If Lemieux is #2, who is #3?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
NHL Stanley Cup Finals 2016 |OT| Juicy Big Dick Hot Doggin' Commies with Bad Breath
- Thread starter Quick
- Start date
- Status
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Bobby Orr! The greatest offensive defencemen ever, no offence to the amazing Paul Coffey who is also up there. Bourque was more consistent, but in his peak he wasn't as insane offensively. In fact, Leetch was better than Bourque too in my eyes.
I'd put Jagr #4, and Howe #5. All opinions, but Jagr and Howe played most of their careers in low-scoring eras and still put up amazing point totals. Howe's only 100 point season (which weren't a thing almost his entire career) came at age 41, the latest ever. Jagr toiled in the dead puck era and 4 of his 5 scoring titles (97/98-00/01) were during some of the NHL's darkest days (which we're once again in). His 127 points in 1998-1999 was 20 more than the next leading scorer despite losing Ron Francis the previous year. He did it without an amazing centre (Ron Francis had left via free agency in the summer of '98). It's also the most points in a season of what some would call the dead puck era (1996-1997 and on, maybe excluding 2005-2007 or 2008). Even the highest scoring time in recent memory, 2005-2006, had only 2 players with over 120 points, Joe Thornton (125), and a 34-year old Jagr (123).
My favourite stat that illustrates Jagr's career is that from 1980-1981 through 2000-2001, only three players won the NHL scoring title, Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr. The top four or five players in NHL history are so above everyone else who was around them statistically that it's not much of an insult to call someone #2. Even #2 all-time is leagues ahead of everyone else who ever played the game. Magic hands.
Lemieux
Jagr
All of these guys had moments like this.
Auron_Kale
Member
Honestly, I think the social media movement behind telling Marvel to do an about face regarding the Hydra storyline is more hilarious.
Kinda curious to see how this plays out.
Still, I'm looking forward to getting my Captain Big Dick shirt.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I'm rooting for...
OT
Game 7
Sharks
...in that order.
OT
Game 7
Sharks
...in that order.
PPG is a weak argument when Gretzky played with Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson. Teams that lit up opposing teams for 446 and 426 goals.
I would put Lemieux's 199 PTS in 88-89 above Gretzky's best seasons. The best offensive weapon that team had besides Lemieux and Coffey was Rob Brown. The same Brown who benefited from playing with Mario that season and never reached 100 PTS again.
Mario accounted for 25% of the pens total goals that season while compiling a better S% than Gretzky had ever reached. If Mario played with more gifted wingers and had a team that destroyed opposing goalies for 420-440 goals, he would have exploded past 215 PTS.
On Mario's best day he was more talented than Gretzky.
JinjoUnchained
Member
Rooting for the Sharks to win. I met Marleau and Thornton years back. They're good guys and have paid their dues, it's time.
Can the San Jose Sharks, a team that has never made the finals before, really be called the most detestable team in league history? Not that I expect an answer from the poster himself, being banned and all, but I am what I'd say is a moderate hockey fan and I was picking up on none of these vibes if they exist.
Now, they picked up Raffi Torres, who I do think is detestable and should just end his career, but I let that stay on him, not the rest of the team
opticalmace
Member
That would be excellent.
Maximilian E.
AKA MS-Evangelist
Bobby Orr has stated that he considered Lemieux the most talented player ever.
But this is a general consensus.. I mean, his last season in QJMHL, scoring 282 points in 70 games is still unheard of (as far as i know)
That was the thing with Lemieux, he was the better player but just had the bad luck of injuries and also not having a talented supporting crew as Gretzky had.
Ohh yeah, I also want to rank Lemieux 44 points in playoff in the 90-91 season as a better performance than Gretzkys record 48 points. Lemieux did 44 points with back problems, most of the time he could not tie his own skates. Making 44 points and not being 100% shows just how talented he was..
I'm with you on this one. Would you rather see the cup on a beautiful beach or in some industrial place that probably smells to everyone that isn't a local?
Silly we don't have accents. It's the rest of the world that has an accent.
User 479360
Banned
$31 for a t-shirt feels like too much. It's too bad, as it's a beautiful shirt.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Gretzky regularly played with Semenko or Marty McSorley on wing or defence. Check out the 50 goals in 39 games match footage or his 802nd goal for some of the most notable examples. Lemieux did not play with an enforcer in the pre-instigator era (thinking about the first example).
Messier would be a Ryan Getzlaf without Gretzky and in a different scoring era, let's be real. But anyways, about guys like Kurri, I take it more as that Gretzky elevated the players he played with. Kurri with Gretzky and Kurri without Gretzky were like two different players.
Gretzky played with several guys who were out of the league soon after he retired in his final two seasons in New York. He's lucky he experienced it at the end of his career instead of the beginning, but we'll never know Mario's full potential. By the 1990-1991 playoffs Mario had a better team than Gretzky's Kings though, without a doubt.
My money is on Gretzky. I don't expect you to agree with me, but Mario left more questions than answers.
To give another example, Lindros first five seasons he scored at such a pace that a concussion-free Lindros might have been that kind of guy if he could play entirely before the dead puck era, and had been healthy. Mario and Lindros are both two guys whose prime careers were cut tragically short, but Lemieux always bounced back.
Looking back, Lemeiux and Jagr was something else in 2000-2001. Lemieux had 76 points in 43 games from when he returned, and didn't miss a single game I think, helping Jagr to a 5th and final scoring title. Lemieux nearly had another one at age 37 in 2002-2003. Like I said, what could have been. Lemeiux has some amazing accomplishments, but injuries, a back condition he was born with, and disease kept him from even hitting 1000 games. No one can really prove or disprove if he was #1 or not because of that.
I also want to add, that in 1995-1996, outside of power plays Jagr played with Francis on the second line, not Lemieux, and only finished 12 points behind Lemeiux in 12 more games. He also didn't score a hat trick or have a five point game, and the reason Lemieux missed 12 games was to rest his back in back-to-back road games. That most likely artificially improved his points per game, even though Lemieux had no real choice. For my money, Jagr's consistency in 149 points (a non-Canadian record) on the second line at a steady rate, including more at even strength, puts Jagr's 1995-1996 as almost as dominant as Mario's (and the league's) final 150+ point season, 161. 149 is the most by a non-centre as well, ever, not just a non-Canadian.
Simply put, those were two generational talents on one team there to pull those numbers as late as 1995-1996. Jagr's 1998-1999, and I'm sure, if he were healthy, Lemeiux's 2000-2001 are the closest since.
The reality is that, #1-5 or whatever doesn't matter. I do give both Mario and Jagr credit for single-handedly delaying the dead puck era though, something Gretzky may have been too old or small to do, so give Mario #1 if you want, or #2 like me. Doesn't matter, they're all winners.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Been waiting to see the Sharks finally make it to the Finals, so many missed chances...
Gonna do the Color Run in San Jose tomorrow and will probably stop by the Shark Tank to see what they have.
I ended up ordering this shirt after seeing it online a few days ago:
Can't believe the stand on your head Murray shirt is out of stock. The other penguins shirt sucks. Still love my shirt from last year better.
hydragonwarrior
Member
OP is brillsauce. And Sharks for the Reimer win. But I wonder if Kessell wants to win bad enough to rub it in his ex-TO fans faces?
TarpitCarnivore
Member
When did the different offensive and defensive eras begin? I've heard some people argue that Mario had more years in the dead puck era than Gretzky, so that's why his numbers are more impressive.
As Pens, I obviously love Mario and think he's great but I'm mostly just curious. Picking the "best of" between him, Gretzky, Orr, etc is just impossible really.
This will definitely come down to how badly Phil wants to win this
MultiJhonny
Banned
Kessel doesn't want to win. He just wants to eat more hot dogs.
The Internet
Member
I have been an Oiler fan my entire life, been alive for all 5 Cups and remember watching 4 of them (I was only 3 when the Oilers beat the Isles) and I agree with you.
Most of my Oiler buddies think I'm insane but I'm just going from what I have seen with my own eyes. I sound like MacTavish, "visually".
Mario was the greatest hockey player I have ever seen, no one ever dominated the play and game like he did. The greatest hockey talent, size, underrated speed because he made it look effortless. Like you said if I had to choose either him or Wayne if they were both healthy I would go with Lemieux.
The Internet has spoken, and The Internet never lies.
The Internet
Member
I don't let bias ever get in my way, I just go by facts. Like when I say the Calgary Flames suck, it's just stating fact.
Marty Chinn
Member
Hmm, Game 1 isn't sold out in Pittsburgh. Guess there aren't enough fans that care.
I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with the Oilers fan
MultiJhonny
Banned
Well the Flames are the worst
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
The dead puck era had perhaps a soft start in 1993-1994, but by 1996-1997 it was in full stop.
Jagr and Lemieux had the last great seasons before the dead puck era with their batshit insane 1995-1996 (149 and 161 points respectively), but for other players in the league it might count. Still, the entire top 10 scored 107 points or more that year. 1996-1997 and on got a fair bit darker. I really only think 2005-2006 and 2006-2007 were back to the good old days to an extent. Then again, Ovie's 65 goals in 2007-2008 was something else.
Mario played more in the dead puck era, his last year before the first retirement and the games he was healthy for from December 2000 to December 2005.
Gretzky played almost 3 full years in New York to end his career, entirely in the dead puck era, (for example 1997-1998 only Jagr had over 100 points...reminds me of most scoring races today).
The NHL likes to pretend the game is as fun to watch as ever but the goalies and defence are so good that I'll call bullshit, it's like the dead puck era again and starting to turn into soccer scores. It's insane if you look at a mid-1990's or earlier game and see how offensively the game was played.
The Internet
Member
I've always wondered how goalies from the 80's and early 90's become goalie coaches for NHL teams.
Like how does Billy Ranford teach Jonathan Quick goalie techniques? Ranford flopped all over the ice.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Was more entertaining that way though. It's not just the goalies however, the New Jersey Devils and their neutral zone trap bullshit winning the cup in '95 didn't help one bit.
Besides, goalie "padding" wasn't quite as extensive either. It's hard to say that goalies now carry far more than they need on them, but it sure looks that way.
I am a goalie, and have some insight into sizing. There can be some cuts. Most goalies don't need XL and XXL pants, when they are 180 lbs.
Goalie coaches should help shape with techniques but not with pure style. There are a lot of cookie goalies that try and use minimal save selections. The position continues to adapt. In the last few years there was VH, but that has already turned into ReVH.
Goals aren't just entertaining. It's scoring changes. A goalie flashing the leather with a big windmill glove save can be a thing of beauty.
Goalie coaches should help shape with techniques but not with pure style. There are a lot of cookie goalies that try and use minimal save selections. The position continues to adapt. In the last few years there was VH, but that has already turned into ReVH.
Goals aren't just entertaining. It's scoring changes. A goalie flashing the leather with a big windmill glove save can be a thing of beauty.
excelsiorlef
Member
Same.
I kinda wish it would turn into some sort of meme where like say a happy married couple gets divorced all of a sudden and on the divorce papers it just says
Reason for Divorce:
Wife: Hail Hyrda
Have you seen Jonathan Quick play before?
TarpitCarnivore
Member
What about when your goalies Ben Bishop and the size of a small sedan?
I don't think it's that bad. It's not like we have the damn Devils trap again.
One more day.
The Penguins logo reminds me of Nintendo of America's preferred depiction of Kirby
Kuro Madoushi
Unconfirmed Member
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Ah yes, a team that was bankrupt twice in their history.
A team with the most insufferable fanbase in the league.
They're located in Pittsburgh
Nothing is likable about them unless you're from that shithole of a city and most likely you've hopped on the bandwagon anyway,
I'd like you to point to examples of the fanbase being insufferable while avoiding sweeping internet generalizations. Pens fans are no better or worse than most.
I said most.
This is what some goalies look like without their chest and Jersey on. Huge over sized pants and suspenders.
Some things need a little tailoring.
The trap coaching style is another problem though. Unless they called more interference or obstruction penalties, it's going to stay. It's neat and efficient.
Fans obviously didn't like them enough to go to games.
They weren't making money.
That counts towards "likability"
Dealt with too many of them at Flyers boards/Blogs during post seasons. No one else was as bad.
Anecdotal, sure.
But when you have a team, who's presence was mostly ignored for the most part, then they start doing good again, then anyone has the gall to come talk shit? Nah, get out.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked