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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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mitchman

Gold Member
I honestly do think, with Japan Studio being downsized, that Media Molecule will get shut down next.

Dreams was shown off when the PS4 was revealed in Feb 2013. It shipped 7 YEARS later lol.

I think Sony would rather just hire Sumo Digital to make another fun Sackboy platformer game.


I've been playing multiple PS4 games online, works fine. Store works too, etc. Weird.
MM is truly innovative and shutting them down would show a greed and lack of diversion not typical for Sony. Their team is not that large so as long as they can innovate and create great "experiences" that makes money, there is no reason to shut them down.
 

devilNprada

Member
lol im like 99% sure thats the next sony studio thats getting canned. dreams flopped after it took like 10 years to make.
That sucks Dreams is a fantastic game.. Not so sure is was for sales as much as it is to create interest..
Sony puts on a lot of classes for middle school aged kids to learn game designing, simply to find interest.

If all games were about making money Xbox would close most of their studios wouldn't they?
(I kid)
 
I honestly do think, with Japan Studio being downsized, that Media Molecule will get shut down next.

Dreams was shown off when the PS4 was revealed in Feb 2013. It shipped 7 YEARS later lol.

I think Sony would rather just hire Sumo Digital to make another fun Sackboy platformer game.


I've been playing multiple PS4 games online, works fine. Store works too, etc. Weird.

MM has been profitable for years. You can check their financial filings on Company House. They've made a consistent GBP 4m profit each year for the past five to size years, with FY2020 the first time they've made a loss and it was a small (300k) one. They're a small team that produces incredible forward-thinking tech. There's no reason at all to shut them down.

I don't understand the boner the internet seems to have for wanting this team closed.

There's no way Dreams made money tho. That's the issue.

The above link provides definitive proof that the game must have made money. The studio has made consistent profits up until 2020. And Dreams didn't launch in 2020.
 
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I hope you're right.
If its a small studio, it won't have astronomical development costs.
I certainly hope MM don't get shuttered, but I honestly don't think they will be. Dreams isn't so much a game as opposed to its own little platform. A tool if you will - one that could prove very useful to Sony in the future.
 

DGrayson

Mod Team and Bat Team
Staff Member
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Lets keep the arguments and discussion more abotu the tech and less personal insults.
 
I think Dreams is pretty great for VR and it would be a good idea to have it updated for PSVR2.
Dreams. Should be on pc it'll be as big as minecraft. The reason it doesn't sell so well is because of console controllers. They don't provide much of the creative freedom that a mouse and keyboard do and. Secondly it's the console memory limitations. Dreams is the most futuristic engine infact it's revolutionary you don't need to worry about polygons it's just infinite point clouds but there's a cost in ram and pcs can have as much ram. So porting it to pc with enhancements and more tools for instance the ability to take a car model from blender or maya and convert it to point clouds or transfer a mesh with amateurs and animations from blender or maya to dreams and still be able to use it as a hybrid engine would be phenomenal it could even rival unreal engine. Sony are sleeping on a gold mine.
 

Lysandros

Member
Don't conflate the extended functionality of the PS5 GE, i.e. customisations in the Next-Gen Geometry (NNG) fast path, with the hardware culling unit that sits in the traditional fixed-function geometry processing steps of the traditional render path.

You can't take credit for PS5's 22% clocks for culling versus the XSX when using the NGG fast path and primitive shaders to cull earlier in the pipeline, because when using the NGG fast path the fixed function culling unit it not used. It sits on the traditional data path which is independent.

When using the NGG fast path culling is done on the shader cores. So like I said, the actual act of culling triangles on PS5 in this mode will be faster than the FF hardware, but a little slower than the XSX; however, the PS5 has the advantage that it can potentially cull earlier.



It only seems counter-intuitive because I think you're thinking that the extended functionality of the PS5 GE using the NGG fast path includes more fixed function hardware for culling, which it doesn't. Culling is done on the shader cores because it's both faster and more flexible, so culling can also be done in a smarter more targeted way. It's absolutely more intuitive to do it on the shader cores because they are really the most logical place to perform such workloads, precisely for the aforementioned reasons.
Thanks for the explanations, i think i see a bit more clearly now. Since you seem to have a deeper knowledge and understanding about these things, i would like to have your insight about a matter that is roaming in my head for some time: We know that ACE/HWS blocks responsible for ASNYC run up to 22% faster in PS5, couldn't this also contribute to higher compute efficiency of PS5 on top other factors such as lower number of CUs clocker higher and cache architecture, thus reduce the real world compute power difference even further?
 
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Thanks for the explanations, i think i see a bit more clearly now. Since you seem to have a deeper knowledge and understanding about these things, i would like to have your insight about a matter that is roaming in my head for some time: We know that ACE/HWS blocks responsible for ASNYC run up to 22% faster in PS5, couldn't this also contribute to higher compute efficiency of PS5 on top other factors such as lower number of CUs clocker higher and cache architecture, thus reduce the real world compute power difference even further?
Does the PS5 have more ACE/HWS engines (vs vanilla RDNA2) for more fine-grain compute?

OG4 PS4 had 4x ACE engines vs vanilla GCN 1.0.
 
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Lysandros

Member
Does the PS5 have more ACE/HWS engines (vs vanilla RDNA2) for more fine-grain compute?

OG4 PS4 had 4x ACE engines vs vanilla GCN 1.0.
PS4 had 8 ACEs. I was also thinking PS5 to have that same number mainly because of BC compability reasons but the majority think this is not needed anymore due to architectural changes made for RDNA. Since RDNA has 4 ACE+1HWS i am assuming the same for PS5/XSX for now..

Edit: But even having the same number of ACEs/HWS, these run at 22% higher frequency compared to XSX so i think PS5 should be a bit more capable at ASYNC.
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Don't conflate the extended functionality of the PS5 GE, i.e. customisations in the Next-Gen Geometry (NNG) fast path, with the hardware culling unit that sits in the traditional fixed-function geometry processing steps of the traditional render path.

You can't take credit for PS5's 22% clocks for culling versus the XSX when using the NGG fast path and primitive shaders to cull earlier in the pipeline, because when using the NGG fast path the fixed function culling unit it not used. It sits on the traditional data path which is independent.

When using the NGG fast path culling is done on the shader cores. So like I said, the actual act of culling triangles on PS5 in this mode will be faster than the FF hardware, but a little slower than the XSX; however, the PS5 has the advantage that it can potentially cull earlier.



It only seems counter-intuitive because I think you're thinking that the extended functionality of the PS5 GE using the NGG fast path includes more fixed function hardware for culling, which it doesn't. Culling is done on the shader cores because it's both faster and more flexible, so culling can also be done in a smarter more targeted way. It's absolutely more intuitive to do it on the shader cores because they are really the most logical place to perform such workloads, precisely for the aforementioned reasons.
Was not part of the discussions and some rumblings post launch that the Enhanced GE itself is programmable and developer can alter its behaviour but need to code explicitly for it (or take it in its automated default form) on top of the shader cores based geometry culling step?
 
PS4 had 8 ACEs. I was also thinking PS5 to have that same number mainly because of BC compability reasons but the majority think this is not needed anymore due to architectural changes made for RDNA. Since RDNA has 4 ACE+1HWS i am assuming the same for PS5/XSX for now..

Edit: But even having the same number of ACEs/HWS, these run at 22% higher frequency compared to XSX so i think PS5 should be a bit more capable at ASYNC.
1 HWS (since Polaris) = 2 old ACEs

Kinda like 1 WGP = 2 old CUs

Was not part of the discussions and some rumblings post launch that the Enhanced GE itself is programmable and developer can alter its behaviour but need to code explicitly for it (or take it in its automated default form) on top of the shader cores based geometry culling step?
I remember ACEs being able to take special microcode (which reminds me of N64 GPU)...
 
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SSfox

Member
MM is truly innovative and shutting them down would show a greed and lack of diversion not typical for Sony. Their team is not that large so as long as they can innovate and create great "experiences" that makes money, there is no reason to shut them down.
Japan Studio isn't large either, and they still shut it down.

Anyway after porting PS games on PC, then shutting down Japan Studio, now wonder what's the next retardation decision that will be make by Jimbo and Hermen 🤷‍♀️
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
The above link provides definitive proof that the game must have made money. The studio has made consistent profits up until 2020. And Dreams didn't launch in 2020.

Dreams did release in 2020... it had been out for a month and a half before their FY2020 end of March results. And their revenue was terrible; a massive step down from years past.

That's sign of a major flop.

I'm also confused by the numbers you are presenting; their records show an operating loss of ~200k for FY2020, and an operating profit of just over 1 million for 2019. They are a company in decline, who launched a game a month and a half before the end of their last financial year, and managed to lose money.. and have 8 million less revenue than the year before.
 
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reksveks

Member
Dreams did release in 2020... it had been out for a month and a half before their FY2020 end of March results. And their revenue was terrible; a massive step down from years past.

That's sign of a major flop.

I'm also confused by the numbers you are presenting; their records show an operating loss of ~200k for FY2020, and an operating profit of just over 1 million for 2019. They are a company in decline, who launched a game a month and a half before the end of their last financial year, and managed to lose money.. and have 8 million less revenue than the year before.

More of a question for the original person but that pdf doesn't seem to show the amount of money that Media Molecule get from games sales as separate from the money to develop a game, no?
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
More of a question for the original person but that pdf doesn't seem to show the amount of money that Media Molecule get from games sales as separate from the money to develop a game, no?
What do you mean?

Media Molecule is owned by Sony, they aren't contracted or anything.

Their revenue took a giant dump in FY2020 compared to FY2019, despite their "next big game" having a month and a half to sell.. it's not a good look financially, and they managed to have an operating loss.
 

reksveks

Member
What do you mean?

Media Molecule is owned by Sony, they aren't contracted or anything.

Their revenue took a giant dump in FY2020 compared to FY2019, despite their "next big game" having a month and a half to sell.. it's not a good look financially, and they managed to have an operating loss.
Ignore me, brain fart. Forgot MM was a Sony studio.
 

Rudius

Member
Did i read that wrong or there isnt a free upgrade for the non extended Death Stranding, i dont want to pay again for it! will plug away now and again at the orignal.
Me neither. I already finished the story, but might go for the platinum if the upgrade is free.
 

kyliethicc

Member
How you gonna do a remaster for the PS4? What am I missing?
This rumor is that Death Stranding is being re-released on PS4 with new story content.

And then on PS5 it will be like 4K / 60 Hz with DualSense support.

The leaker was correct about a lot of PS stuff last year, so there's some credibility.

Could be a new full $60 release, could just be a patch + some paid DLC, idk.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
This rumor is that Death Stranding is being re-released on PS4 with new story content.

And then on PS5 it will be like 4K / 60 Hz with DualSense support.

The leaker was correct about a lot of PS stuff last year, so there's some credibility.

Could be a new full $60 release, could just be a patch + some paid DLC, idk.
Yeah, I get the PS5 stuff. And yeah, that person has been on the money about alot of PS5 stuff, they got the June Future of Gaming showcase correct. (I like that they did that so low key, folks didnt know until looking back at predictions)

Thats why the PS4 remaster seems odd. Is just new story content a remaster?
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Yeah, I get the PS5 stuff. And yeah, that person has been on the money about alot of PS5 stuff, they got the June Future of Gaming showcase correct. (I like that they did that so low key, folks didnt know until looking back at predictions)

Thats why the PS4 remaster seems odd. Is just new story content a remaster?

There is no rumor of a remaster though...

Just an extended edition and PS5 patch.

As far as I can tell the only thing the Restera user implied was a PS5 patch.. not even sure where the web sites are getting anything else from.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Did anyone even finish death stranding lol. After an Hour of walking I was bored as fuck
its a fantastic game. the game doesnt open up until you get to the third chapter which is when the online stuff kicks in and you start to earn all sorts of upgrades, weapons, vehicles and gear.

the first 5-6 hours are meant to be punishing and boring so when you do get to the good stuff you appreciate it more. it's still a walking simulator but i dont think ive ever had this much fun walking in a game ever.

ended up putting in over 150 hours in the game building roads, bridges, ziplines and shelters for other people. I had over 2 million likes when i stopped playing. one bridge i'd built had over 300k likes on its own because it let people cross a chasm on their vehicles instead of taking a 5-10 minute detour.
 
Thanks for the explanations, i think i see a bit more clearly now. Since you seem to have a deeper knowledge and understanding about these things, i would like to have your insight about a matter that is roaming in my head for some time: We know that ACE/HWS blocks responsible for ASNYC run up to 22% faster in PS5, couldn't this also contribute to higher compute efficiency of PS5 on top other factors such as lower number of CUs clocker higher and cache architecture, thus reduce the real world compute power difference even further?

PS5 and XSX have the same number of ACEs and HWS blocks. Fundamentally, these blocks just schedule graphics and compute workloads to the shader arrays. I wouldn't say, however, that the PS5 has an advantage due to these scheduling blocks running at higher clocks. Or if it does, I wouldn't expect it to be major. Fundamentally, MS/AMD aren't going to spec the XSX GPU with a number of ACEs/HWSs insufficient for the overall GPU design. I suspect in which case, PS5 is somewhat over-specced, but it's more likely that the PS5 will find less instances of being bottlenecked by front-end workload scheduling than XSX. Although I don't see workload scheduling being a bottleneck for either console in the prevailing majority of cases.

Was not part of the discussions and some rumblings post launch that the Enhanced GE itself is programmable and developer can alter its behaviour but need to code explicitly for it (or take it in its automated default form) on top of the shader cores based geometry culling step?

My understanding is that the customised GE in PS5 allows for fully programmable Geometry Processing steps in the rendering pipeline. So traditional vertex shading, hull and domain shading steps, can be computed on the shader cores (much faster and in a much more flexible way) using Primitive/Surface Shaders. Culling is included in this.

So the "fully programmable" part of it allows you to write custom PS/SS to do things that simply weren't possible previously, but as you say it needs to be targeted specifically by the developer. All the way back from Vega, it was implemented as a separate data path (AMD calls it the NGG Fast Path) independent from the traditional fixed function render path. NVidia on the other hand, replaces the existing geometry pipeline entirely with the new geometry processing pipeline with Mesh/Task Shaders. So both companies approach the problem in two different ways.

Dreams did release in 2020... it had been out for a month and a half before their FY2020 end of March results. And their revenue was terrible; a massive step down from years past.

That's sign of a major flop.

Dreams was out in open beta form to every rather a bit before 2020. 2020 was a soft launch.

Their revenue dropped but if you look at the other number in their filings it's clear there some other things going on. Fundamentally, you're right their sales revenues were down, but a big chunk of MM's recurring revenue came from LBP and has done for a good many years.

I'm also confused by the numbers you are presenting; their records show an operating loss of ~200k for FY2020, and an operating profit of just over 1 million for 2019. They are a company in decline, who launched a game a month and a half before the end of their last financial year, and managed to lose money.. and have 8 million less revenue than the year before.

1m was only in 2019. Almost every year prior to that going back half a decade their Op profits were around 3.5 to 4m GBP.

Yes their revenue was in decline because their legacy titles were drawing down on their natural sales life-cycles.

Fundamentally, they've been a profitable studio and that's what is important. They only need one new solid title to put them back in the green, and because they're such a small studio with low operating costs, there's no reason to think Sony would want to shut them down. They're extremely talented studio.
 
What do you mean?

Media Molecule is owned by Sony, they aren't contracted or anything.

Their revenue took a giant dump in FY2020 compared to FY2019, despite their "next big game" having a month and a half to sell.. it's not a good look financially, and they managed to have an operating loss.

I mean, they had one bad year after many years of consistent profits.... "close them down!!!!!" isn't the response I see Sony taking.

They're a small team who generally work on extremely innovative, extremely experimental, relatively small titles. Some stuff they do is very profitable (e.g. LBP and Tearaway). Some stuff, not as much.

It's not a reason to shut them down.
 

mitchman

Gold Member
Speak for yourself. To me and a lot others Japan Studio is big loss.
I apologize, I didn't mean to appear belittle them and I'm sure they are a big loss for many, but not a *huge* loss like MM would be to the craft of making innovative games.
 
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