dcmk7
Banned
Absolutely.
And amazing to think that trailer yesterday was all captured in real-time on the PS5.
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And amazing to think that trailer yesterday was all captured in real-time on the PS5.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I would expect a GDC talk on that like they did for Spider-Man with their streaming engine, and showing the difference between standard HDD SATA I/O and what’s in the PS5.
Hawking Radiation
Member
This gifNone, but there are SSD's with same speeds as PS5's. It's Oodle Texture + Kraken doing all the sexy things - and 12 channel flash controller.
SlimySnake posted a gif which reminded me of something.
The level of detail and the geometry reminds me of the Unreal 5 engine demo.
I wouldn't be surprised if Insomniac is doing something similar with asset streaming in Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart. It certainly would fall in line with what Mark was talking about.
Yeah, this is a good point.
The first thing some of us noticed with the new trailer is how much stuff is on screen. Again, I think some ppl are underestimating what we see in the trailer.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
2.0GB/s without data compression, I would guess. Because as always devs with their custom engines done in their bedrooms are going to bother with this. Going through that signature MS API hell.
Gamerguy84
Member
We really should be referring to them as NVMe(xpress) drives because they are a bit different despite the similarities.
The jump from SSD to NVMe was bigger than the jump from sata Hard Drive to SSD.
NVM drives are close to memory that can act as storage because it's persistent. It is way faster than SSD though, as I understand it.
But these are NVMe drives.
The jump from SSD to NVMe was bigger than the jump from sata Hard Drive to SSD.
NVM drives are close to memory that can act as storage because it's persistent. It is way faster than SSD though, as I understand it.
But these are NVMe drives.
8BiTw0LF
Banned
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
did they just downgrade the specs?They actually say compressed in the video.
Hawking Radiation
Member
I just wished the trailer had a piece of gameplay longer than 20 seconds just to get a good look at the world detail.
But from what I've seen, I love it. I'm already itching to get a PS5.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
It's raw read speed.. the data is compressed.They actually say compressed in the video.
Shmunter
Member
You know MS. 12TF, most powerful console, etc. It’s all theatrics and theoretical assumptions.
ethomaz
Banned
Velocity Architecture doesn’t change the hardware I/O bandwidth that is 2.4GB/s at peak.
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Great Hair
Banned
Xbox controller drift lawsuit to be settled out of court
A class action lawsuit that claims Microsoft distributed faulty Xbox controllers has been compelled to arbitration. Thi…
www.gamesindustry.biz
ethomaz
Banned
Same here.
PS5 hardware I/O bandwidth is 5.5GB/s at peak.
Even taking in account overhead difference of the internal vs NVMe slot you will need a bit more bandwidth from a expansion SSD... so I believe ~6GB/s SSDs are ready for PS5 already.
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ethomaz
Banned
The same I/O complex is used for both internal and expansion SSD.
It should have very little difference.
ethomaz
Banned
NVMe is just the SSD controller protocol.
Most of the increase in speed come from the increase of the NAND speeds and channels.
Series X’s SSD is a non-NVMe SSD that WD just updated the controller to support NVMe.
This is the Series X SSD: https://www.westerndigital.com/products/commercial-internal-drives/pc-sn530-ssd
It read speeds are 2.4GB/s but due not having a better controller protocol like NVMe the write speeds are a bit lower and the random tank.
It probably works better with NVMe that WD updated to MS.
Edit - Actually the PCIe was upgraded... not the NVMe support.
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skit_data
Gold Member
Yeah, I did some reading on the subject and I realized I got it wrong
The main point was that one definitely cannot compare the raw speed vs compressed data speed and that the expansion has the same access to the decompressor as the internal does
3liteDragon
Member
So what exactly does the DirectStorage API aim to do? Cause on PC it sounds like the GPU driver overhead is still gonna be there for a few years at least before any major improvements. But this API by the sounds of it, is gonna reduce the I/O overhead on Xbox and PC?
Also, will the Series X|S consoles have GPU overhead (not talking about I/O overhead) because they use the DX12U API?
Also, will the Series X|S consoles have GPU overhead (not talking about I/O overhead) because they use the DX12U API?
Interfectum
Member
They actually say compressed in the video.
Cerny said there will be more info about compatible, white listed drives a lil after launch.
NVMe's with 7GB/s just launched late last year.
Logically.....why would the PS5 need a NVMe thats 17GB/s....... Its more than likely it will need to be 7GB/s. Not 17GB's. When would those even be available?
C'mon.
ethomaz
Banned
Camark explained that the I/O in Windows has a lot of overhead or delay cycle that heavy affect performance... and to counter that they should to use Windows API direct unbuffered calls instead the calls present in DirectX API.
I believe now MS is allowing thought Direct X the use of I/O unbuffered direct calls without pass thought the Windows overhead and so getting the similar performance using the Windows API unbuffered direct calls.
That is what DirectStorage should be about.
He even corrected Tim Epic.
The issue using unbuffered I/O is that you have to code and control yourself... DirectStorage should facilitate that now.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
ohThey actually say compressed in the video.
Shmunter
Member
There are many deficiencies on pc secondary storage that consoles, in particular PS5 has solved.
With PS5, essentially resource free you can take a highly compressed asset and flip it into ram uncompressed and instantly usable by the game. No system resources are used, allowing games to get on with it without consideration or management being put onto the system by loading or streaming. Free and super low latency.
On pc apart from the api layer inefficiency, all loading & decompression needs to go through the cpu. Nvme data throughput is substantial, constantly hammering the resources, not to mention the increase to latency.
There is talk about gpu’s doing the decompression, but till we see results it’s all marketspeak as a response to the consoles, and even then you are using GPU resources and likely GPU ram to load, decompress, store. PC I/o needs dedicated I/o complex in the future imho.
ethomaz
Banned
It will probably at the start being implemented in the motherboards and after added to the CPU.
FPU unit happened the same.
BTW we are talking about a long term change in PC.
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kyliethicc
Member
No M.2 SSD in the PS5 can go over 7 GB/s, because its only PCIe Gen 4x4. A drive that could hit 8+ GB/s would be PCIe 5.0 (and don't exist yet) but even then, the PS5 motherboard is PCIe 4.0 so the max read speed will always be 7 GB/s raw.
ethomaz
Banned
Actually the limitation of PCI-E 4.0 x4 is 8GB/s.
But yes while it can use a higher speed SSD in the future it will be limited to 8GB/s.
PCI-E is compatible so it will probably be fine using a 10GB/s in a PCI-E 4.0 x4 slot even you being bandwidth limited.
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kyliethicc
Member
Yes technically the theoretical max is 8 GB/s, but drives will never hit that speed in real world use. I'm just using the numbers Cerny used.
The point is that current M.2 Gen4x4 drives like the Samsung 980 Pro 1 TB (7 GB/s) will be fast enough for the PS5.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
reminds me of this horizon gif.
I always thought that the amount of NPCs and AI based things like the fish here and those flying ships in the ratchet gif were tied to the CPU. AC Unity's issues were blamed mostly on the amount of NPCs they were pushing and the shitty jaguar CPUs the console manufacturers left them with. the game runs pretty well on modern PCs actually.
P.S I have no idea how they are going to get this running on a PS4 without a massive downgrade. I remember the cod ghosts guys making a big fuss about their fish A.I but this is literally a gen ahead. I have never seen anything like this. I really hope they are developing a separate last gen version with fewer features and downgraded graphics.
MasterCornholio
Member
reminds me of this horizon gif.
I always thought that the amount of NPCs and AI based things like the fish here and those flying ships in the ratchet gif were tied to the CPU. AC Unity's issues were blamed mostly on the amount of NPCs they were pushing and the shitty jaguar CPUs the console manufacturers left them with. the game runs pretty well on modern PCs actually.
P.S I have no idea how they are going to get this running on a PS4 without a massive downgrade. I remember the cod ghosts guys making a big fuss about their fish A.I but this is literally a gen ahead. I have never seen anything like this. I really hope they are developing a separate last gen version with fewer features and downgraded graphics.
I'll wait until they show it but I am a little worried about HFW since it has to work on the PS4s HDD.
This is another reminder why non proprietary is good, that price has been like this for a few months, for a WD drive too IIRC. I can see it dropping even more by the end of the year.Yes technically the theoretical max is 8 GB/s, but drives will never hit that speed in real world use. I'm just using the numbers Cerny used.
The point is that current M.2 Gen4x4 drives like the Samsung 980 Pro 1 TB (7 GB/s) will be fast enough for the PS5.
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ethomaz
Banned
Yes I agree... it is more than enough... I believe that even 6GB/s (if exists) will be enough even counting the added overhead.Yes technically the theoretical max is 8 GB/s, but drives will never hit that speed in real world use. I'm just using the numbers Cerny used.
The point is that current M.2 Gen4x4 drives like the Samsung 980 Pro 1 TB (7 GB/s) will be fast enough for the PS5.
DaGwaphics
Member
You know that is an NVMe drive you posted the link to right? You can't just slap an NVMe controller on a SATA SSD, that doesn't work.
MS is using the Phison E19T along with high endurance TLC 4D NAND. It is exactly what it was designed to be, a Gen 4 x2 NVMe drive.
ethomaz
Banned
You are right I really confused the things.
What was updated was the PCIe... this drive is 3.0 and WD updates it to 4.0 to MS use.
Rea
Member
Some People think that fast SSD are not important in game development, they just want to have more Ram instead.Sampler Feedback on PS3?
Target:
Audio:
Animation:
Well this proves them wrong. SSD can ease the Ram management and can improve virtual texturing, so it will effect visual quality.
TheRedRiders
Member
Md Ray
Member
A dedicated decompression unit will likely be built into the GPU for PC, imo.
Derift
Member
I found it interesting that Sony got so much flack for this yet people were silent for MSXbox controller drift lawsuit to be settled out of court
A class action lawsuit that claims Microsoft distributed faulty Xbox controllers has been compelled to arbitration. Thi…
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
There are a lot more people buying Sony products.
Particularly new controllers.
It’s not a conspiracy against Sony, it’s math.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
After seeing the new Ratchet and Clank Trailer, Phil Spencer feels better about what he's got to show this summer.
throwback to 2020 but for real I hope Hellblade 2 shows some impressive next gen tech on the MS side
let’s see them 12TF singing
Phil Spencer felt good about showing that Halo:Infinite demo. So "Spencer feeling good" about anything cannot be considered a reliable yardstick for where expectations should lie.
It's dumb because massively increased mass storage device bandwidth, it multiplies the effective memory capacity because as in the above case, more and more redundant data can be released from having to occupy space in RAM. Being able to swap out data on the fly as needed is a revelation and will fundamentally change how games are built.
TheRedRiders
Member
Pretty much a meme at this point.
Lunatic_Gamer
Gold Member
PS5 System Updates - Part 2 Image Quality, HDR and Frame-rates
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Yeah, I saw that he "felt better" and immediately thought "uh oh". At best, I'm guessing the games and tech they intend to show is of a different art style so it won't be an easy comparison to make?
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I'm the same; I'll probably only ever add an extra internal if there's some benefit besides more space. Like, 3 years from now, can we outdo the PS5 drive, get even better load times? (for those games that still use traditional load screens)
Shmunter
Member
The old games rely on the cpu to load and setup assets so that will remain the bottleneck in the future regardless. Seemingly Sony is also throttling BC I/o for some arbitrary reason too - free gains could be made if they shook things up a bit here.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Not talking about BC. Moving forward there will still likely be games that do traditional loading screens, just as there are some right now on next-gen.
But yeah for the most part those are probably doing calculations and not I/O limited.
The one thing I'm not a fan of for this "no load screens" concept.. feel like it also means "games that don't require a lot of calculations".. I don't want simple action games, I want advanced AI... a living world populated with things that are actually being simulated, etc.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Hey Look. The first ray traced only game that cannot run on any non RT GPUs on PC. The minimum specs literally require an RT card. I guess PCs are never the lowest common denominator after all. ;p
It's funny that this is still an argument that is brought up. People have conveniently forgotten how those 1GB VRAM GPUs literally defaulted you to the lowest settings as soon as next gen games like CoD Advanced Warfare started taking advantage of the 5GB ram in last gen consoles. This happens every gen, and it will continue to happen now that CPUs and SSDs have gotten a massive upgrade on consoles.
It's funny that this is still an argument that is brought up. People have conveniently forgotten how those 1GB VRAM GPUs literally defaulted you to the lowest settings as soon as next gen games like CoD Advanced Warfare started taking advantage of the 5GB ram in last gen consoles. This happens every gen, and it will continue to happen now that CPUs and SSDs have gotten a massive upgrade on consoles.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
LOL HAHA. This Metro comparison is hilarious. It shows just how inaccurate and straight up POOR the RT lighting was in the original. Apparently it only had one bounce RT lighting so the sunlights didnt illuminate the rest of the room correctly.
This is funny because Alex spent that entire year raving about how realistic that lighting was giving it his graphics GOTY, and droning about it on and on for two years, all the while completely missing the fact that it was entirely inaccurate all along.
2019 RT GI on the Left. 2021 RT FULL GI on the right.
Never seen a graphics analyst give the worse version of the game goty before.
This is funny because Alex spent that entire year raving about how realistic that lighting was giving it his graphics GOTY, and droning about it on and on for two years, all the while completely missing the fact that it was entirely inaccurate all along.
2019 RT GI on the Left. 2021 RT FULL GI on the right.
Never seen a graphics analyst give the worse version of the game goty before.
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