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[On Demand]

Id say with the besthesda acquisition Microsoft bled sony out, and im not even a microsoft fan.

Bethesda is a known quantity. There’s nothing shocking nor surprising about removing access to million selling games from another platform.

To me the purchase is a waste since Bethesda games were already on all platforms. MS could have gotten the same results they wanted with gamepass since Bethesda and MS have a close relationship. The only thing MS did was remove games from PlayStation consoles. Yay! Which is anti consumer. But good guy Phil.

 

[Krisprolls]

Id say with the besthesda acquisition Microsoft bled sony out, and im not even a microsoft fan.

More like Xbox division bled itself out. 7.5 billion and they won't even get an Elder Scrolls game this gen... The value looks subpar.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Bethesda is a known quantity. There’s nothing shocking nor surprising about removing access to million selling games from another platform.

To me the purchase is a waste since Bethesda games were already on all platforms. MS could have gotten the same results they wanted with gamepass since Bethesda and MS have a close relationship. The only thing MS did was remove games from PlayStation consoles. Yay! Which is anti consumer. But good guy Phil.

Did the say their games will be exclusive? Quite the contrary. They said their games will have some kind of advantage on XB so most probably timed exclusivity. They never ever stated or implied their games won't release on Playstation. Not once.

 

[Krisprolls]

Bethesda is a known quantity. There’s nothing shocking nor surprising about removing access to million selling games from another platform.

To me the purchase is a waste since Bethesda games were already on all platforms. MS could have gotten the same results they wanted with gamepass since Bethesda and MS have a close relationship. The only thing MS did was remove games from PlayStation consoles. Yay! Which is anti consumer. But good guy Phil.

They didn't remove anything major. You can't pass on 100 million + users installed base and make Bethesda acquisition profitable. Elder Scrolls games will definitely be on PS too. You could only make smaller games gamepass exclusives.

Xbox CFO confirmed as much in an interview iirc.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Compared to a native 4K image you are not generating new detail. And yes, it reduces work compared to rendering a native 4K framebuffer. That's why I said it fitted in @ethomaz definition of lossy. You are doing less work than what you'd do to get a native 4k framebuffer.

Why are you comparing against a natively rendered 4K image?

We're discussing how you'd characterize temporal reconstruction techniques based on, in your own words, the definition that they "do less work to improve perf versus degrading IQ".

You don't start with a native 4K render with any of these techniques. You start with a lower resolution render, which takes x amount of GPU performance to generate. You then do more work to reconstruct to a higher output resolution by increasing pixel density (thus increasing information/IQ, not decreasing).

Based on the context of the discussion your frame of reference for comparison has to be the natively rendered sub-4k base resolution. Not native 4k. Otherwise you're making a benchmark comparison which is irrelevant to your characterization of these temporal reconstruction techniques as "lossy" or otherwise.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Pay in the sense of money..

Because Bo needs the new Sony Alpha 1 camera
7300 euro, dang... 4K/120 8K/30

I was praying it was the A7iv. I was hoping to change cameras this year

 

[onesvenus]

Why are you comparing against a natively rendered 4K image?

Because we were comparing it to VRS. If that can be claimed to be a lossy technique because we are shading with a lower rate than the optimal one (1x1), checkerboarding or temporal reconstruction can also be seen as lossy because we are generating less pixels than the optimal resolution (4k)

 

[FrankWza]

Are console sales the sole metric MS uses to gage success?

That depends. Do they consider being 3rd out of 3 in console sales every gen successful or are they striving for something else? If it’s more about gamepass then a good amount of people are wasting money spending $300 on an s and $500 on a x and are doing a terrible job of making their customers subscribe. They sold a combined 130 million consoles between 360 and xb1 and they only have 15 million gamepass users (because they’re practically giving it away for $1).Another contradiction in their structure that sends mixed signals on what exactly is happening. But then again, they’re never up front about their numbers anyway so....

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Because we were comparing it to VRS. If that can be claimed to be a lossy technique because we are shading with a lower rate than the optimal one (1x1), checkerboarding or temporal reconstruction can also be seen as lossy because we are generating less pixels than the optimal resolution (4k)

I'm baffled that you cannot see how you're changing your basis of comparison in the above two cases.

VRS:
Shading at a lower rate than the base native resolution buffer (i.e. less pixels)

CBR/TR:
Generating more pixels than the base native resolution buffer (i.e. the lower res native image)

You're jumping to native 4K in your comparison with the latter and thus changing your basis of comparison entirely. You're moving the goal posts.

 

[Riky]

Did the say their games will be exclusive? Quite the contrary. They said their games will have some kind of advantage on XB so most probably timed exclusivity. They never ever stated or implied their games won't release on Playstation. Not once.

Well Phil Spencer did imply it when he was asked did he need to release the games on Playstation to make the deal worthwhile and he said he didn't.

They can't actually say anything definitive until the buyout is complete, they've stated this several times. We'll find out then.

 

[sircaw]

Well Phil Spencer did imply it when he was asked did he need to release the games on Playstation to make the deal worthwhile and he said he didn't.

They can't actually say anything definitive until the buyout is complete, they've stated this several times. We'll find out then.

They are not going to pass up on selling their games on ps4/ ps5. If they do, they are idiots.

by all means, put the new fallout or elder scrolls games on game pass, but at the same time put those games on ps5 for 60 bucks a pop. that's at least what i would do. The amount of money just waiting to be hoovered up there is amazing.

Sony is going to win this generation with the hardware sales, no question about it, Microsoft will want to tap into that 100-150 million console base, it makes good business sense, as for the small little indie games, make that shit exclusive, that's not where the big bucks are.

It makes sense, you know it does,

 

[Riky]

They are not going to pass up on selling their games on ps4/ ps5. If they do, they are idiots.

by all means, put the new fallout or elder scrolls games on game pass, but at the same time put those games on ps5 for 60 bucks a pop. that's at least what i would do. The amount of money just waiting to be hoovered up there is amazing.

Sony is going to win this generation with the hardware sales, no question about it, Microsoft will want to tap into that 100-150 million console base, it makes good business sense, as for the small little indie games, make that shit exclusive, that's not where the big bucks are.

It makes sense, you know it does,

Bethesda will become a first party studio. By that line of thinking then Halo, Gears, Fable and Forza will be coming to Playstation to tap into the user base.
Microsoft see their userbase as every Xbox, every Windows PC and now every mobile phone, that dwarfs Playstation.

 

[Dabaus]

Bethesda is a known quantity. There’s nothing shocking nor surprising about removing access to million selling games from another platform.

To me the purchase is a waste since Bethesda games were already on all platforms. MS could have gotten the same results they wanted with gamepass since Bethesda and MS have a close relationship. The only thing MS did was remove games from PlayStation consoles. Yay! Which is anti consumer. But good guy Phil.

More like Xbox division bled itself out. 7.5 billion and they won't even get an Elder Scrolls game this gen... The value looks subpar.

Im just saying sony got cocky and MS Didnt pull any punches. Sony is resting on its laurels while tech giants are looking to buy out the industry from under them. Theres no reason Kadokawa should own Fromsoft or sega bought the persona team awhile back for like 100 million each. Sony is cheap and are paying for it, or will be i should say.

 

[FrankWza]

It makes sense, you know it does

Especially when the ghostwire and Deathloop numbers come in as exclusives on PS5. If the early numbers on hitman 3 are anything to go by they’ll sell incredibly well. It’s just too strong a market to ignore.

 

[FrankWza]

Bethesda will become a first party studio. By that line of thinking then Halo, Gears, Fable and Forza will be coming to Playstation to tap into the user base.
Microsoft see their userbase as every Xbox, every Windows PC and now every mobile phone, that dwarfs Playstation.

I can’t play any of these games on any PlayStation. I can play games from the zeni deal on any PlayStation and can play ghostwire and deathloop exclusively on PS5. That’s the difference

 

[sircaw]

Bethesda will become a first party studio. By that line of thinking then Halo, Gears, Fable and Forza will be coming to Playstation to tap into the user base.
Microsoft see their userbase as every Xbox, every Windows PC and now every mobile phone, that dwarfs Playstation.

Microsoft spent a massive 7.5 billion bucks, that is not chump change.

Sony will dwarf Microsoft in console sales, 3-1, 4-.1 (500-1) that's not even including the ps4 base that is left over.

Missing out on hundreds of millions of customers does not sound smart to me? does it to you?.

Putting it on your own game pass for a monthly fee + selling it on ps5 for maximum profit sounds like having your cake and eat it.

Microsoft likes cake.

You know i am right Riky

 

[Riky]

I can’t play any of these games on any PlayStation. I can play games from the zeni deal on any PlayStation and can play ghostwire and deathloop exclusively on PS5. That’s the difference

The actual difference is that Microsoft didn't own those games but they do own Halo, Gears, Forza and Fable.

Soon Microsoft will own those games.

 

[Riky]

Microsoft spent a massive 7.5 billion bucks, that is not chump change.

Sony will dwarf Microsoft in console sales, 3-1, 4-.1 (500-1) that's not even including the ps4 base that is left over.

Missing out on hundreds of millions of customers do not sound smart to me? does it to you?.

Putting it on your own game pass for a monthly fee + selling it on ps5 for maximum profit sounds like having your cake and eat it.

Microsoft likes cake.

Think logically.

If Microsoft just wanted to get Starfield etc on Gamepass day one they could have done a deal that would be far cheaper than buying the entire business.

But they purchased the entire business.

 

[FrankWza]

The actual difference is that Microsoft didn't own those games but they do own Halo, Gears, Forza and Fable.

Soon Microsoft will own those games.

No. The actual difference is they BOUGHT them. They weren’t developed by them like halo, gears and forza. They bought existing IPs. That’s why I can’t play these games on PlayStation but I can play Ghostwire and Deathloop exclusively on PS5.

 

[Riky]

No. The actual difference is they BOUGHT them. They weren’t developed by them like halo, gears and forza. They bought existing IPs. That’s why I can’t play these games on PlayStation but I can play Ghostwire and Deathloop exclusively on PS5.

Those deals we're done before the purchase, they are only timed exclusives both those games will come to Xbox. What will probably happen is that games like Elder Scrolls Online and Fallout 76 that will have further expansions will continue to be supported on Playstation like Minecraft has, that's what they mean by case by case basis.

I wouldn't think Starfield or Elder Scrolls VI will be released on Playstation at all.

 

[sircaw]

Think logically.

If Microsoft just wanted to get Starfield etc on Gamepass day one they could have done a deal that would be far cheaper than buying the entire business.

But they purchased the entire business.

I am thinking logically, in the end, it's about making money/profit.

Shareholders want to see a profit, Microsoft can not afford to pass up on sony's massive console base.

They can still expand as a gaming business while raking in profits from sony's side.

I am not sure why this is so hard to see, before you reply, just think about that console base that they would not tap into if they went your route. It's colossal.

 

[Krisprolls]

Im just saying sony got cocky and MS Didnt pull any punches. Sony is resting on its laurels while tech giants are looking to buy out the industry from under them. Theres no reason Kadokawa should own Fromsoft or sega bought the persona team awhile back for like 100 million each. Sony is cheap and are paying for it, or will be i should say.

Meanwhile, in the real world, Xbox is still last place and Hitman 3 sales are 75 % Playstation in the UK, a former Xbox territory, so probably 90% Playstation in the rest of Europe.

Sony must be shaking all their way to the bank for sure.

 

[Riky]

I am thinking logically, in the end, it's about making money/profit.

Shareholders want to see a profit, Microsoft can not afford to pass up on sony's massive console base.

They can still expand as a gaming business while raking in profits from sony's side.

I am not sure why this is so hard to see, before you reply, just think about that console base that they would not tap into if they went your route. It's colossal.

The same logic would apply to Gears, Halo, Forza and Fable. Microsoft could make a lot of money porting those games to Playstation, but they don't.

Don't give me the shareholder rubbish, shareholders have little say in publicly run companies, let alone very profitable ones. The Xbox division is a small part of Microsoft, they have put billions into it since the original Xbox, number of shareholder revolts? None.

 

[Dabaus]

Meanwhile, in the real world, Xbox is still last place and Hitman 3 sales are 75 % Playstation in the UK, a former Xbox territory, so probably 90% Playstation in the rest of Europe.

Sony must be shaking all their way to the bank for sure.

I understand that. Xbox IS a laughing stock, Its dead worldwide except maybe 3 countries. I understand all that. What im saying is its an extremely well funded and aggressive dead product and sony cant bank its future on todays success.

 

[FrankWza]

I wouldn't think Starfield or Elder Scrolls VI will be released on Playstation at all.

Maybe not. But the fact that it’s even a possibility is why the zeni IPs can’t be lumped in with halo, gears, and forza. That’s my point.

 

[Riky]

Maybe not. But the fact that it’s even a possibility is why the zeni IPs can’t be lumped in with halo, gears, and forza. That’s my point.

It's only a possibility until Phil Spencer says it isn't, he can't do that legally until the takeover is complete.

 

[sircaw]

The same logic would apply to Gears, Halo, Forza and Fable. Microsoft could make a lot of money porting those games to Playstation, but they don't.

Don't give me the shareholder rubbish, shareholders have little say in publicly run companies, let alone very profitable ones. The Xbox division is a small part of Microsoft, they have put billions into it since the original Xbox, number of shareholder revolts? None.

but Sony people are not interested in games like Halo Forza gears unless they would be part of some ten buck sale on the ps5. Games like The elder scrolls for example would probably sell more than all three games you just listed in the first week at full price on the ps5 if it was available.

It's about the Money m8.

 

[ErRor88]

 

[Riky]

but Sony people are not interested in games like Halo Forza gears unless they would be part of some ten buck sale on the ps5. Games like The elder scrolls for example would probably sell more than all three games you just listed in the first week at full price on the ps5 if it was available.

It's about the Money m8.

"Sony people" are gamers they would snap up those games just like Xbox gamers do, don't be silly.

It is about money and the money is the bonuses paid to the executives which are based on Gamepass subscriber numbers, selling games on Playstation doesn't do that.

We could go round and round on this, facts are until the sale is completed and Microsoft have full control we don't know for sure. We will find out soon enough as it's probably a matter of weeks now.
The one certain thing is I'll be playing Starfield etc on day one as Gamepass Ultimate subscriber so I'm happy about that.

 

[sircaw]

that's pretty interesting.

I wonder how many years they could pay their employees for with that massive amount of cash.

The American technology company Microsoft employs approximately 163,000 people in full-time positions worldwide

 

[ErRor88]

 

[Krisprolls]

I understand that. Xbox IS a laughing stock, Its dead worldwide except maybe 3 countries. I understand all that. What im saying is its an extremely well funded and aggressive dead product and sony cant bank its future on todays success.

Yes, it's well funded and aggressive now, but that's because they're in a last all-in attempt at taking the gaming market with subscriptions. As soon as it fails (if it fails, which in my opinion is likely), they'll bail out like they just did with Mixer. MS is extremely rich but they're not very patient and they're making much better returns in Cloud business (Azure) or Office 365, which means Xbox division makes overall return lower for MS shareholders, on top of not being very relevant in their overall strategy. What you see is just a last ditch attempt. Shareholders mostly wanted to kill Xbox division. For most of them, nothing has changed.

 

[sircaw]

"Sony people" are gamers they would snap up those games just like Xbox gamers do, don't be silly.

It is about money and the money is the bonuses paid to the executives which are based on Gamepass subscriber numbers, selling games on Playstation doesn't do that.

We could go round and round on this, facts are until the sale is completed and Microsoft have full control we don't know for sure. We will find out soon enough as it's probably a matter of weeks now.
The one certain thing is I'll be playing Starfield etc on day one as Gamepass Ultimate subscriber so I'm happy about that.

With VRR enabled I hope.

 

[ErRor88]

that's pretty interesting.

I wonder how many years they could pay their employees for with that massive amount of cash.

The American technology company Microsoft employs approximately 163,000 people in full-time positions worldwide

Indefinitely. I think they got about $138 billion in the bank and if they keep adding 15.5 billion per year...

 

[kyliethicc]

They are not going to pass up on selling their games on ps4/ ps5. If they do, they are idiots.

by all means, put the new fallout or elder scrolls games on game pass, but at the same time put those games on ps5 for 60 bucks a pop. that's at least what i would do. The amount of money just waiting to be hoovered up there is amazing.

Sony is going to win this generation with the hardware sales, no question about it, Microsoft will want to tap into that 100-150 million console base, it makes good business sense, as for the small little indie games, make that shit exclusive, that's not where the big bucks are.

It makes sense, you know it does,

I think the Bethesda games like Starfield will debut on Game Pass and sometimes have exclusive content only on Xbox/PC.

They will probably come out on PS5 like 1-2 years later for $70. So we can wait a few years to buy them for full price on PS5, or get them day 1 on game pass. Something like that.

Its like what that xbox exec said - those games will be "first, better, or best."

 

[Dabaus]

Yes, it's well funded and aggressive now, but that's because they're in a last all-in attempt at taking the gaming market with subscriptions. As soon as it fails (if it fails, which in my opinion is likely), they'll bail out like they just did with Mixer. MS is extremely rich but they're not very patient and they're making much better returns in Cloud business (Azure) or Office 365, which means Xbox division makes overall return lower for MS shareholders, on top of not being very relevant in their overall strategy. What you see is just a last ditch attempt. Shareholders mostly wanted to kill Xbox division. For most of them, nothing has changed.

I agree with you it will failing, its failing right now hence a 100 percent hike on the only profitable part of the xbox division. Its the damage inflicted in the meantime im concerned about.

 

[sircaw]

I think the Bethesda games like Starfield will debut on Game Pass and sometimes have exclusive content only on Xbox/PC.

They will probably come out on PS5 like 1-2 years later for $70. So we can wait a few years to buy them for full price on PS5, or get them day 1 on game pass. Something like that.

Its like what that xbox exec said - those games will be "first, better, or best."

I can see your points and agree, the only thing i would say is 1-2 years is so long. 6 months max for me, that is an eternity to wait for a game to come to your console, especially if its one you have been looking forward to for years.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Office coming to XSX, SWEET!

 

[Riky]

Awaiting that shareholder revolt that's been coming since 2001 with the original Xbox according to some

 

[kyliethicc]

Well Phil Spencer did imply it when he was asked did he need to release the games on Playstation to make the deal worthwhile and he said he didn't.

They can't actually say anything definitive until the buyout is complete, they've stated this several times. We'll find out then.

This is definitely not confirmed. Nor are you really correct on your statement.

Future Bethesda Games Will Be 'First, Better, or Best' on Xbox

Xbox Chief Financial Officer Tim Stuart discusses a new first or better or best policy for future Bethesda game releases on Xbox platforms.

gamerant.com

First = timed exclusive = also on PS5
Better / Best = Game Pass vs $70, exclusive content, modes, etc = also on PS5

 

[Krisprolls]

That's a dumb analogy. If anything, it shows how costly (too costly ?) this Bethesda acquisition was, since it cost half of the full yearly profits of the whole MS corporation...

People think MS is a Saudi Prince wasting money left and right like they don't care, but that's not at all how businesses are run. They got rich by not wasting money stupidly actually.

If a division doesn't make sense strategically and bleeds money or even has low return compared to the others (like Xbox definitely has), it's generally axed, sooner or later.

 

[sircaw]

Awaiting that shareholder revolt that's been coming since 2001 with the original Xbox according to some

They have pitchforks and spears and are at the front gate, you cant hear that?>

 

[TheRedRiders]

Yes, it's well funded and aggressive now, but that's because they're in a last all-in attempt at taking the gaming market with subscriptions. As soon as it fails (if it fails, which in my opinion is likely), they'll bail out like they just did with Mixer. MS is extremely rich but they're not very patient and they're making much better returns in Cloud business (Azure) or Office 365, which means Xbox division makes overall return lower for MS shareholders, on top of not being very relevant in their overall strategy. What you see is just a last ditch attempt. Shareholders mostly wanted to kill Xbox division. For most of them, nothing has changed.

Reminds me of this:

 

[kyliethicc]

I can see your points and agree, the only thing i would say is 1-2 years is so long. 6 months max for me, that is an eternity to wait for a game to come to your console, especially if its one you have been looking forward to for years.

That's the point lol. They will want you to get Game Pass if you can't wait.

Its like how FF7 remake, FF16, and Project Athia are all 1-2 year exclusives on PS4/5.

 

[IntentionalPun]

They didn't remove anything major. You can't pass on 100 million + users installed base and make Bethesda acquisition profitable. Elder Scrolls games will definitely be on PS too. You could only make smaller games gamepass exclusives.

Xbox CFO confirmed as much in an interview iirc.

This is definitely not confirmed. Nor are you really correct on your statement.

Need to understand just how insanely profitable wide-scale subscription services are.

The problem for MS is that they may not ever scale their services to their desires. But if it works out for them, the Bethesda acquisition might be key to that.

41 million people spending $15 a month for a year is around $7.5 billion. (not trying to say that's the math they are using, or that it's all profit for them alone, or that Bethesda is the only cost, but just giving you idea of how quickly a $15 a month service can generate revenue in general.)

And sub services are just insanely consistent in revenue, and make your business far more risk averse. And everything you make becomes part of a growing back-catalog that might get future buyers interested, even if someone doesn't jump in today.

To some extent, MS can't afford to NOT make Bethesda games exclusive, as their entire long-term strategy is about people buying their services who aren't currently buying them, and being willing to spend $15 a month on them or maybe more.

Sony is almost certainly considering a day-one sub service too, you can count on that.

 

[sircaw]

Reminds me of this:

I still got my madbox on order, it's meant to be coming one of these days.

Wish they would update me with an email ffs, especially after all the money i spent

 

[ErRor88]

That's a dumb analogy. If anything, it shows how costly (too costly ?) this Bethesda acquisition was, since it cost half of the full yearly profits of the whole MS corporation...

People think MS is a Saudi Prince wasting money left and right like they don't care, but that's not at all how businesses are run. They got rich by not wasting money stupidly actually.

If a division doesn't make sense strategically and bleeds money or even has low return compared to the others, it's generally axed, sooner or later.

IMO, what he's saying is that the Bethesdas purchase is nothing to MS as they make double that in a year.

 

[Riky]

That's a dumb analogy. If anything, it shows how costly (too costly ?) this Bethesda acquisition was, since it cost half of the full yearly profits of the whole MS corporation...

People think MS is a Saudi Prince wasting money left and right like they don't care, but that's not at all how businesses are run. They got rich by not wasting money stupidly actually.

If a division doesn't make sense strategically and bleeds money or even has low return compared to the others, it's generally axed, sooner or later.

It's not a cost it's a balance sheet asset.

It's also not half the yearly profit, it's three months

 

[sircaw]

This is definitely not confirmed. Nor are you really correct on your statement.

Need to understand just how insanely profitable wide-scale subscription services are.

The problem for MS is that they may not ever scale their services to their desires. But if it works out for them, the Bethesda acquisition might be key to that.

41 million people spending $15 a month for a year is around $7.5 billion. (not trying to say that's the math they are using, or that it's all profit for them alone, or that Bethesda is the only cost, but just giving you idea of how quickly a $15 a month service can generate revenue in general.)

And sub services are just insanely consistent in revenue, and make your business far more risk averse. And everything you make becomes part of a growing back-catalog that might get future buyers interested, even if someone doesn't jump in today.

To some extent, MS can't afford to NOT make Bethesda games exclusive, as their entire long-term strategy is about people buying their services who aren't currently buying them, and being willing to spend $15 a month on them or maybe more.

Sony is almost certainly considering a day-one sub service too, you can count on that.

Without a doubt this is coming.

 

[Tchu-Espresso]

Yeah, after Hitman 2, I'm not wasting my money on that garbage. AI is the biggest problem in the game, and AI should be the main thing in such a game. The scores seem too high and deceiving like Hitman 2.

It could be worse. It could have Cyberpunks AI.