is barely any work to do... I want to read while that but there is barely any new news here.
Can't wait Thursday for the pre-New Year... I will be having fun with family but until reach there... 4 more days

 

[IllegalLemon]

I am still not sure how RT works in RDNA gpus. Cerny had said that the RT hardware was built in the GPU. But apparently he wasn't talking about dedicated RT cores?

I am also not sure how Spiderman can do native 4k 30 fps with RT, better draw distance, more NPCs and yet has trouble doing that at half the resolution and twice the framerate. Is there a bottleneck somewhere? Why do they have to drastically reduce the NPC count and traffic density on top of halving the resolution of both the RT reflections and the base game? Whatever compute the shader processors were doing at native 4k should be the same amount of work at 1440p which is less than half the number of pixels in a native 4k image. And yet, despite the lower graphical settings, you have the resolution dipping all the way to 1080p.

If the bottleneck was on the CPU side with their variable clocks implementation, we wouldve seen it perform much worse in 120 fps modes in CoD and DMCV than the XSX. So it's not the CPU that is unable to do 60 fps with a far higher NPC count. So it must be their RT implementation that is creating a bottleneck where they are unable to run the game at the same graphical settings at half the resolution. Not a fan of playing spiderman in the 60 FPS performance RT modes. It just doesnt look as good.

The frametime you have to work with at 60fps is half that of 30fps. At 30fps you have 33.3 ms(milliseconds) at 60fps that time is halved to 16.6ms. The more effects, shading etc you add the more time you need in that frametime. For example, you have used let's say 24ms to do lightning, shading, textures etc. you'll be left with 9ms to do postprocess effects and maybe other things you haven't yet added. That's on 30fps, on 60 you have less frametime to work with and that gives you far less legroom and at 16ms that also means far less effects, shading and so on and like mentioned above, the more you add the more time it consumes in the frametime available to you and it must also fit in that frametime too. You can't go above that frametime otherwise you'll consume too much performance and impact it negatively.

 

[DarkMage619]

Oh jeez I'm not saying they don't exist. For example the XSX does have dedicated hardware for VRS just like the PS5 has a lot of dedicated hardware for the I/O. I'm just saying that's it's being exaggerated what they actually do.

Like I'm not expecting a switch to be flipped for either console and for performance to get 50% better. Customizations do help but they aren't magical.

Has anyone stated there would be a 50% improvement in performance...EVER? The only thing I've heard is that MS was later getting dev kits to developers and that would explain why some of the titles are underperforming. It doesn't mean the XSX is 50% more powerful than the PS5 and that will be unlocked with a better dev kit. Even if you are looking at the paper specs it was around 18% and that didn't take into account the faster SSD and the faster variable GPU on the PS5. There was never going to be a massive performance delta in 3rd party titles and no one at MS ever said there would be. They did say it was the most powerful and when you look at all the complete suite of performance gains you get from older titles it hard to argue they didn't do something right.

 

[MasterCornholio]

They did say it was the most powerful and when you look at all the complete suite of performance gains you get from older titles it hard to argue they didn't do something right.

What does running old games have to do with power? The two systems handle BC very differently.

As for the 50% delta it was mostly Dealer and Colt that were spreading that around.

If you look at the paper specifications the PS5 seems like it's on par with the XSX. Sony must have done something right with the systems design to get those results.

I'm wondering if the 18% delta even exists given the current delta between the two systems. If anything it's in the single digits and can go either way depending on the game.

 

[SlimySnake]

The frametime you have to work with at 60fps is half that of 30fps. At 30fps you have 33.3 ms(milliseconds) at 60fps that time is halved to 16.6ms. The more effects, shading etc you add the more time you need in that frametime. For example, you have used let's say 24ms to do lightning, shading, textures etc. you'll be left with 9ms to do postprocess effects and maybe other things you haven't yet added. That's on 30fps, on 60 you have less frametime to work with and that gives you far less legroom and at 16ms that also means far less effects, shading and so on and like mentioned above, the more you add the more time it consumes in the frametime available to you and it must also fit in that frametime too. You can't go above that frametime otherwise you'll consume too much performance and impact it negatively.

Right. But typically, reducing the resolution by half let's you fit all those effects in half the frametime. I've been gaming on pcs for almost two decades and this has largely been true. Even for rt games on rtx cards.
Yet something seems to be amiss on the ps5.

 

[DarkMage619]

What does running old games have to do with power? The two systems handle BC very differently.

As for the 50% delta it was mostly Dealer and Colt that were spreading that around.

If you look at the paper specifications the PS5 seems like it's on par with the XSX. Sony must have done something right with the systems design to get those results.

If you have 2 consoles that have equal specs but one can run a game at 60fps and the other only 30 which would YOU say is more powerful? If a game is old it should have an EASIER time running better on new hardware. The XSX runs old games like a high end machine should the PS5 does not. That is not MS's fault.

Dealer and Colt do NOT work for MS and the thing is they both also own PS5s so at least when they talk about the consoles they speak from experience.

You're right Sony did do some things right with the PS5 namely the controller. They also dropped the ball on console acoustics, storage upgrade options, digital return policy, BC, game saves from PS4 to PS5, 'dumb delivery', and some other issues. The PS5 is cool but it is far from perfect and I'm hoping that their years of market dominance isn't breeding complacency. They are the market leader and should be held to a higher standard.

 

[IllegalLemon]

Right. But typically, reducing the resolution by half let's you fit all those effects in half the frametime. I've been gaming on pcs for almost two decades and this has largely been true. Even for rt games on rtx cards.
Yet something seems to be amiss on the ps5.

I mean, it's still in the early years of the gen now. Things are bound to get better as algorithms get optimised but for now, that's all we've got. Technically the stronger the gpu ,the less time it takes for something to be processed which also means that it consumes less of your frametime meaning you have room to add much more. Both consoles have loads of untapped potential and devs have barely scratched the surface of what they can offer, things will get better as devs get more familiar with the hardware.

 

[MasterCornholio]

If you have 2 consoles that have equal specs but one can run a game at 60fps and the other only 30 which would YOU say is more powerful? If a game is old it should have an EASIER time running better on new hardware. The XSX runs old games like a high end machine should the PS5 does not. That is not MS's fault.

Dealer and Colt do NOT work for MS and the thing is they both also own PS5s so at least when they talk about the consoles they speak from experience.

You're right Sony did do some things right with the PS5 namely the controller. They also dropped the ball on console acoustics, storage upgrade options, digital return policy, BC, game saves from PS4 to PS5, 'dumb delivery', and some other issues. The PS5 is cool but it is far from perfect and I'm hoping that their years of market dominance isn't breeding complacency. They are the market leader and should be held to a higher standard.

Actually the PS5 just runs to the Pro versions of games for the most part. So the differences that your seeing is mostly the same as Pro vs X. Except the PS5 time games better than the Pro for the most part. Unless developers make a PS5 version of the game that really won't change. It's also why Rocket League is limited to 60FPs on the PS5. Microsoft simply does BC better but that isn't necessarily due to the power of the system.

As for Colt and Dealer they make some pretty crazy claims and I have no idea why you support them. You said they speak from experience but most of the time they just fabricate the information that they give out. Like Dealers 40FPs-50FPs advantage in genes or Colts magical patch that will create a massive delta between the two. I really wouldn't trust either for information after they made those claims.

Anyways I think you should also hold Microsoft to higher standards especially when I comes to their marketing department. I'm fine with them saying that they have the most powerful system but always when they can prove it. So far the XSX isn't beating the PS5 im every single multiplat which doesn't support their most powerful console claim at the moment. They need to improve that and make good on their promises.

Now we wait.

 

[SSfox]

I really wish we can play PS123 in PS5, i'm really in the mood on playing(re) MGS collection HD right now, i don't even think it's hard to implement that BC feature isn't.

I almost starting suspect Sony did it in purpose to give a 1 win point for Microsoft's Xbox. But they need to know that i'm not gonna buy Xbox just because it has BC, specially since most classic dope games aren't on Xbox also so.

Sony hurry up and put PS123 BC C'moooooon!!!

 

[Mr Moose]

PS5 doesn't have the ability to do lower INT calculations like the XSX or Nvidia GPUs do.
If all ML could be done on a normal FP32 GPU and didn't need the lower precision calcs to increase its potential, then they would have been doing it on the PS4 and Xbox One.
Reality is that to get ML of any real ability you require hardware alterations to tap into INT 8 and INT 4.
Don't take my word for it, take David Gage from QD who said the XSX is way more suited for ML than the PS5 is.
It is what it is.

I will take the word of an actual Sony Engineer that most likely helped design the thing than some non technical PR person.
I would also take the word of David Gage over a PR person.

 

[DarkMage619]

Actually the PS5 just runs to the Pro versions of games for the most part. So the differences that your seeing is mostly the same as Pro vs X. Except the PS5 time games better than the Pro for the most part. Unless developers make a PS5 version of the game that really won't change. It's also why Rocket League is limited to 60FPs on the PS5. Microsoft simply does BC better but that isn't necessarily due to the power of the system.

As for Colt and Dealer they make some pretty crazy claims and I have no idea why you support them. You said they speak from experience but most of the time they just fabricate the information that they give out. Like Dealers 40FPs-50FPs advantage in genes or Colts magical patch that will create a massive delta between the two. I really wouldn't trust either for information after they made those claims.

Anyways I think you should also hold Microsoft to higher standards especially when I comes to their marketing department. I'm fine with them saying that they have the most powerful system but always when they can prove it. So far the XSX isn't beating the PS5 im every single multiplat which doesn't support their most powerful console claim at the moment. They need to improve that and make good on their promises.

Now we wait.

Power is an ambiguous term that could mean many things. Sony fans here are claiming the PS5 is more powerful because of its performance in Assassins Creed so people can believe what they want. I tend to believe that if a console can take an old game and boost its performance with minimal effort and the other console requires a specific release that is an aspect of power especially when we are talking about an 'old' game that should pose no problems at all.

Who says I 'support' Dealer or Colt? I simply stated they don't work for MS so why should what they say be taken over the people producing the console? I will continue to say that people that actually own and play both consoles have more creditability than people who only own one and have emotional opposition to a brand. No one should ever believe that either of these consoles would have a '40-50 fps advantage' over the other except I suppose the XSX again because of their superior performance for BC tittles we already discussed.

Again power should be taken with a grain of salt seeing how as I've stated it could mean many things. You don't like MS's marketing and that's fine but I happen to enjoy the outreach they have with their fans. I like the Tik Toc videos and they can be pretty funny on Twitter. It just make the brand feel more personable than just a faceless corp. pushing a product but that's my personal opinion. In the end it is Sony that is market leader they have the highest standard to uphold. They do ok in some areas and not great in others. They have room for improvement just like MS.

 

[Mr Moose]

I bought my PS5 to play old game, I am sure you all did too.

 

[Krisprolls]

Simply because Sony didn't make the same alterations that MS did to the GPU.
I remember Sony people saying that the PS5 had Mesh Shaders and VRS because it was a RDNA 2 feature. They found out that it wasn't the case.

Sony actually made MORE alterations than MS, that's why games perform better on PS5 despite having less raw specs.

When they don't use the same solution as MS, it just means they prefer using their own custom one... Because it's better.

 

[OverHeat]

Sony actually made MORE alterations than MS, that's why games perform better on PS5 despite having less raw specs.

See tags...mmm

 

[SynTha1]

What did you expect when you treated everybody who answered your question honestly dismissing their opinions?

I answered that the reasons for me to buy the XSX were their licenses (and gave you two examples of it) and Gamepass, which allows me to play a lot of games I wouldn't have played otherwise.
You answered with this


Are you sure what you want to do is debate? Or only feed your opinion into others?

I just saw your answer and if that's your reasons I can respect that even if I don't agree with it. All I ask is for a mature response which u gave and I appreciate it. I can listen and debate on a mature level without trying to push my opinion and feelings onto anyone else every person's choices are their own and most of the time their mind won't be changed I get that but like I said I just like to discuss the reasons behind those choices.

 

[Krisprolls]

See tags...mmm

Games run better on ps5, don't they? With less raw cpu / gpu specs.

How do you think they achieve that.? Magic?

You either use higher raw specs and brute force or you customize more.

 

[OverHeat]

Games run better on ps5, don't they? With less raw cpu / gpu specs.

How do you think they achieve that.? Magic?

Maybe?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Power is an ambiguous term that could mean many things. Sony fans here are claiming the PS5 is more powerful because of its performance in Assassins Creed so people can believe what they want. I tend to believe that if a console can take an old game and boost its performance with minimal effort and the other console requires a specific release that is an aspect of power especially when we are talking about an 'old' game that should pose no problems at all.

Who says I 'support' Dealer or Colt? I simply stated they don't work for MS so why should what they say be taken over the people producing the console? I will continue to say that people that actually own and play both consoles have more creditability than people who only own one and have emotional opposition to a brand. No one should ever believe that either of these consoles would have a '40-50 fps advantage' over the other except I suppose the XSX again because of their superior performance for BC tittles we already discussed.

Again power should be taken with a grain of salt seeing how as I've stated it could mean many things. You don't like MS's marketing and that's fine but I happen to enjoy the outreach they have with their fans. I like the Tik Toc videos and they can be pretty funny on Twitter. It just make the brand feel more personable than just a faceless corp. pushing a product but that's my personal opinion. In the end it is Sony that is market leader they have the highest standard to uphold. They do ok in some areas and not great in others. They have room for improvement just like MS.

That's fine. Thanks for sharing your perspective on the matter.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Games run better on ps5, don't they? With less raw cpu / gpu specs.

How do you think they achieve that.? Magic?

You either use higher raw specs and brute force or you customize more.

I think it really depends on the game. Some games have a higher average FPS on the PS5 while others have it on the XSX. There's really proof that supports either as being the best place to play multiplats. I think that's mainly due to how close the two systems really are.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Games run better on ps5, don't they? With less raw cpu / gpu specs.

How do you think they achieve that.? Magic?

You either use higher raw specs and brute force or you customize more.

Sony actually has the cpu advantage if I'm not mistaken

 

[MasterCornholio]

Sony actually has the cpu advantage if I'm not mistaken

I don't think ever been confirmed though. Without a die shot it's difficult to know if it's true or not.

Your talking about the unified cache right?

 

[3liteDragon]

If we assume what Kostas is saying is true, and the BVH creation and traversal is not exposed in the RDNA2 ISA, how could Sony allow low-level access to that? They won't go lower than the ISA

Well AMD have created their own acceleration structure (BVH) I think for RT for the PC cards and with so many different PC configurations out there, so they didn't bother mentioning anything BVH-related and only talked about ray intersection tests through accessing the dedicated hardware.

Sony might already be using AMD’s standard acceleration structure at launch at least, but in that tech PDF that was shared on this thread, they talked about how they’re researching/working on advanced acceleration structures for “faster” RT WITH input from developers also being considered throughout the entire process. And since they’re using their own API and are allowing low-level access, they’re giving devs a bit more fine-grained control over the RT process. Btw, none of the current-gen consoles and RDNA 2 PC cards have HW-accelerated BVH traversal, so I’m guessing these happen on the shaders (SPs in a CU) themselves through asynchronous compute.

 

[Lunatic_Gamer]

 

[PaintTinJr]

I don't think ever been confirmed though. Without a die shot it's difficult to know if it's true or not.

Your talking about the unified cache right?

It has been confirmed by a few things IMO. The way in which the PS5 responds to frame-rate dips is different to the XsX going by the graphs we've seen so far. And the smooth drops and smooth recovery shows the CPU isn't getting overwhelmed. The I/O complex and the equivalent work it does that the CPU is free from, hence why they don't waste CPU cores by even offering an SMT disabled mode is further proof. If you are doing compute work that doesn't need predictive branching on a CPU core - when you have idle CUs - then it is because you are forced to - as it is the wrong tool for the job.

The presence of SmartShift also implies the CPU is more efficient, because they are anticipating frequent underutilisation and want to bump excess power to the GPU - most likely because of the IO complex taking away previous PS4 CPU workloads.

 

[Garani]

Simply because Sony didn't make the same alterations that MS did to the GPU.
I remember Sony people saying that the PS5 had Mesh Shaders and VRS because it was a RDNA 2 feature. They found out that it wasn't the case.

I think you got it wrong. It's actually MS who used an off-the-shelf architecture and used it with next to no alteration. Or are you referring to the Kitty rumor that XSX uses RDNA1 CUs?

Oh, and Developers (not Sony people) said that Sony's GPU has Sony's implementation of Mesh Shaders and VRS, they just are executed earlier in the pipeline, mostly within the GE (Sony's real secret sauce)

 

[kyliethicc]

I really wish we can play PS123 in PS5, i'm really in the mood on playing(re) MGS collection HD right now, i don't even think it's hard to implement that BC feature isn't.

I almost starting suspect Sony did it in purpose to give a 1 win point for Microsoft's Xbox. But they need to know that i'm not gonna buy Xbox just because it has BC, specially since most classic dope games aren't on Xbox also so.

Sony hurry up and put PS123 BC C'moooooon!!!

PS Now

 

[MasterCornholio]

It has been confirmed by a few things IMO. The way in which the PS5 responds to frame-rate dips is different to the XsX going by the graphs we've seen so far. And the smooth drops and smooth recovery shows the CPU isn't getting overwhelmed. The I/O complex and the equivalent work it does that the CPU is free from, hence why they don't waste CPU cores by even offering an SMT disabled mode is further proof. If you are doing compute work that doesn't need predictive branching on a CPU core - when you have idle CUs - then it is because you are forced to - as it is the wrong tool for the job.

The presence of SmartShift also implies the CPU is more efficient, because they are anticipating frequent underutilisation and want to bump excess power to the GPU - most likely because of the IO complex taking away previous PS4 CPU workloads.

I knew that the other things were confirmed but I haven't really seen anything official on the CCXs. Apparently it's said that all the PS5s cores share a common cache. This is opposite to the XSX having two CPU clusters (4 cores each) that have their own cache.

 

[Krisprolls]

For example the XSX does have dedicated hardware for VRS

PS5 has a custom Geometry Engine (so, dedicated hardware too) which acts before VRS, that's why they don't need VRS hardware.

 

[skit_data]

PS5 has a custom Geometry Engine (so, dedicated hardware too) which acts before VRS, that's why they don't need VRS hardware.

This is one of the engineers behind the PS5, right?
Probably one of the best indicators the GE in PS5 has capabilities beyond anything else at the market atm, along with the patents created by Cerny and Naughty Dog developers.

 

[Krisprolls]

This is one of the engineers behind the PS5, right?
Probably one of the best indicators the GE in PS5 has capabilities beyond anything else at the market atm, along with the patents created by Cerny and Naughty Dog developers.

Yes, and his twitter is very interesting to read. He can't say everything obviously, but he already says a lot.

It's extremely technical though, so understanding everything is hard unless you're a dev.

 

[MasterCornholio]

This is one of the engineers behind the PS5, right?
Probably one of the best indicators the GE in PS5 has capabilities beyond anything else at the market atm, along with the patents created by Cerny and Naughty Dog developers.

I remember Cerny did say the GE in the PS5 is fully programmable. I'm guessing that means developers have full controller over when culling takes place. Unfortunately this sounds like something new that they have to learn so it might be a while before we see anything.

 

[skit_data]

I remember Cerny did say the GE in the PS5 is fully programmable. I'm guessing that means developers have full controller over when culling takes place. Unfortunately this sounds like something new that they have to learn so it might be a while before we see anything.

Yeah, it probably will take a couple of years. I found it very interesting to see that devs from Naughty Dog contributed to the patents because if i remember correctly parts of Naughty Dog were also involved in the creation of the ICE team.

It might be an indicator they pretty much have a lot of stuff figured out and are able to support dev teams inside and outside of Sony Studios to be able to start take advantage of the GE earlier than anticipated.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Yeah, it probably will take a couple of years. I found it very interesting to see that devs from Naughty Dog contributed to the patents because if i remember correctly parts of Naughty Dog were also involved in the creation of the ICE team.

It might be an indicator they pretty much have a lot of stuff figured out and are able to support dev teams inside and outside of Sony Studios to be able to start take advantage of the GE earlier than anticipated.

I'm definitely expecting Sonys 1st parties to be the first ones to show it off. Hopefully when they do they will also explain the technology a little better.

 

[Sinthor]

Power is an ambiguous term that could mean many things. Sony fans here are claiming the PS5 is more powerful because of its performance in Assassins Creed so people can believe what they want. I tend to believe that if a console can take an old game and boost its performance with minimal effort and the other console requires a specific release that is an aspect of power especially when we are talking about an 'old' game that should pose no problems at all.

Who says I 'support' Dealer or Colt? I simply stated they don't work for MS so why should what they say be taken over the people producing the console? I will continue to say that people that actually own and play both consoles have more creditability than people who only own one and have emotional opposition to a brand. No one should ever believe that either of these consoles would have a '40-50 fps advantage' over the other except I suppose the XSX again because of their superior performance for BC tittles we already discussed.

Again power should be taken with a grain of salt seeing how as I've stated it could mean many things. You don't like MS's marketing and that's fine but I happen to enjoy the outreach they have with their fans. I like the Tik Toc videos and they can be pretty funny on Twitter. It just make the brand feel more personable than just a faceless corp. pushing a product but that's my personal opinion. In the end it is Sony that is market leader they have the highest standard to uphold. They do ok in some areas and not great in others. They have room for improvement just like MS.

The one problem with your equating power with 'old games' is how those games were designed. Take two games for comparison. Where they both designed with uncapped frame rates, etc.? If so, you might get a power comparison there with how well each console runs the games. But often that isn't the case, so you just can't tell. Does MS encourage devs to develop games for their platform in such a way to make BC more effective in that way? I don't know, but that would be smart. BC isn't something Sony has really focused on in the past, but I agree it's a good thing. Running the vast PS4 library on my PS5 has some good advantages, especially earlier on in a generation and before there aren't hundreds of PS5 native games available, so I agree it's a good point.

Bottom line, I think there are a lot of things to attract players to the Xbox platform. It's a damn good platform. It hasn't had the support that Playstation has over the past few generations and that shows in the games available for it, but it's still a great platform with a ton of games. I always tell people it comes down to the games and ecosystem...not the specific hardware and which console will run a game at 60fps versus another that 'only' averages 59fps. So for people who are really into Halo for example...there you go- get an Xbox. People who want say Metal Gear Solid or Uncharted...get a Playstation.

All our 'nerd comparisons' of tiny differences in frame rate and resolution that most everyone, if not everyone won't even notice without seeing a DF video specific to the issue are fine...but in the real world the fact is that most if not all of those differences aren't noticeable so it comes down to the games. The ecosystem includes the 'value' by the way which is where something like GamePass or PS_ + is a factor.

In the end, play what you want to play and everyone can FUCK OFF if they don't like your choices!

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

The article says that developers have no way to know about the BVH structure used.
Can you explain to me how that's possible if, as you say, they are the ones creating the structure and the traversal?
The function also gets an offset from the root node of the BVH. If, as you say, the ISA doesn't know how the BVH is created and traversed, how can the node to run the intersection on be found?
He also says this:


If what you say is true, custom acceleration structures and traversal schemes should already be allowed, shouldn't it?

No, the article says the RDNA 2 ISA document doesn’t detail what type of BVH tree is used. It also says from some of the info in the ISA document it can be inferred that the RT instructions for RDNA 2 are looking for a BVH4 tree, which is a BVH tree with 4 child nodes per node.

The ISA instructions point to the BVH nodes which are stored in memory, implying the BVH has already been created. How you ask? By the developer using a compute shader. Which is self-evident, because AMD’s RDNA 2 RT hardware solution does not accelerate BVH tree creation or traversal, so why would you expect instructions related to that to be part of the ISA? You wouldn’t.

BVH tree creation is done using a compute shader. Ray/box and ray/triangle intersections tests are done using the dedicated hardware (hence there’s description in the ISA doc). Then BVH tree traversal is also achieved in software using a compute shader.

That final line is referencing HLSL, i.e. DirectX’s high level shader language used for writing custom shaders in Direct3D. The writer is remarking on his desire to see these ISA instructions exposed in HLSL, where currently in DirectX they’re used as part of the DirectRT API in a more restrictive and limited format... of course, being DirectX this has no bearing on PS5.

If we assume what Kostas is saying is true, and the BVH creation and traversal is not exposed in the RDNA2 ISA, how could Sony allow low-level access to that? They won't go lower than the ISA

As above, BVH creation and traversal are not exposed in the RDNA 2 ISA because there exists no hardware accelerating those features to expose to developers in the first place. It has to be done in software using GPU compute shaders.

 

[SSfox]

PS Now

No way i'm gonna play is some streaming service garbage, either it's PSnow, stadia ou xbox cloud, Streaming play is pure trash and that's it. I'll never play in some streaming service stuff even if i got paid to do so.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I'm sorry you didn't read what he wrote about the PS5.
See below for you own satisfaction.
Yes he is a Sony PS5 graphics engineer.
Yes he said it doesn't have ML on it.
And yes he would know more than any of us on here about the matter.

It’s worth nothing that neither doesn’t the XSX, contrary to MS’s claims.

Mixed precision packed math for integer Ops don’t really qualify as dedicated hardware for ML. It’s an advancement to the general integer compute functionality of the graphics and compute array that also benefits ML computation.

Tensor cores are an example of dedicated hardware for ML. Neither console has anything like this.

No way i'm gonna play is some streaming service garbage, either it's PSnow, stadia ou xbox cloud, Streaming play is pure trash and that's it. I'll never play in some streaming service stuff even if i got paid to do so.

Have you been living under a rock?

PS Now is more the equivalent of XCloud+GamePass. On PS Now you can stream or download any game aside from PS3 titles. So it’s not just a streaming service.

 

[Popup]

Someone needs to get these stupid YouTube channels that destroy hardware like PS5's for views to send the bits to a channel that takes high res Die shots rather than throw them in the bin.

 

[Mr. PlayStation]

Demon's Souls remake and Dark Souls Remastered during my time off from work has kept me away. What did I miss here? Anyone kind enough to do a recap of what's current discussion topic and any squabble between people?