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[DeepEnigma]

I'm aware, but he talked about PS3 and how difficult it was for devs when he talked about PS4, and he talked about.. changing that dramatically for PS4.



Oh.. probably..

BTW a quote DF interview:



Ok.. so no answer to my question? lol

The PS3's Cell prepared devs to start utilizing GPGPU without it being too alien to them. It had a very familiar setup, but now it is used regularly from PC to PS due to the tools maturing and the years of experience with that setup.

 

[IntentionalPun]

You are becoming even more crazy lol

“Cerny shared little, except to say that PS5 design...”

lol

Well if you want to call what Richard wrote a lie it is up for you... just say “I don’t believe in what Richard wrote about what Cerny said”.

You really just don't know how quotes work.. he's paraphrasing the entire road to PS5.

Of course Cerny stressed advantages over PC... we all know that.

He never said the PS5 would be hard to master... those are 2 entirely different things.. advantage != hard to master... and the main advantage is I/O.. which obviously PS5 has better I/O.. but XSX is also a huge leap itself. We have no idea how far the average dev is going to push I/O.

 

[MasterCornholio]

He basically said you don't have to do anything as a developer and the system will take care of it for you at great performance, but, he also said if they wanted to dig deeper and over the years as they learn more tricks, they can exploit it much further than "out of the box" configs.

One of the things I found really interesting was when he talked about the geometry engine. It seems to me there's a learning curve for it and developers will take advantage of it years down the line. I'm pretty interested to see what they do with it.

As for the I/O Cerny did talk about how it allows a change in game design due to previous I/O being too slow for it. That's also something I'm interested in seeing. Hopefully Ratchet is a peek into what's possible with game design.

 

[IntentionalPun]

The PS3's Cell prepared devs to start utilizing GPGPU without it being too alien to them. It had a very familiar setup, but now it is used regularly from PC to PS due to the tools maturing and the years of experience with that setup.

Sony has literally admitted it was hard to program for.. with that bizarre Kaz quote:

Sony: PS3 is hard to develop for--on purpose

The Japanese electronics powerhouse is making it hard on developers to create games for the PlayStation 3, and believe it or not, the company is fine with that.

www.cnet.com

"We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?" explained Hirai.

Huh? But his explanation didn't end there.

"So it's a kind of--I wouldn't say a double-edged sword--but it's hard to program for," Hirai continued, "and a lot of people see the negatives of it, but if you flip that around, it means the hardware has a lot more to offer."

Cerny was adamant that they had changed their attitude.. making the PS4 far more easy to program for. Since then Cerny has continued to stress ease of development..

Which doesn't mean the PS5 won't see lots of optimization.. potentially more than XSX over time.. but we have no clue to which extent, or which console will see more optimization.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Sony has literally admitted it was hard to program for.. with that bizarre Kaz quote:

Sony: PS3 is hard to develop for--on purpose

The Japanese electronics powerhouse is making it hard on developers to create games for the PlayStation 3, and believe it or not, the company is fine with that.

www.cnet.com

Cerny was adamant that they had changed their attitude.. making the PS4 far more easy to program for.

No shit, nobody is arguing it wasn't hard to program for, but that is also what made them grasp GPGPU on the PS4 more easily. Similar ways of coding that they finally figured out through the PS3 generation.

 

[IntentionalPun]

No shit, nobody is arguing it was hard to program for, but that is also what made them grasp GPGPU on the PS4 more easily, was due to similar ways of coding that they finally figured out through the PS3 generation.

Huh?

You said this about the PS3:

"The PS3's Cell prepared devs to start utilizing GPGPU without it being too alien to them. It had a very familiar setup"

How are you "no-shitting" me after saying that? There was nothing familiar about the PS3 to devs.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Huh?

You said this about the PS3:

"The PS3's Cell prepared devs to start utilizing GPGPU without it being too alien to them. It had a very familiar setup"

How are you "no-shitting" me after saying that?

My god!

 

[LucasBR]

 

[MasterCornholio]

Sony has literally admitted it was hard to program for.. with that bizarre Kaz quote:

Sony: PS3 is hard to develop for--on purpose

The Japanese electronics powerhouse is making it hard on developers to create games for the PlayStation 3, and believe it or not, the company is fine with that.

www.cnet.com

Cerny was adamant that they had changed their attitude.. making the PS4 far more easy to program for. Since then Cerny has continued to stress ease of development..

Which doesn't mean the PS5 won't see lots of optimization.. potentially more than XSX over time.. but we have no clue to which extent, or which console will see more optimization.

This also helps show that.

This is definitely going to help developers a lot. The biggest mistake that Sony made with the PS3 was it's ease of development. I'm happy that developers don't have to go through that again.

Although I'll admit that the PS3 helped the ICE team develop some extremely good tools and Sonys 1st parties learned a lot from the PS3.

 

[Riky]

So what made you change your mind?

I remember you saying the XSS would be pushing the PS5 hard but then the XSX is on par with it.

Did the comparisons have something to do with it?

If they did then you do have a general idea on what you think the performance differences will be like and that's before we even see next gen games.

Also what makes the label RDNA2 so special?

I haven't changed my mind, I made almost exactly the same post months ago. As for Series S everyone with a brain knew that was a tongue in cheek post but obviously VRS, Mesh Shaders and SFS will be big for Series S also, I think it's a very nice little box and I'm glad I got one.
Those features are going to save a lot of performance between them for Xbox so yeah I think RDNA2 will matter. Gears 5 looks amazing with tier 2 VRS and that's just the beginning.

 

[IntentionalPun]

My god!

Do you know how words work?

You claimed the PS3 wasn't too alien to devs.. and that it had a very famiar setup.

That's how those sentences work.. if you wanted to claim the PS4 was familar you should have, I dunno, maybe typed the words PS4?

You only explained yourself in the next post.. go no shit yourself.

Here you go, maybe you skipped 3rd grade:

Sentence Subjects

guidetogrammar.org

edit: I see our Brazilian friend who thinks way too highly of his English skills finds this funny

 

[MasterCornholio]

I haven't changed my mind, I made almost exactly the same post months ago. As for Series S everyone with a brain knew that was a tongue in cheek post but obviously VRS, Mesh Shaders and SFS will be big for Series S also, I think it's a very nice little box and I'm glad I got one.
Those features are going to save a lot of performance between them for Xbox so yeah I think RDNA2 will matter. Gears 5 looks amazing with tier 2 VRS and that's just the beginning.

So your still saying that because of RDNA2 the XSS is on par with the PS5?

That means you don't believe there's a small difference between the XSX and the PS5.

As for RDNA2 features Sony chose not to have them. Ever wonder why?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Do you know how words work?

You claimed the PS3 wasn't too alien to devs.. and that it had a very famiar setup.

That's how those sentences work.. if you wanted to claim the PS4 was familar you should have, I dunno, maybe typed the words PS4?

You only explained yourself in the next post.. go no shit yourself.

I never once claimed that.

WTF dude?!

I said that it helped them be more comfortable with GPGPU after 8 years of working with a similar design in the Cell. That's it. Nothing about "PS3 was easy," only that it's difficulties that they later overcame most of and tools they developed made it so GPGPU wasn't so "alien" going into the PS4 gen.

That is how words work. Is English your first language? Not meant as an insult, but my man, how you put words in my mouth on my statement, then try and double down I'll never know.

 

[FrankWza]

Jeez, how absolutely pitiful it must be to go to such lengths in order to paint the picture you're trying to paint. You've reached the the pinnacle of console warring. There's fanboys of all sorts, but that's really some next level/prestige type fanboying type stuff. I'm actually kind of impressed.

These sarcastic posts you make feigning sympathy are Whats pitiful. The I/O being discussed is the biggest difference between the systems. It’s also the one area that hasn’t been utilized in a console until now. If “tools” are still being worked out on the x side, then it’s safe to say I/O is as well. Now, they both utilize it in their architecture, but PS5 has twice the potential and its the biggest discrepancy between these 2 systems.
Neither console has reached its ceiling, but we don’t know how high it is for either because there is no precedent for knowing what the I/O is capable of. Is it already the reason that the systems are neck and neck? Maybe a little, but there’s still room to grow and utilize it further. If the x advantage is evident in hitman 3, the potential advantage of the PS5 I/O is at least equal to that respective to that component. If it is, there’s going to be some angry people in here. I know these early results are a lot to take. We all know. We can read posts and understand tone. The thing that is certain right now, today, is that nobody who purchased an x was expecting this to happen. You were sold on it being the “most powerful console ever” because that’s what they came out and said. They changed that to “most powerful Xbox” for areason. So, if you want to wait for the console you purchased to reach the potential you were promised, that’s great. But as it stand now, they are neck and neck. So you would need a lot of growth on one side and you’d need the PS5 to go backwards in order for the promise made to you to be fulfilled. And that’s not going to happen.

 

[Riky]

So your still saying that because of RDNA2 the XSS is on par with the PS5?

That means you don't believe there's a small difference between the XSX and the PS5.

As for RDNA2 features Sony chose not to have them. Ever wonder why?

I never actually even said that

Let's see the Sony version of VRS then, they chose not to go the AMD route but even on their own hardware and first party software we haven't seen any sign of it. Ever wonder why?

 

[IntentionalPun]

I never once claimed that.

Yes.. you did.. read your damn post dude. The only subject you brought up, was the PS3. That's how grammar works.

That is how words work. Is English your first language? Not meant as an insult, but my man, how you put words in my mouth on my statement, then try and double down I'll never know.

Yes, is it yours?

Again, re-read your post.. notice how the PS3 is the only subject of your post.. I know what you MEANT now, but it's not what you said, you failed to bring the PS4 into the conversation.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Yes.. you did.. read your damn post dude. The only subject you brought up, was the PS3. That's how grammar works.



Yes, is it yours?

Again, re-read your post.. notice how the PS3 is the only subject of your post.. I know what you MEANT now, but it's not what you said, you failed to bring the PS4 into the conversation.

The PS3's Cell prepared devs to start utilizing GPGPU without it being too alien to them. It had a very familiar setup, but now it is used regularly from PC to PS due to the tools maturing and the years of experience with that setup.

Where did I say the PS3 was easy to develop for?

I'll wait.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I never actually even said that

Let's see the Sony version of VRS then, they chose not to go the AMD route but even on their own hardware and first party software we haven't seen any sign of it. Ever wonder why?

Maybe because they have their own solution?

Also you still haven't answered why you think the XSS will push the PS5 hard because it has RDNA2.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Where did I say the PS3 was easy to develop for?

I'll wait.

Dude.. read the post you just quoted, and denied saying...

You just quoted me saying "You claimed the PS3 wasn't too alien to devs.. and that it had a very famiar setup."

Your response "I never once claimed that.", and you insulted my English skills.

How did the PS3 have a very familiar setup? How was it not too alien to devs?

Do you read the posts you respond to?

Yes/No

PLZ RSPND

 

[Riky]

Maybe because they have their own solution?

Also you still haven't answered why you think the XSS will push the PS5 hard because it has RDNA2.

Why haven't we seen that solution then?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Why haven't we seen that solution then?

Why does it have to be noticeable then?

You're telling me that Sony chose to toss RDNA2 into the trash even though those features provide a big performance benefit. You really need to ask why they did that.

• "That feature set is malleable. ...and that can factor into what AMD roadmap becomes. So, collaboration is born. If we bring concepts to AMD that are felt to be widely useful then they can be adopted to RDNA2 and used broadly including in PC GPUs. If the ideas are sufficiently specific to what we're trying to accomplish like the GPU Cache Scrubbers I was talking about, then they end up being just for us. If you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console, that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded in producing technology useful in both worlds. It doesn't mean we at Sony simply incorporated the PC part into our console."

 

[DeepEnigma]

Dude.. read the post you just quoted, and denied saying...

You just quoted me saying "You claimed the PS3 wasn't too alien to devs.. and that it had a very famiar setup."

How did the PS3 have a very familiar setup? How was it not too alien to devs?

GPGPU is very familiar to the Cell with how you code for it. So after working 8 years with the Cell, they were able to take advantage of said feature without ignoring it completely (if the PS3 never existed in its form at all.) My statement is simple, you are reading too far into it.

All I was saying, was all that hard work and challenge on the PS3, turned out to be a silver lining with tackling GPGPU and utilizing that specific feature of offloading CPU tasks to the GPU on the PS4.

 

[LiquidRex]

 

[Riky]

Why does it have to be noticeable then?

You're telling me that Sony chose to toss RDNA2 into the trash even though those features provide a big performance benefit. You really need to ask why they did that.

Why not talk about it like MS and AMD have? Show the benefits, are you saying they are using something like VRS and nobody has noticed or knows about it?

 

[LiquidRex]

Mesh shaders

 

[ethomaz]

True? Fake?

I’m more lined to true side.

 

[skit_data]

Why not talk about it like MS and AMD have? Show the benefits, are you saying they are using something like VRS and nobody has noticed or knows about it?

Matt Hargett, one of the engineers behind PS5 has talked about functions that are equal or better than VRS in the Geometry Engine. Activision lead artists have said it has capabilities similar to VRS.

Do you expect Sony to disclose it in a similar fashion to Series X hotchips conference?
Well, Sony doesnt seem to be very keen in doing that kind of stuff, we havent even seen a dieshot.

Are you also doubting the existence of an actual die inside the PS5?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Why not talk about it like MS and AMD have? Show the benefits, are you saying they are using something like VRS and nobody has noticed or knows about it?

Well you tell me why Sony chose not to have full RDNA2 in the PS5.

Apparently it seems like you believe that Sony chose not to have any performance saving features.

 

[IntentionalPun]

GPGPU is very familiar to the Cell with how you code for it. So after working 8 years with the Cell, they were able to take advantage of said feature without ignoring it completely (if the PS3 never existed in its form at all.) My statement is simple, you are reading too far into it.

All I was saying, was all that hard work and challenge on the PS3, turned out to be a silver lining with tackling GPGPU and utilizing that specific feature of offloading CPU tasks to the GPU on the PS4.

Like I said.. I get what you MEANT now.. it is not what you SAID because the subject of those sentences was the PS3... I get that you meant "so the PS4 wasn't alien to them, it had a familiar setup" but you missed actually mentioning it lol

Hence my initial response confused why you seemed to be suggesting the PS3 wasn't difficult to develop for, when you meant the PS4 wasn't partly due to the PS3 getting them used to things.

It does go quite a bit beyond mere familiarity.. Sony also kept PS3 tooling and documentation internal, as Cerny sort of apologized for.. during the PS4 era Sony changed their tune and became 3rd party focused.. creating better tools, and sharing them with devs early. Cerny was in fact involved in that tooling on PS3, but not the actual design..

 

[SlimySnake]

Mesh Shader test. 6800 all the way below the 1050. It seems this test favors the Nvidia cards because even with Mesh Shaders off, the shittiest nvidia cards are outperforming the best AMD cards. The percentage difference is what we should look out for and the performance increase with Mesh Shaders on seems to be roughly on par with the 2080 Ti.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Like I said.. I get what you MEANT now.. it is not what you SAID because the subject of those sentences was the PS3... I get that you meant "so the PS4 wasn't alien to them, it had a familiar setup" but you missed actually mentioning it lol

Hence my initial response confused why you seemed to be suggesting the PS3 wasn't difficult to develop for, when you meant the PS4 wasn't partly due to the PS3 getting them used to things.

It does go quite a bit beyond mere familiarity.. Sony also kept PS3 tooling and documentation internal, as Cerny sort of apologized for.. during the PS4 era Sony changed their tune and became 3rd party focused.. creating better tools, and sharing them with devs early. Cerny was in fact involved in that tooling on PS3, but not the actual design..

I literally mentioned it in the first sentence.

The PS3's Cell prepared devs to start utilizing GPGPU without it being too alien to them. It had a very familiar setup, but now it is used regularly from PC to PS due to the tools maturing and the years of experience with that setup.

But anyways, we are on the same page now.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Mesh Shader test. 6800 all the way below the 1050. It seems this test favors the Nvidia cards because even with Mesh Shaders off, the shittiest nvidia cards are outperforming the best AMD cards. The percentage difference is what we should look out for and the performance increase with Mesh Shaders on seems to be roughly on par with the 2080 Ti.

That's kinda wild.. I hope 3D Mark or AMD comment on this test and why even the base performs so poorly on RDNA 2.

 

[kyliethicc]

 

[IntentionalPun]

I literally mentioned it in the first sentence.

Dude.. you do not mention the PS4 lol.

But yes, we are on the same page on what you meant, but not how sentences work lol

edit: I see you mean GPGPU... but bro, that's hardly clear lol.. I had to google what that meant to realize you are referring to PS4.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Dude.. you do not mention the PS4 lol.

But yes, we are on the same page on what you meant, but not how sentences work lol

edit: I see you mean GPGPU... but bro, that's hardly clear lol.. I had to google what that meant to realize you are referring to PS4.

GPGPU wasn't introduced until the PS4, then later made it's way into desktop parts shortly after. It was one of the AMD partnership customizations along with FP16, checkerboard rendering, and others.

 

[saintjules]

True? Fake?

I’m more lined to true side.

It's interesting indeed. KatharsisT is an insider, alongside Navtra I believe. Decent track record.

 

[IntentionalPun]

GPGPU wasn't introduced until the PS4, then later made it's way into desktop parts shortly after. It was one of the AMD partnership customizations along with FP16, checkerboard rendering, and others.

I guess I just wasn't aware of the acronym; isn't that what CUDA is for the nVidia GPUs?

edit: And do you have any links about The Cell making the PS4 familiar in design? I thought the cell was just similar to programmable shaders.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I guess I just wasn't aware of the acronym; isn't that what CUDA is for the nVidia GPUs?

edit: And do you have any links about The Cell making the PS4 familiar in design? I thought the cell was just similar to programmable shaders.

CUDA is their API similar to GPGPU, but I don't believe at the time they offloaded CPU tasks when the PS4 launched. They may do it now as tools grow. But also, CPUs are more powerful than ever so it's not needed as much compared to running Jaguars which were already less performant than the Cell. It was a good procedure to get around a lot of the Jaguar's anemic performance, but both console makers had no choice jumping into the APUs at the time, since they were diving in for the long-term roadmaps. Growing pains.

As for talks and comparisons, I will have to track down some old GDC ones. Run searches on here and even in this thread and there were software developers much smarter than I on the subject discussing it.

 

[Gaelyon]

I just talked with Rikychard and he told me PS5 is already at 120%. X is at 65% at best.

Well at least that explain the PS5 coil whine... ^_^

 

[Zheph]

Well at least that explain the PS5 coil whine... ^_^

Mine must be running at 50%

 

[IntentionalPun]

CUDA is their API similar to GPGPU, but I don't believe at the time they offloaded CPU tasks when the PS4 launched. They may do it now as tools grow. But also, CPUs are more powerful than ever so it's not needed as much compared to running Jaguars which were already less performant than the Cell. It was a good procedure to get around a lot of the Jaguar's anemic performance, but both console makers had no choice jumping into the APUs at the time, since they were diving in for the long-term roadmaps. Growing pains.

As for talks and comparisons, I will have to track down some old GDC ones. Run searches on here and even in this thread and there were software developers much smarter than I on the subject discussing it.

I searched and found Cerny making a statement; but he's talking about the familiarity devs had w/ X86 + GPU, and he seems to be suggesting the opposite of that being familiar to the CELL. (although the article is paraphrasing a bit and not directly quoting him about the Cell being "unfamiliar")

news

news

www.gamasutra.com

The PlayStation 3 was very powerful, but its unfamiliar CELL processor stymied developers. "There was huge performance there, but in order to unlock that performance, you really needed to study it and learn unique ways of using the hardware," said Cerny.

That situation led directly to the PS4's design philosophy: "The hope with PlayStation 4 was to have a powerful architecture, but also an architecture that would be a very familiar architecture in many ways."

In fact, this is something Cerny returned to again and again during the conversation. "We want to make sure that the hardware is easy to use. And so having the familiar CPU and the familiar GPU definitely makes it easier to use," he said.

The only parallel drawn to Cell in that interview/article:

This concept grew out of the software Sony created, called SPURS, to help programmers juggle tasks on the CELL's SPUs -- but on the PS4, it's being accomplished in hardware.

The team, to put it mildly, had to think ahead. "The time frame when we were designing these features was 2009, 2010. And the timeframe in which people will use these features fully is 2015? 2017?" said Cerny.

"Our overall approach was to put in a very large number of controls about how to mix compute and graphics, and let the development community figure out which ones they want to use when they get around to the point where they're doing a lot of asynchronous compute."

Not sure what you mean by CUDA not offloading CPU.. one of the first big uses of CUDA was offloading physics from the CPU w/ PhysX... which got popular years before the PS4 released.

 

[DJ12]

Or it's none of those things and just optimization issues, as shown by Dirt 5 with the 120hz settings bug, once people accepted it was a bug then people tried pretending that performance would go down when the proper settings were restored, what actually happened is the opposite, performance went up.

No no, it went down.

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

Hearsay about the Bluepoint acquisition by Sony being a done deal, but not sure about when the announcement will happen

Btw, don't doubt it for a second, actually would bet on it.

 

[M1chl]

True? Fake?

I’m more lined to true side.

So uhm....what are they saing?

 

[kyliethicc]

Hearsay about the Bluepoint acquisition by Sony being a done deal, but not sure about when the announcement will happen

Btw, don't doubt it for a second, actually would bet on it.

Ya it does seem likely that Sony buy them.

 

[ethomaz]

So uhm....what are they saing?

Something like that.

"I don't know the time of the announcement but I have been told Bluepoint acquisition was on table and already done".

 

[IntentionalPun]

Sony buying Bluepoint would be the least surprising news in history lol

I like Sony's moves, but they are... interesting.. as they are w/ studios that have seemingly already mostly been exclusive to them anyways. I have to wonder if the pattern encourages other devs to seek Sony exclusivity.. Sony's dominant market position already does that to some extent.

 

[LiquidRex]

if interested

 

[DeepEnigma]

I searched and found Cerny making a statement; but he's talking about the familiarity devs had w/ X86 + GPU, and he seems to be suggesting the opposite of that being familiar to the CELL. (although the article is paraphrasing a bit and not directly quoting him about the Cell being "unfamiliar")

news

news

www.gamasutra.com

The only parallel drawn to Cell in that interview/article:



Not sure what you mean by CUDA not offloading CPU.. one of the first big uses of CUDA was offloading physics from the CPU w/ PhysX... which got popular years before the PS4 released.

You are right about physics, but I thought that didn't come until after they made their PhysX cards and API. Once they did away with them, they did CUDA.

GPGPU can also process 3D audio and the like with the design AMD/PS4 customized if I remember correctly. CUDA can now as well I believe. So yes, both APIs offer similar goals.

Search in this thread and Beyond3D with the Cell comparisons to certain GPGPU tasks on the PS4. I will try and find them later as well.

 

[kyliethicc]

Sony Patents DualSense Haptic Events For Pre-Recorded Videos Or Streams

The new DualSense controller features an improved form of haptic feedback technology which allows PlayStation 5 players to physically feel sensations

segmentnext.com

"According to a published patent from last week, haptic feedback events can be encoded in an audio-video stream so that they are triggered for spectators on demand. The filing notes that the streams can be pre-recorded but presumably, the same patented technology can cover live streams as well. Hence, players watching online footage of a game while holding a DualSense controller for example can experience haptic feedback events on cue."