Dark Cloud
Member
I could see this happening. I think when they say big they really mean big dungeons. Maybe you'll need different items to come back to traverse different areas.
Nintendo @ E3 - No Direct, Just Zelda Treehouse Stream
- Thread starter Lucifon
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Ohhh, ok. Gotcha! I was gojng to say, there were just the grottos and maybe a couple caves I could picture, so I was trying to imagine why they would have procedurally generated those. Thanks for clarifying!
Skittzo0413
Member
... here I am, someone who loves Skyrim (not as much as Morrowind) and Zelda, and this is sounding like the best news ever.
Not that I think it will actually be all that similar to Skyrim, if at all. Just that lots of interiors makes for much more fun exploration.
Not that I think it will actually be all that similar to Skyrim, if at all. Just that lots of interiors makes for much more fun exploration.
Dark Cloud
Member
I loved Skyrim too. I know most hardcore gamers didn't, but if it took the dungeons from Skyrim and put it into Zelda U with a Nintendo twist on it, then this will probably be my game of the generation lol
I need to add I hope it has some great RPG elements with different swords, shields, bows, clothing, other weapons and you can upgrade them. I think it will definitely build upon what they had in Skyward Sword.
It would be great if there's a talking skill tree thingy too when you have conversations with people. It's no biggie if it doesn't have it, but it'd be cool.
Meesh
Member
To be honest my boys love Skyrim to death so If this gets them closer to playing Zelda I'm all for it. I don't mind changes to Zeldas formula so long as it works well within the game and makes sense...hoping for a real shake up to the traditional Zelda as we know it actually.
So i have one concern with 4 big dungeons 100 mini dungeons:
What is the thing that enables the big dungeons? Is it 'quest progress' like majora's mask? Does the game lead you to the 5~ish mini dungeons you need to go through to gain access to the big dungeon? I'm assuming you need to find some macguffins in the mini dungeons (think the medallions) or maybe items (bow + bombs to shoot bomb arrows to unblock the path to get to the dungeon, for example).
I'd like more freedom than being guided through a set story path like majora's mask (where you *DO* a handful of 'mini dungeons' before each major dungeon).
So my concern is - if I *do* have freedom to explore and figure out how to enter the 'big' dungeon - how do i know what to do and where to go? It's a fine fine line between being lost and being too handholdy. Will it walk the line well or will it hold my hand (and mark things on the map for me) like in past zelda games?
What is the thing that enables the big dungeons? Is it 'quest progress' like majora's mask? Does the game lead you to the 5~ish mini dungeons you need to go through to gain access to the big dungeon? I'm assuming you need to find some macguffins in the mini dungeons (think the medallions) or maybe items (bow + bombs to shoot bomb arrows to unblock the path to get to the dungeon, for example).
I'd like more freedom than being guided through a set story path like majora's mask (where you *DO* a handful of 'mini dungeons' before each major dungeon).
So my concern is - if I *do* have freedom to explore and figure out how to enter the 'big' dungeon - how do i know what to do and where to go? It's a fine fine line between being lost and being too handholdy. Will it walk the line well or will it hold my hand (and mark things on the map for me) like in past zelda games?
kinaesthete
Member
Maybe they came up with some wicked sick new mechanic and gave this insane sounding guy what he wanted?
wild wild rice
Member
(laughs)
Dark Cloud
Member
He came up with the wall mechanic? That mechanic is pure genius! I can't believe Miyamoto tore it up. Sometimes I wonder what goes through Miyamotos head. Anyways maybe this guy will take over the Zelda series as Aonuma gets older.Maybe they came up with some wicked sick new mechanic and gave this insane sounding guy what he wanted?
Cipher Peon
Banned
I'd hope it would be something like A Link Between Worlds. I want to buy the "main Zelda items" from shops and be told "hey there's stuff in these dungeons to advance the plot which require a mixture of the items that you can buy" and I'll be all like "cool sweet I'll do that"
I'd rather not explore the mini dungeons to unlock the main dungeons, that sounds awful. I want to have the ability to just plow through the game and tackle any of the side stuff at my own leisure rather than be forced to experience X amount of side activities to extend playtime.
Maybe they came up with some wicked sick new mechanic and gave this insane sounding guy what he wanted?
Really can't stand Miyamoto. Ugh.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
dat hate
ShockingAlberto
Member
If we assume that Zelda is fitting into an existing open world template, most open world games do have what are essentially chapter end scenarios in designed areas. Fighting your way up a tower, infiltrating an event, etc. Perhaps Zelda will work the same way where you do enough story quests until its time to go through the main dungeon. The mini-dungeons can be used for various other things, like story quests, fetch quests, rewards, etc.
LegendofLex
Member
Remember Zeldas 1-3, and how there's a Big Objective you're trying to complete that requires you to complete every dungeon, but there's generally nothing really limiting you from going to whatever dungeon at any time except for your own knowledge of the path and the monsters along the way?
I'm guessing the dungeons in this game will be like that. You can find them at any time, if you know where they are and can get past the monsters to reach them.
Remember the adult half of Ocarina of Time, and how there's a Big Objective you're trying to complete that requires you to complete every dungeon, but there's a story around each of the major dungeons that add up to the Big Objective?
I'm guessing the buildup to the dungeons in this game will be like that. You can run straight to the dungeons if you want, but there's a story around each of them and the game will strongly encourage you to at least get the opportunity to experience that story before heading to the dungeons.
Remember Majora's Mask, and how there are tons of mini-dungeons all over the place, some of which are integrated with the Big Objective (Pirate Fortress, Ikana Castle) and some of which are just side dungeons where you get Heart Pieces (Waterfall Shrine, Woodfall Shrine)? Or Twilight Princess, which has cave mini-dungeons everywhere? Or The Wind Waker, which had mini-dungeons guarding some of the Triforce shards?
I'm guessing the mini-dungeons in this game will be like that. All over the place, with varying rewards that are sometimes really significant like new items and sometimes just grindy stuff like Rupees and upgrades.
I really hope they don't pull ALBW shenanigans and try to lock the dungeons behind specific items, but then try to get around this to be open world by making all the items available from a central location like a shop. I hope they leave the dungeons generally more open, but give a couple of them memorable entrances, and leave the item structure as it was in LoZ and LttP.
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
Agree with this. ALBW's structure wasn't terribly rewarding, as compared to getting items in most Zelda games
LegendofLex
Member
Yeah. It was like they recognized that the overworlds were linear because they kept designing them around items, but then decided they needed to make items required to access the dungeons anyway and came up with a sloppy solution for that.
It's sad, because if you take away the obstacles at the entrance to each dungeon, ALBW's overworld is perfect.
I literally did not even consider zelda going in that direction. Now i'm sorta sad? but also weirdly curious about what zelda could do with that formula....
Yeah, zelda can pull it off when the world isn't so big, it's done it before. But now we're getting to a world that looks to be 10x bigger than anything they've done before and 10x more 'mini dungeons' than ever before, if the rumors are to be believed.
How do you prevent me from getting lost or from considering the mini-dungeons 'busy work.' How do you distinguish optional ones from mandatory ones? Quest givers, like in skyrim? Marking where to go on my map, like in A link to the past? Is the 'puzzle' figuring out how to get there? Or is the puzzle figuring out where to go to begin with?
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I just hope everything is open..
If we arent strong enough we wont be able to get far in the dungeon. The thing im scared is if its open that you can cheat the dungeon or something. Good thing they can patch games I guess.
Dark Cloud
Member
Maybe you'll find pieces of weapons or attachments to synthesize with your weapons? That can be like an upgrade which can help you progress through some small dungeons.
Hopefully items like in skyward sword or the equivalent of maiamais which you cash in for item upgrades would be nice.
Skittzo0413
Member
I'm pretty sure it was Miyamoto who said that there are so many side quests in this game that it's quite easy to get lost and distracted from your main quest (not sure if that's what you meant).
Beyond that, I would assume the gamepad map is a pretty key feature here. If we have a sentient map, you could mark down areas you need to go, or have it tell you where you need to go without actually having obtrusive quest markers on the screen. Also, remember those beacons from the VGA footage? That's essentially a quest marker that's a bit less obtrusive than Skyrim's compass markers.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Being strong enough isn't a very good gate, since you are basically using player skill as the only thing keeping them from beating the game in three hours.
So does every enemy do ten hearts of damage eventually? That sounds fine, except for the guy who manages to dodge everything. So make it a ton of damage and make some attacks undodgeable! Well now your game just sucks.
I suspect dungeons will just unlock when the story unlocks them.
Skittzo0413
Member
Yeah I have to agree with that. People expecting the game to be 100% open where you're free to travel anywhere and beat whatever dungeon you want from the start are going to be disappointed.
On the other hand there are ways of making gated content less annoying and more consistent within the game world. Things like needing the hookshot to get into the Forest Temple in OoT worked well, I thought.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
They can do it, they just have to design it well. Yes it can take 10 hearts and make it undodgeable. You need a certain item to progress.
crooked spin
Member
Allowing you to wander into an enemy that can one-shot you at the beginning of the game doesn't seem very Nintendo-like. (also i hate that sort of thing.)
I love Miyamoto and appreciate all of his contributions to the industry, but man, sometimes he says or does things that really make you scratch your head in bewilderment.
I love replaying games that I like, and I really appreciate when games make a huge chunk of the content optional and make the main story streamlined, so this would be ideal. I really like ALttP/ALBW because you can literally just run from dungeon to dungeon without a care in the world and beat the game in <10 hours (6 for ALttp). If you WANT, there's more content you can do, but it's optional and actually makes the game easier (heart pieces, optional items, more bottles, etc).
Twilight princess was like 30+ hours of main story and 10+ hours of optional content. It would have done the game way more favors if it were 20/20 (following a monkey around? Make that optional next time please).
So I *really* hope you can just hit all the major notes and clear the game in 20~ish hours but have the game have 40+ hours of content. 4 BIG dungeons and 100 mini dungeons kinda gives me hope this is the case. First time through i'm going to 100% everything.
Second time - blast right through.
Too be fair, miyamoto called wolf link amateurish - and I mostly agree. Wolf link is one of the worst parts of the game, gameplay-wise. So we really have no idea how good this wall mechanic was.
I'll take the quiet chosen-one villager trope over the amnesia trope any day of the week.
Dark Cloud
Member
I hope this game starts with us waking up in the middle of a field and Link doesn't know who he is. Then on our Gamepad we'll see a little village or a tent not too far away to walk too. We'd have freedom to walk around, but it's obvious there's a little village/tent nearby for us to go to first to start the game.
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
What rumor? I searched but didn't see anything.
Dark Cloud
Member
How many games has Link had amnesia in?
And that's fine. I'm not suggesting Miyamoto is always off or wrong when it comes to design, but the wall mechanic in ALBW is brilliant. I dunno. Maybe he made a hasty judgement call and didn't give it enough thought? Or maybe he did and still didn't like it? Or maybe the vision wasn't laid out properly in the first place?
Maybe, though I wish Zelda would require you to use the items in creative ways rather than just power them up. Doing things like having to use bombs, wind and hook shot all in one puzzle - stuff like that. Feels really cool to use basic items to accomplish something difficult.
Link doesn't talk, what's the point of being amnesiac when you have zero input on the narrative and your actually identity never matters in the first place?
That's just as easily achieved by having Link ride into Hyrule from some foreign land or something like that. Still doesn't mean much since he doesn't talk. Whether he's from a small village in the kingdom, a foreigner or amnesiac he's not going to know 99% of the world or its inhabitants.
Dark Cloud
Member
Guess that makes sense. I didn't really think it through. Regardless I don't want to start off in a village. I want to start off waking up in the fields or captured by some wild enemy in a cave and I have to make an escape.
I'm with you there. Personally I want to start the game in a dungeon. No extended opening before we get control or a sword and shield. Just put us in a confined area to explore and experiment with the controls on our own so we can get right into the gameplay. Afterwards they can start to introduce the plot elements and what not.
Skittzo0413
Member
The quote said that there would be 50 dungeons where you were using the wall merging mechanic. Obviously Miyamoto didn't get rid of the mechanic itself- it made it into the final game!
I'm guessing he didn't like that the focus of the entire game (or at least 50 dungeons worth) was on that single mechanic.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I swear they need to do some MDK2 type shit with the items where you can combine them and use them like the scientist did. Make the items themselves a puzzle.
Link's awakening, i think? Buy maybe not? They just say your name is on the shield, but who knows.
I don't mean that the trope is overused in zelda or anything, it's just I think it's a pretty weak cop-out to storytelling. I'd take naive villager saving the world over chosen one with a troubled past he can't remember, is all.
Could be a million things - my point is it's hard to tell if this was a bad call on miyamoto's part or if the idea was trash without actually seeing his idea or how it worked within the game.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Where did it come from?
Dark Cloud
Member
How many of you knew about this rumor? First Alberto and now you? Makes me think there's truth to it if nobody wanted to speak up about it lol.
Well, were still talking about Nintendo, so I'm sure getting completely lost probably wouldn't fit into their design philosophy. I imagine major dungeons will be designated in some way. I think the puzzle would be more figuring out how to get there, with a degree of figuring out where to even go but again unless there's been a marked shift in design philosophy at Nintendo, I imagine there's only so lost they'd want you to get. I like the theory that the GamePad map will be heavily integrated with the story (based on the Shiekah Book in the art potentially hinting at GanePad integration) and we know the map itself will be an important tool based on the Game Awards footage. Was marking points of interest on the map a thing in the footage? I can't recall exactly, but I thought they showed off that functionality.
BTW, where does the idea that the game world will specifically be 10x bigger (or anywhere near that much bigger) come from? I thought all that was said was that it will be the biggest Zelda world ever, or something to that effect? Just curious, I might be completely misremembering. I just figured the combined Sky and Under the Sky overworld sections of Skyward would be pretty hard to top in terms of overworld size, just in the sense that the game has two overworlds and when combined they're pretty sizable.
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
It seems like the usual rumor crew always finds out the same rumors at the same time. So I'm guessing it's always the same original source. Hopefully that person never get found out lol
I'm just guesstimating the world size. Maybe 5x bigger is more accurate. People have done the math for how big it is.
Estimating it would take 25 minutes to run across horizontally in a straight line - though that may be inaccurate. I think a full lap around hyrule field in twilight princess is like 1/5 of that time? So basically spitballing the 10x bigger, in terms of land-mass.
And yes, nintendo won't let me get lost. That's my point, i guess. My concern is *how much* handholding MUST there be if the game is *THIS* open. Hopefully it's not too much.
Like the *ideal* scenario is "there's a cave with a bird statue out front south east of ear, you'll find what you need inside" or something.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
The usual rumor crew lol.. where it come from though? And how gamexplain know?
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Time for a new thread... blow up session
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