FatKingBallman
Banned
Actually it is. For 8k/24-30fps, chroma 4:2:0/4:2:2, HDR10
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Actually it is. For 8k/24-30fps, chroma 4:2:0/4:2:2, HDR10
Nowcry
Member
Geometry is precisely one of the things that is best done in streaming due to its easy fragmentation and is highly benefited by clocks.
Nanite is good at streaming textures but even more so at streaming geometry. The need for the PS5 to have such an advanced Geometry Engine is precisely because of this. I am sure that there are static textures in the GDDR in the whole scene but I would say that precisely geometry does not save small repetitive objects such as ceramics or streetlights etc ...
Having 768MB of pool frees you up 15GB and 256MB for the game. Possibly 11 GB for graphics and 4 GB for the CPU 1 GB for the system.
The day we see 11 GB in the shot of the face we will possibly shit in our pants.
Apollo Helios
Member
Yup this!
I want to add my two cents on the Xbox side, I have been an Xbox Insider for years and the stuff they break more than fix most of the time is appalling. Like they couldn't fix the Dolby Atmos app for almost a year since I enrolled so it could potentially be longer, for every release they had this known bug lying there saying that it doesn't work sometimes and that also translated to release versions too. MS is supposed to be this big software company but lately, they have turned into a 'test every piece of code on voluntary consumers' company that iterates on levels of consumers who become alpha and beta testers. And even then with all the large pool of testers, they can't easily get their shit together... I'm not saying beta testing is bad or anything however the way they develop their software is a very different approach that I can't totally support now after being part of their feedback scheme.
ethomaz
Banned
HDR is still not supported for non-4k TVs or monitors.
While Sony supports it.
Each company has it own fair of system issues.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Actually no, PS5 have standard Panasonic MN864739, does your uncle works at Sony?
If that has some capability to reprogram, well datasheet is no publicly available, same with these chips last gen...
OverHeat
« generous god »
You like to talk bullshit right? Put up or shut up. You cannot drop something like this and not have proof.
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ethomaz
Banned
That is not a standard HDMI chip... it is made for PS5 just like the one made for PS4 (Panasonic too).Actually no, PS5 have standard Panasonic MN864739, does your uncle works at Sony?
If that has some capability to reprogram, well datasheet is no publicly available, same with these chips last gen...
I mean you can’t find or use it in any other device.
From the number it seems to be a new version based in the PS4 chip.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
But as far as I know, they are publicaly available for sale, which almost never happened for these types of chips.So far there only has been in PS5, but I was thinking that it's due to devices needing 4k@120 are rather sparse.
ethomaz
Banned
Public, do you mean for replacement?
It was always available.
You can buy any chip from previous consoles too for repairs.
BTW others devices uses others chips... this one will only works on PS5.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Well, I mean these sort of chips for other electronic, like phones, laptops, when they are custom, you can't really buy them. But I guess when there is no datasheet, that it could mean that it's custom chip. However I am surprised that it does not have Sony logo then.
ethomaz
Banned
You can buy all of them.
I changed the power chip on my phones not just one time.
You can find all parts to buy to any device... including iPhones, TVs, computers, etc... you have parts specialized suppliers.
I mean repair shops needs theses parts for repair electronic devices.
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PaintTinJr
Member
With all the talk about SFS/PRT+ I started thinking about the UE5 demo again to wonder how PRT+ will factor into the nanite workload and had a little refresh with the linked article (below) about the numbers involved.
wccftech UE5 nanite tech
If only ~800MB of data was used to generate that level of imagery you've got to wonder how would SFS/PRT+ - if not used in UE5's demo - help in the context of data streaming at IO complex speeds? The bandwidth is so high for the PS5's IO and that data so (surprisingly) tiny, that even a 90% saving would be nothing at all in context IMO.
But the other thing that occurred to me about the nanite demo, is that if everything in the background was micro-polygon renderer at 4 polys per pixel, then obviously no conventional texturing is being done AFAIK, because the micro-polygon colours are the texture sample, so SFS has already been surpassed - and made redundant for nanite parts of the scene - but it also suggests that hidden surface removal isn't being done by a depth buffer - in nanite - either, because conventional depth testing with pre-sorted geometry is still needed for when two polygons can have fragments that are in front of the other polygon - at the same time - so only quick estimate hidden surface removal is typically deployed in software on a CPU before zbuffering on a GPU.
In a sub-pixel micro-polygon render, theoretically there is no need for a hardware zbuffer to be enabled while rendering, because a software solution - first on CPU and then say using async compute to test 4 micro polys per pixel - will have no visual error, even if two micro-polygons could be partially in front and behind the other - because the error is sub-pixel.
AFAIK zbuffering being enabled is still a huge limiting factor in GPU throughput, compared to rendering with it disabled, which would certainly explain why their claims about being able to increase the data for nanite wouldn't have crippled the performance in the demo, as would be expected of a conventional renderer - because of zbuffer overdraw crippling throughput.
wccftech UE5 nanite tech
If only ~800MB of data was used to generate that level of imagery you've got to wonder how would SFS/PRT+ - if not used in UE5's demo - help in the context of data streaming at IO complex speeds? The bandwidth is so high for the PS5's IO and that data so (surprisingly) tiny, that even a 90% saving would be nothing at all in context IMO.
But the other thing that occurred to me about the nanite demo, is that if everything in the background was micro-polygon renderer at 4 polys per pixel, then obviously no conventional texturing is being done AFAIK, because the micro-polygon colours are the texture sample, so SFS has already been surpassed - and made redundant for nanite parts of the scene - but it also suggests that hidden surface removal isn't being done by a depth buffer - in nanite - either, because conventional depth testing with pre-sorted geometry is still needed for when two polygons can have fragments that are in front of the other polygon - at the same time - so only quick estimate hidden surface removal is typically deployed in software on a CPU before zbuffering on a GPU.
In a sub-pixel micro-polygon render, theoretically there is no need for a hardware zbuffer to be enabled while rendering, because a software solution - first on CPU and then say using async compute to test 4 micro polys per pixel - will have no visual error, even if two micro-polygons could be partially in front and behind the other - because the error is sub-pixel.
AFAIK zbuffering being enabled is still a huge limiting factor in GPU throughput, compared to rendering with it disabled, which would certainly explain why their claims about being able to increase the data for nanite wouldn't have crippled the performance in the demo, as would be expected of a conventional renderer - because of zbuffer overdraw crippling throughput.
MasterCornholio
Member
Actually no, PS5 have standard Panasonic MN864739, does your uncle works at Sony?
If that has some capability to reprogram, well datasheet is no publicly available, same with these chips last gen...
My guess.
It's probably going to be something similar to what they did with the PS4 with the HDR update. I know that Sony updated the HDMI in that to add it so maybe the same will happen with the PS5.
What I do know is that VRR is in the specifications so it's definitely capable of that. It's just for whatever reason Sony hasn't enabled that function yet.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Well about that is that right to repair bill, which people want to be pushed out in the states and exactly there those who are pushing it for it say that a lot of chips for repair are not normally available (outside of refurbs). So yeah those special suppliers obviously could work, but also they don't have to supply it outside of licenced repair shops.
Is this possible? I thought TV's need to get a 50-60hz signal to work
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FatKingBallman
Banned
Well, movies will work.
Both XSX and PS5 will support 8k, just there is no content yet. Movies in near future more likely than games. Anyway, from Anandtech
HDMI 2.1 can use Display Stream Compression with a compression ratio of up to 3:1. Using DSC, formats up to 8K (7680 × 4320) 120 Hz or 10K (10240 × 4320) 100 Hz at 8 bpc RGB/4:4:4 are possible.
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Apollo Helios
Member
Remove that chip and replace it with any 4K or 8K TVs HDMI redriver chip money can buy and you won't have any image on the screen. These are made for Sony and for the PS5 period.
Also, neither Sony nor Panasonic officially sells that chip. You can find that part only from otherwise broken PS5s which remove everything other than what is most likely the issue and use it for parts. For example: https://store.techdevice.repair/parts/panasonic-mn864739-hdmi-chip-for-playstation-5-ps5/
it's hella expensive cause it comes from most likely a single broken PS5 and that is why it is also out of stock, cause only stock will be other broken consoles.
Also, neither Sony nor Panasonic officially sells that chip. You can find that part only from otherwise broken PS5s which remove everything other than what is most likely the issue and use it for parts. For example: https://store.techdevice.repair/parts/panasonic-mn864739-hdmi-chip-for-playstation-5-ps5/
it's hella expensive cause it comes from most likely a single broken PS5 and that is why it is also out of stock, cause only stock will be other broken consoles.
kyliethicc
Member
PS5 right now is 4K120, HDR, 12 bit, YUV 4:2:2.
XBSX right now is 4K120, HDR, 10 bit, RGB 4:4:4.
Neither one outputs 4K120, HDR, 12 bit, RGB 4:4:4.
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Well at least 12bit is currently not really necessary, as there are not really any 12bit panels available.
Imtjnotu
Member
And to think they may not even be using geometry engine.
This is probably all Gpu, ssd, i/O.
Cerny said it would take a few years for devs to get a handle on it.
Insane Insomniac
Shmunter
Member
No, now you're just inventing things you wish I said. 6GB/s is the raw capabilities of the decompression hardware, not the Xbox SSD.
The maximum raw performance of the Series X SSD is 2.4GB/s. The guaranteed minimum raw speed at all times is 2GB/s when the OS or hardware may be doing some kind of maintenance across a 250ms window.
With compression the Series X SSD can achieve an effective 4.8GB/s. Not raw speed, just effective speed due to the benefits of texture compression. You toss in Sampler Feedback Streaming's 2.5x without compression and you're looking at an effective 5GB/s for Series X SSD, assuming the absolute minimum 2GB/s for the SSD. It would be 6GB/s effective with SFS at its rated max raw speed of 2.4GB/s.
Just like the theoretical high for the PS5 SSD with kraken decompression as stated by Cerny can reach as high as 22GB/s. That's effective speed thanks to compression, that isn't the SSD of the PS5 actually hitting 22GB for real, just as it also doesn't hit 8-9GB/s for real, but only after effective performance boosts through kraken decompression.
Here is a Microsoft graphics engineer who works on this stuff already stating Series X's ability to achieve performance equivalent to an "effective" 12GB/s
You're trying to spin like I'm saying the Series X SSD goes up to 6GB. I said no such thing and neither has Microsoft. Yes, they've stated their SSD can burst higher, but they've stated since the beginning they have only ever been comfortable telling people the expected real world figures rather than talking about a theoretical max figure. The reason for mentioning their decompression hardware's ability to deliver over 6GB/s is to highlight that in comparison to the notably slower SSD, you can be assured that decompression capability will never be a bottleneck in the Series X because it far outstrips the performance of the actual Series X SSD, which can only ever achieve 2.4GB/s raw and 4.8GB/s effective with compression.
If you think Series X SSD can't deliver performance beyond its raw spec with the tech Microsoft has in place, have a look for yourself. Remember Cerny's road to PS5 example of the PS5 being able to load 2GB in just 0.27 seconds?
Here is Microsoft doing the last gen equivalent of 2.68GB with sampler feedback streaming on Series X more than once in real-time in just 0.19 seconds & 0.17 seconds.
With SFS Series X never has to load anything close to 2.68GB into RAM. It instead loads just 565MB while using just 512MB of that.
Even in the optimized gen9 equivalent a lot more RAM is required, closer to 1.57GB, which Microsoft confirms is unrealistically efficient compared to what an actual game will be like, but even giving gen9 an unrealistic advantage, SFS on Series X still comes out 2.9x better than the gen 9 console streaming system with SSD.
I'm only using the information Microsoft has provided. If we can take Sony engineers and devs working on PS5 at their word, then we can take Microsoft engineers and devs working on Series X at their word. We already have the Dirt 5 technical director stating they can load FAR more data into RAM than what people think is possible with Series X, and he can do it without using compression, so take that for what it's worth.
Here it goes from an actual game experienced technical director of a major studio.
Dirt 5 PS5 Haptics Will Be Redone; Dev Says Series X I/O Can Push Over 5GB/s Uncompressed
Dirt 5 Technical Director David Springate talked about his experience with Xbox Series X fast storage and said PS5 haptics will be redone.wccftech.com
Man said he can do 10GB in two seconds on Series X in his personal tests and said this was RAW without compression. Obviously Xbox Series X's I/O can is a bit better than you think, and there are actual industry experts who back that up. You're all too willing to accept praise on the PS5 side of things, but not as willing to accept it for Xbox Series X. It's "just marketing" when it's Xbox, am I right?
Curious how the SF partial reading of textures stacks with the on disk compression. How do you get part texture from a compressed file?
Do you need to decompress, read the small portion somewhere along the i/o chain and then send it onto ram?
Red_Driver85
Member
This is another example of not staying on topic and also earns a 1 month break from the thread.
Garani
Member
There you go, twisting things agin, moving goal posts, and so on. It's FUD when you give only part of the whole, especially when it's just the perceived negative part of the discussion..
Actually no, PS5 have standard Panasonic MN864739, does your uncle works at Sony?
If that has some capability to reprogram, well datasheet is no publicly available, same with these chips last gen...
To the both of you, do I need to add to the other fellow forum mates? The HDMI chip in the PS5 (and PS4) are custom for Sony and reprogrammable. You know it, I know it, the whole world knows it.
They aren't; because in general, they weren't using PRT... which they explained on the slide right before the SFS demo.
SFS is an implementation of PRT Xbox is hoping actually gets used, whereas tiled resources and PRT didn't get used much.. Rage / Rage 2 famously used it, but ID actually even abandoned the method after that.
You missed my tech talk where we solved this yesterday.
The real power behind SFS is the i/o Speed.. it then adds the enhancements to do the calculations / automatic caching / un-caching, which is awesome.. nut it was a bit of a flawed comparison.
Comparing SFS vs "non PRT on an SSD" is flawed because why would you not use something like PRT on an SSD? Playstation almost certainly supports some implementation of the tech, whether it has to rely on CPU power more or not would be the question.
It sounds like MS has a simple/easy to use solution though, and we probably haven't been seeing much of it as we are seeing cross-gen games.
Sampler Feedback was on PS3. Killzone 3 has all levels/geo/animation stream and mipmaps was loaded in priority in to the ram. ONLY loading the highest mipmaps into memory when they are needed
- One thing you realize during game development is that you never have enough memory. If you manage to optimize something and free up some space, it will be immediately consumed by new content. This makes a good streaming system prety much necessity for current games.
- zone B zone c zone A geometry. Therefore Killzone engine has several systems that stream game data, graphics or audio into memory when it’s needed. The highest level system allows us to split large game world into smaller secJons that fit into memory. As you play through a secJon of a level -‐ Zone A here. we’re already loading zone B in the background, Once we enter zone B, we dump zone A from memory.
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It is still limited to 32gb/sec, you are trying to accuse me for FUD while it is still true, I have also said that it will probably support it in a future update, I guess you missed that part as a negative part of your discussion
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bitbydeath
Member
Cerny is impressed that he's seeing ray tracing being used right now.
He's a humble dude.
The PS5 Is Starting to Look Like the Revolution It Promised
What’s happening with Sony’s latest console, now that it’s been out for six months? Supply issues aside, it’s proving to be much more than a simple evolution.
Its wild what he thinks about the silicon cost of ray tracing while he went hard on the SSD, I/O. And so far...what we see from SSD use are the biggest wow moments.
Imtjnotu
Member
give it two years. god of war will be the next true test if its PS5 onlyCerny is impressed that he's seeing ray tracing being used right now.
He's a humble dude.
The PS5 Is Starting to Look Like the Revolution It Promised
What’s happening with Sony’s latest console, now that it’s been out for six months? Supply issues aside, it’s proving to be much more than a simple evolution.www.wired.com
Its wild what he thinks about the silicon cost of ray tracing while he went hard on the SSD, I/O. And so far...what we see from SSD use are the biggest wow moments.
Apollo Helios
Member
I'll never not laugh at these stupid fucks. Some on the same level rear their ugly head around here from time to time too, good thing they're easy to spot.
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Imtjnotu
Member
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Unreal 5 deja vu. From Ratchet previews
HOLY FREAKIN SMOKES!!!!!
Probably deleted.
Imagine being this thick...
Sinthor
Gold Member
nice to have a bit of variety.
I wonder how the PS5 version 2 will look.
I like this! Wonder if there's any truth to that idea that was floating around before of how Sony might offer a multiple set of colors and people could change the plates on the PS5 to change the colors? I like this black and red...looks pretty sharp!
Putonahappyface
Gold Member
They'd be mad not to make changeable faceplates. They could potentially make a small fortune on different colours and limited edition faceplates at £60 a time.
Sinthor
Gold Member
Well, if they're going to, I would think that with the release of these controllers, the time would be right to start offering the faceplates as well. We'll see! I'm definitely hopeful that they will go this way. The white looks nice, but it will dim with age and I love the idea of being able to pop a different color or design onto my PS5.
Somebody said Insomniac didnt wait for UE5, lol.
They probably just updated their engine...its wild that some ppl thought Sony's tools would just stay stagnant.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
If I was Jim Ryan I will delay GOW:R. Returnal, R&C, and Horizon FW will fight for this year's GOTY. Even those can take GOTY's for each with the lack of good games. Sony literally doing all the heavy lifting for the gaming industry.
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TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Insomniac is a top tier studio. Especially in terms of technical prowess. To count them out is to display one's own foolishness.
thebigmanjosh
Member
Sony would be foolish not to. The plastic shell is probably one of if not the cheapest component to make on the console and would likely retail well at $40-$50.
I went with (and I’m still waiting for) the dbrand matte black plates, but I’d be down for a classic PS1 grey if they ever made them.
MatrixReloaded101
Member
This constant marketing for the dualsense is getting to be very annoying. I am sure that we experienced the best that the controller will ever have to offer with Astro's playroom and thats about it. They are going to date their game by making it cross-gen but I still hope it turns out good.
If he is confident enough to release all of these games right now I am sure they have a lot of other amazing games in works for the future. Also you can't underestimate the games being released by third party studios this year. Maybe MS might surprise us and release a good game also.If I was Jim Ryan I will delay GOW:R. Returnal, R&C, and Horizon FW will fight for this year's GOTY. Even those can take GOTY's for each with the lack of good games. Sony literally doing all the heavy lifting for the gaming industry.
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LucasBR
Member
nice to have a bit of variety.
I wonder how the PS5 version 2 will look.
The black one is beautiful!
kyliethicc
Member
So now we got the all black DualSense & all black PSVR2 controllers. Next up - all black PSVR2 headset.
Wonder when they'll ship the all black PS5? 2022?
Black outer plates for the PS5 isn't enough, the center portion is currently gloss black on PS5. Needs to be matte to match.
Wonder when they'll ship the all black PS5? 2022?
Black outer plates for the PS5 isn't enough, the center portion is currently gloss black on PS5. Needs to be matte to match.
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LucidFlux
Member
nice to have a bit of variety.
I wonder how the PS5 version 2 will look.
Beautiful, now release a new back button attachment Sony!!
Apollo Helios
Member
Wait you think DS implementation on Astro is the best it will ever be and no other first-party studio will find new and better ways to use it to its maximum potential? Seriously dude this is a bad take, what ND or SSM can do with DS both on haptics and adaptive triggers is most likely blow our minds. Even now Returnal uses adaptive trigger for Alternative Fire and the haptics are really making it immersive; it's like a whole another controller on this game alone and it's not stopping there just a month later R&C will make use of both these features.
Are you tired of marketing cause you don't have DS and PS5 or something cause only someone still waiting on some stock could be annoyed by this...
LiquidRex
Member
Are we seeing the GE at work here, be it automatically.Unreal 5 deja vu. From Ratchet previews
MasterCornholio
Member
Well if anything I would expect Sonys 1st parties to be the first ones to use it. I'm pretty sure they are doing some sort of culling with Ratchet. I'm not sure if it's the new techniques that Cerny was talking about.
Play Returnal.
Thats probably the next game that uses it really well. R n C will probably be the next one.
skit_data
Member
Agreed, Astrobot was a good showcase but Returnal shows it has added benefits that parts of it can be used as an actual functional aspect of the controller.
I really liked the dual function triggers on the Gamecube controller and by making the triggers programmable on the Dualsense they have effectively (at least) doubled the function of the L2 and R2 triggers
I dont know if I posted what I realized yesterday playing it:
The game has something called Overcharge, it gives you a faster reload if done right. There are indicators on screen, and you can miss the Overcharge of done too fast or slow.
A gun called the Hallowseeker...you can jus hold down RT until the clip empties and never miss the Overcharge. The Dual Sense feels way different when you have bullets vs an empty clip. Probably the same for the Carbine.
When the Alt fire is charging up you hear it really well from the controller speaker. I think you have to pull LT all the way down to hear the sound get louder from the controller.
Its something thats hard to explain, but easy to know if you actually play the game.
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Apollo Helios
Member
Also, it taps hard when alt-fire cools down, you don't have to even hear it to know you can fire alt-fire again.
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