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Official Presidential Debate 2004 Thread

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DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
Ripclawe said:
The point is if you put everything to a "global Test" nothing will ever get done and everything will be done to block America from protecting its interests and benefits which to me is a helluva lot more important than the interests of France or the UN or any other country. But Kerry being the internationalist and Euro thinker that he is believes this is a-okay which is absurd.

Great you tied that in to the situation in the Sudan... now please tie it into our invasion of Iraq. Jesus why can't I get an answer? How was our invading protecting US interests?

in·ter·na·tion·al·ism
1. The condition or quality of being international in character, principles, concern, or attitude.
2. A policy or practice of cooperation among nations, especially in politics and economic matters.

When did that become a BAD thing?
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Ripclawe said:
The point is if you put everything to a "global Test" nothing will ever get done and everything will be done to block America from protecting its interests and benefits which to me is a helluva lot more important than the interests of France or the UN or any other country. But Kerry being the internationalist and Euro thinker that he is believes this is a-okay which is absurd.

Although the needs of America are definetly of importance to America... it should recognize that its needs also include global stability and harmony. The failure to realise that, in the end not only ill-serves the rest of the world, but America itself.
 

3phemeral

Member
Ripclawe said:
uh no. This pretty much sums up his "global test"
theglobaltest.JPG

That doesn't make sense because you assume that diplomacy wouldn't work in the first place. As people have already stated, bilateral talks with China concerning North Korea's situation would work. If I recall correctly, that's what China wants.

It's interesting to note that during pre-war Iraq, Bush claims that diplomacy didn't work. It didn't work because no one else agreed with the falsified accusations the Iraq had WMDS. The UN's decision to hold off on any course of action was only justified by the administrations inability to successfully locate those same WMD's that they used the power of pre-emptive war for.

You can't argue that you've used diplomacy when the only failing aspect of the discussions were the people who denounce its importance. The U.N didn't fail at this regard, we did.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
Slo said:
Well, it sure would be in our best interest if our European friends would come help us clean up this horrible mess we've gotten ourselves into. Wouldn't it?

1) The Europeans can't do anything because of political, military reasons and they sure can't "clean up" anything at this point unless you go the chamberlain route.

Great you tied that in to the situation in the Sudan... now please tie it into our invasion of Iraq. Jesus why can't I get an answer? How was our invading protecting US interests?

Based on the information the America and other countries intelligence agencies( CIA Director George Tenat "Slam Dunk" on WMDs for example) It was in the best interest to invade Iraq and disarm Saddam who is perceived as a threat. It also protects American's economic, strategic interests by putting us in a position if the House of Saud falls and close to Iran. Thats just one reason BTW.

in·ter·na·tion·al·ism
1. The condition or quality of being international in character, principles, concern, or attitude.
2. A policy or practice of cooperation among nations, especially in politics and economic matters.

When did that become a BAD thing?

When you realize in reality its horse manure and your interests are being blocked by other countries for their own interests. I don't even have a problem with that, but some people just don't understand how world politics work these days.

Although the needs of America are definetly of importance to America... it should recognize that its needs also include global stability and harmony. The failure to realise that, in the end not only ill-serves the rest of the world, but America itself.

global stability and harmony cannot come at our expense such as the EU stupid plan that went up in smoke dealing "diplomatically" with Iran and its Nuke programs. Iran played the Euro 3 for fools so badly, they are now close to the US position that Iran should not have any advanced nuke technology or capabilities to make weapons. Harsh Sanctions which the EU resisted is now on the table.

America positions should never be weakened so it can appease a couple of countries.
 
Ripclawe said:
Why? That is child's play considering the gaffes Kerry made including his global test nonsense.
John Kerry said:
No president, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons.

How is that at all objectionable? Being able to explain that what we're doing is legitimate is a bad prerequisite for preemptive attacks? I don't even see why this would be an issue with Bush supporters. After all, he's tried to explain his reasoning to the country and to the world. He may not have done so very successfully, but he tried to live up to the "global test" Kerry explains.
 

Slo

Member
Ripclawe said:
1) The Europeans can't do anything because of political, military reasons and they sure can't "clean up" anything at this point unless you go the chamberlain route.

All I'm saying is that everyone in the world (except for Poland!!!) said that this war was a bad idea, and we turned our noses up at them. Now we are sitting in a big tub of shit and no one is around to help us out of it.

In hindsight, we should have done a much better job consulting with our Euro buddies before we picked a fight.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
3pheMeraLmiX said:
That doesn't make sense because you assume that diplomacy wouldn't work in the first place. As people have already stated, bilateral talks with China concerning North Korea's situation would work. If I recall correctly, that's what China wants.

There was already talks with North Korea with Madeline Albright and she finally admitted they tricked her by saying they would stop nuclear weapons making. In reality they just kept going. Bilateral talks with China is would not work at all. China wants to stay out of it and pushed for America to talk to NK. After all the saber rattling, blackmailing of countries in the region, they should be rewarded? Absolutely not.

Thats why America is pushing for a 6 party talk with countries that have a vital interest in stopping NK such as China, Russia, Japan, South Korea. So if NK screws up after an agreement he is not snubbing America like he did with Albright and the Clinton Admin. He is angering his natural allies, which would not be good for him.




It's interesting to note that during pre-war Iraq, Bush claims that diplomacy didn't work. It didn't work because no one else agreed with the falsified accusations the Iraq had WMDS. The UN's decision to hold off on any course of action was only justified by the administrations inability to successfully locate thosesame WMD's that they used the power of pre-emptive war for.

UN had vital interests(economically) in NOT having Iraq invaded, it had nothing to do with them knowing if Iraq had WMDs or not.


You can't argue that you've used diplomacy when the only failing aspect of the discussions were the people who denounce its importance. The U.N didn't fail at this regard, we did.

The UN failed miserably in the diplomacy department because they were more interested in protecting their interests than anything of important substance.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Kerry has never said his "global test" was about permission, it's about credibility. It's like whether or not the prosecution has evidence in a case.

...and sorry if I don't sympathize with the ability to invade other countries on a whim.

When you realize in reality its horse manure and your interests are being blocked by other countries for their own interests. I don't even have a problem with that, but some people just don't understand how world politics work these days.
Apparently Bush does!
 

Ripclawe

Banned
JoshuaJSlone said:
How is that at all objectionable? Being able to explain that what we're doing is legitimate is a bad prerequisite for preemptive attacks? I don't even see why this would be an issue with Bush supporters. After all, he's tried to explain his reasoning to the country and to the world. He may not have done so very successfully, but he tried to live up to the "global test" Kerry explains.

We explained it and we did it. Kerry stance is self defeating and he knows it, he would never cross the UN or his Euro buddies to truly protect America's interests. This is know based on his behavior in the Senate where he has been a pacifist of the worst kind and siding with communists who were against our interests.

from Boston GLobe profile

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062003.shtml

At first, Kerry's audacity cost him. Within weeks of taking office in 1985, he was off to Nicaragua, accompanied by reporters on a 36-hour, self-appointed fact-finding mission with another freshman, Democratic Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa. Congressional Democrats had accused the White House of exaggerating the communist threat posed by the Sandinista regime. So the two senators were publicly castigated when -- just days after meeting with Daniel Ortega and other leaders of the regime -- the Sandinistas climbed aboard a plane to Moscow to cement their Soviet ties.

Then there was Grenada

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061903.shtml

Kerry was scornful, for instance, of the Grenada invasion, launched by Reagan the previous October to evacuate US medical students after a Marxist-backed military coup on the Caribbean island.

At one point he likened it to "Boston College playing football against the Sisters of Mercy." Earlier, Kerry told The Cape Codder newspaper:

"The invasion of Grenada represents the Reagan policy of substituting public relations for diplomatic relations . . . no substantial threat to US interests existed and American lives were not endangered . . . The invasion represented a bully's show of force against a weak Third World nation. The invasion only served to heighten world tensions and further strain brittle US/Soviet and North/South relations."

Campaigning now for president, however, Kerry is rewriting that history. As he accuses President George W. Bush of hamhanded diplomacy before the invasion of Iraq, Kerry often lists Grenada among the US military incursions he says he has supported.

changing stance on the first gulf war.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062103.shtml

Still, Kerry's views could be fickle, even on foreign policy. After the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1990, Kerry suggested that the United States needed to give Saddam Hussein enough diplomatic "wiggle room" to leave Kuwait without losing face. He then voted against the congressional resolution authorizing military force, but became an enthusiastic supporter of the war as the allied coalition drove to victory in early 1991. His position was so nuanced that his office couldn't keep up with the changes, at one point mistakenly mailing out letters to his constituents that appeared to take both sides in the debate.

His utterly repugnant support for Vietnam while voting against a human rights bill(this is also where my dislike for McCain goes up)

http://www.gb4hr.net/Pages/Kerry and Vietnam Act.htm

Kerry stand upsets some Vietnamese

By Quynh-Giang Tran, Globe Correspondent, 8/14/2002

Organizers say that more than 200 Vietnamese expatriates and their supporters from around the country will gather at Senator John Kerry's office starting Sunday to protest his efforts to prevent US aid from being tied to Vietnam's human rights record.

The Vietnam Human Rights Act, a bill passed in the House of Representatives last September by a vote of 410 to 1, would restrict nonhumanitarian aid such as economic and agricultural development unless President Bush and the US Department of State certifies that Vietnam is making progress on human rights.

Kerry and Senator John McCain, an Arizona Republican, have used parliamentary maneuvers to prevent the full Senate from considering the measure. The pair, veterans of the Vietnam War and visitors since then, say the bill undermines the US government's ability to promote economic reforms. Kerry said that ongoing relations with Vietnam will promote greater political freedom.


and his damaging behavior in the probe for POWs.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0408/schanberg.php



Other than that, seems like a great guy.
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
Ripclawe said:
Based on the information the America and other countries intelligence agencies( CIA Director George Tenat "Slam Dunk" on WMDs for example) It was in the best interest to invade Iraq and disarm Saddam who is perceived as a threat. It also protects American's economic, strategic interests by putting us in a position if the House of Saud falls and close to Iran. Thats just one reason BTW.
And it's a shitty reason hell if only one other major power on the planet agreed that the intelligent was good shouldn't that have set off some alarms? In retrospect we now know that data was wrong... so when does our President admit that? When do his supports like you admit that? The House of Sauds falls? Where the hell is that coming from? This is the first I've heard of that. And finally your last comment Iran... that's strictly a military reason... so buy invading Iraq we build military bases that enable us in the future to strike Iran if we need to.... so how was Iran a threat to the US again?

When you realize in reality its horse manure and your interests are being blocked by other countries for their own interests. I don't even have a problem with that, but some people just don't understand how world politics work these days.

global stability and harmony cannot come at our expense such as the EU stupid plan that went up in smoke dealing "diplomatically" with Iran and its Nuke programs. Iran played the Euro 3 for fools so badly, they are now close to the US position that Iran should not have any advanced nuke technology or capabilities to make weapons. Harsh Sanctions which the EU resisted is now on the table.

Oh bullocks Internationalism would have stopped us invading Iraq under ths auspices of a bullshit WMD threat.. Internationalism MIGHT have had the UN and other countries continue to attempt to negotiate with Saddam and continue to fail... which would have THEN lead to a coalition that looked alot more like the one that kicked Iraq out of Kuwait... but we'll never know that now.

I'm annoyed by your shift of focus to Iran please stay on focus we are discuss why the US needed to invade Iraq... so in the end your reasons are because we thought their were WMD's there and we need to have bases closes to Iraq...oh yeah and the leadership in Saudi might fall under. So does that mean we need to have bases near wherever we have friendly relations with governments?
 

Ripclawe

Banned
Kerry has never said his "global test" was about permission, it's about credibility. It's like whether or not the prosecution has evidence in a case.

Considering his past history and responses, its about permission. He will not cross the UN or Europe if they disapprove. Its not in him.
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
Ripclawe said:
There was already talks with North Korea with Madeline Albright and she finally admitted they tricked her by saying they would stop nuclear weapons making. In reality they just kept going. Bilateral talks with China is would not work at all. China wants to stay out of it and pushed for America to talk to NK. After all the saber rattling, blackmailing of countries in the region, they should be rewarded? Absolutely not.

If I'm reading this article correctly it doesn't really look like China is trying to "stay out of it".
 

Celicar

Banned
Were any new polls released today? I would like to see if Kerry was able to gain any ground on Bush after his "win" last night.
 
Celicar said:
Were any new polls released today? I would like to see if Kerry was able to gain any ground on Bush after his "win" last night.


No new polls today. The only limited polls only says that Kerry
1. Was able to battle Bush to a draw. Which is a win for him.
2. Had the better presentation.
 

Leon

Junior Member
Wow, if Ripclawe put even HALF of his effort into criticizing and nitpicking BUSH's inconsistencies like he's doing to Kerry right now...Imagine the outcome.
 
About the 200 or so Vietnamese and their supporters: these guys are just like the Cuban exiles. They can't get over the fact that they lost and now hold an everlasting grudge against the Vietnamese government. It's not just about "human rights", they are sore losers.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
Oh bullocks Internationalism would have stopped us invading Iraq under ths auspices of a bullshit WMD threat.. Internationalism MIGHT have had the UN and other countries continue to attempt to negotiate with Saddam and continue to fail... which would have THEN lead to a coalition that looked alot more like the one that kicked Iraq out of Kuwait... but we'll never know that now.

France and Germany were against the War from the beginning, they were NEVER going to join up whatsoever. They were determined to throw roadblocks no matter what considering their economic interests. Saddam was given assurances by France and Germany they would stop America.

The stances of France, Germany, Russia, and China are colored by economic and national interests.
makes for an interesting read.

I'm annoyed by your shift of focus to Iran please stay on focus we are discuss why the US needed to invade Iraq... so in the end your reasons are because we thought their were WMD's there and we need to have bases closes to Iraq...oh yeah and the leadership in Saudi might fall under. So does that mean we need to have bases near wherever we have friendly relations with governments?

Annoyed? I gave Iran as an example to Zaptruder to answer his question on American interests, I have already answered about invading Iraq and why its a lot bigger than get rid of Saddam, but also put us in a position in an unstable region to act quicker.

The House of Sauds falls? Where the hell is that coming from? This is the first I've heard of that.

Its been this way for at least a year

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FH13Ak04.html

House of Saud exits cocoon of denial
By Ehsan Ahrari

The war between the Saudi monarchy and al-Qaeda is fast becoming a struggle between regime survival and regime change. The underlying objective is replacement of the royalist autocrats by puritanical hierocrats. Saudi autocrats are finally convinced that their regime is faced with the possibility of extinction. Consequently, their natural survival instincts have nullified all previous claims that responsibilities for the al-Qaeda-related terrorist acts should really be placed elsewhere.

All-out war between Al Qaeda and house of Saud under way

Slate: The Saudi Civil War, Who is fighting? Who will win?
 
eggplant said:
About the 200 or so Vietnamese and their supporters: these guys are just like the Cuban exiles. They can't get over the fact that they lost and now hold an everlasting grudge against the Vietnamese government. It's not just about "human rights", they are sore losers.

What? <- white guy wondering where the hell this came from
 

Raven.

Banned
We explained it and we did it. Kerry stance is self defeating and he knows it, he would never cross the UN or his Euro buddies to truly protect America's interests. This is know based on his behavior in the Senate where he has been a pacifist of the worst kind and siding with communists who were against our interests.

Ad Hominem attacks, eh ripclawe? Can't provide a logical rebuttal, to that one, so you have to resort to logical fallacies, eh? It doesn't matter what kerry would or wouldn't do, his argument is valid and it involves the president's actions not his. Either you disagree with THE ARGUMENT and provide your reasons or you agree with it, you do NOT ATTACK THE SPEAKER(That is, saying: what kerry's intentions, motives, or what he would do, isn't addressing kerry's criticism.).


Now for some quotes that are in the mood of the thread:

"Bush is suffering from some ailment. It's obvious. He NEVER used to blink furiously, twitch, etc. His face went red so many times, he drank water to the point of ridiculousness, he seemed to be able to contruct decent sentences, but he was simply repeating things he had in his head.. he wasn't thinking about his responses much. He seemed more disjointed than usual.

I am absolutely CONVINCED that Bush is ill,and that is why he is REFUSING to take his physical BEFORE the election. Mark my words! He's ill."
- x democrat

"Did anyone else notice that at times he seemed to have what looked like a minor seizure, where his head shook in short, rapid, vibrating movements. It was especially noticeable around the eyes, and it only occurred when Kerry was speaking. If you have the debate on tape, watch it again for those moments. My ancient (18 years old) cat had a seizure a couple of months ago, and her face at the time looked exactly like his did several times during the debate: sort of vibrating, combined with a blank stare."- another democrat
 

Socreges

Banned
Ripclawe said:
Considering his past history and responses, its about permission. He will not cross the UN or Europe if they disapprove. Its not in him.
If I understand you properly:

Your stance is that America should get whatever it wants and do whatever it would like, without opposition. And this does not apply to other countries. As well, that America deserves that privilege because they are the lone superpower. Am I reading you right?
 
Socreges said:
If I understand you properly:

Your stance is that America should get whatever it wants and do whatever it would like, without opposition. And this does not apply to other countries. As well, that America deserves that privilege because they are the lone superpower. Am I reading you right?


That's kinda scary if that is the truth.
 

DrLazy

Member
If it weren't for the "global test" remark, and I know what Kerry meant, it would have been a complete slaughter last night. The North Korea argument made Kerry look a tad "unilateral" as well. Again, I know what he meant by it, but still. Then there was Bush.

Bush Gaffes:

1. Don't forget Poland
2. I know Osama Bin Laden attacked us!
3. Looked nervous, short, and pouty, like a little kid not getting his way
4. Sounded like broken record with Kerry "inconsistancies" when Kerry shot down argument by stating Iraq war position succintly
5. I sit down with foreign leaders all the time / I sit down with FBI director - sounded foolish
6. I know how war is "hard work" I see it on the TV.

Kerry kicked your ass Bush, and all the major papers seem to agree:

Wahington Post survey of major papers

My guess is Bush will do one thing and one thing only: Harp on the "GLOBAL TEST" remark, Kerry's lone Gaffe in the debate.
 

Triumph

Banned
Divus Masterei said:
That's the same as giving your vote to Bush in this most crucial of elections. From all I've seen kerry is america's last hope, by not voting for him you're doing a disservice to your country and helping to hand the election to Bush... besides Nader Knows what he's doing, and if you've read up on him, you'd realize he's just more of the same a puppet, just a sugar coated poisonous apple(for the snow whites out there). HIS sole true purpose is to make the election closer, by taking votes from kerry, so that diebold can be used and the election stolen again.

Know this if, Bush wins, the supreme court will most likely take a turn for the worst(up to four may retire, and bush's said he likes scalia and the like, judges who're quoted as saying "my constitution is a very flexible constitution"), environmental policy will be tossed out the window, the deficit will grow even more, public services all across the board will suffer, more wars are likely, therapeutic cloning bans are likely, the globe will become even more unstable... I mean my God, the supreme court is all we've left, if it goes...

Just imagine now, just imagine...the next time congress could very well be filled with reps. to the brim by a more blatant abuse of diebold... things like the "constitution restoration act of 2004", and "the federal marriage amendment" , abortion bans, patriot act expansions, and the like, will most likely pass, and with the supreme court on their side, they'll let it go through, they'll actually make it through.
Blah blah blah...more of the same anti Nader tripe from someone who obviously hasn't done much research on the man or his positions other than taking his party's talking points as law.

If you had, you'd realize that he's the only candidate trying to make an issue out of the lack of paper ballots that seems to be worrying you so much.

And I'll say one thing further- a vote for Ralph Nader, or David Cobb, or even Michael Badnarik is not "a vote for Bush". A vote for Bush is a vote for Bush. Votes are EARNED, like respect. I respect a candidate that is willing to champion the issues that I care about. I respect a candidate that is willing to speak truth in the house of lies that American politics has become, owned lock stock and barrel by the Corporate Overlords that this current criminal administration has put in charge of regulating their own industries. I vote for who I respect. I have never, and will never respect John Kerry to that degree. He will NEVER get my vote. Howard Dean MIGHT have gotten my vote. I almost doubt Ralph would have run if Dean had won the nomination. Regardless, if Ralph Nader weren't running, I probably wouldn't be voting for President. I would still vote, but would likely write in Alfred E. Neuman's name. His slogan is more apt for these times than anything you're going to get from those bunch of toadying lap dogs from the Democratic Party, or god forbid the Republicans.

In closing, NEVER AGAIN try to tell me that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. This is factually untrue. Thank you and good day, sir.
 

etiolate

Banned
If I didn't vote Nader, I'd vote republican for certain reasons. Please stop blaming Nader voters just because your party of choice keeps picking douchebag candidates.
 

ge-man

Member
I hate it when people bring Nader into this. There's a huge assumption that Nader people would have went one way if he wasn't present on the ballot. The excuse is an easy way out of more pressing question--why isn't our canidate strong enough to completely shake off a Nader as a threat?
 

Pimpwerx

Member
Raoul Duke said:
Blah blah blah...more of the same anti Nader tripe from someone who obviously hasn't done much research on the man or his positions other than taking his party's talking points as law.

If you had, you'd realize that he's the only candidate trying to make an issue out of the lack of paper ballots that seems to be worrying you so much.

And I'll say one thing further- a vote for Ralph Nader, or David Cobb, or even Michael Badnarik is not "a vote for Bush". A vote for Bush is a vote for Bush. Votes are EARNED, like respect. I respect a candidate that is willing to champion the issues that I care about. I respect a candidate that is willing to speak truth in the house of lies that American politics has become, owned lock stock and barrel by the Corporate Overlords that this current criminal administration has put in charge of regulating their own industries. I vote for who I respect. I have never, and will never respect John Kerry to that degree. He will NEVER get my vote. Howard Dean MIGHT have gotten my vote. I almost doubt Ralph would have run if Dean had won the nomination. Regardless, if Ralph Nader weren't running, I probably wouldn't be voting for President. I would still vote, but would likely write in Alfred E. Neuman's name. His slogan is more apt for these times than anything you're going to get from those bunch of toadying lap dogs from the Democratic Party, or god forbid the Republicans.

In closing, NEVER AGAIN try to tell me that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. This is factually untrue. Thank you and good day, sir.

Damn right! Had a discussion with a couple friends last night about this. I told them I was voting Nader and they both gave me that look of horror, like "OH NO!" They told me the vote for nader = vote for bush stuff, and I laughed. But after I explained that I was voting my conscience, they understood. It's not like they were fanatic or anything, just more people who really hate Bush and will cut their nose to spite their face. I don't think Kerry is a significant enough improvement over Bush. Yeah, he's better, but a a dried turd is better than Bush. That doesn't win my vote. I never voted before b/c I never believed in it, but now I feel I need to vote for a change, and Nader/CAMEJO is it. I like Camejo more than Nader. Camejo has some awesome ideas, so I will vote for him no matter what ticket he's on. Kerry deserves to lose this election b/c he's just not a very good candidate. The only Dems I would have wanted to vote for would be Dean or Kucinich. Kerry was not the best option. PEACE.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
I tend to stay out of any political discussions here, but I will say that I cannot, for the life of me, see anyone with a shred of sense believing that Bush did anything in this debate but get totally and completely owned.

Bush came off as a flustered little child that by the end of the night wanted very much for Kerry to just go away.
 

Raven.

Banned
Blah blah blah...more of the same anti Nader tripe from someone who obviously hasn't done much research on the man or his positions other than taking his party's talking points as law.

If you had, you'd realize that he's the only candidate trying to make an issue out of the lack of paper ballots that seems to be worrying you so much..

He doesn't seem to be making that much of an issue, maybe he's said he's concerned, but I've yet to see any mass national movement directed by him bringing the possibility for real change prior to november. Has nader been strongly emphasizing this point, is it one of his main and loudest point he goes over at every chance he can? I don't think so, for I've not heard of it(though I may be mistaken, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), if it's just something he says from time to time in his speeches, what does that tell you? Same as those fox "we're unbiased, no hidden agenda" comments, just bold lies to reassure they ain't up to nothing.... rightttttttt... In any case, regardless of what he says, ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. NADER KNOWS VERY WELL IT WAS HIS INTERFERENCE THAT ALLOWED THE DISASTER that took place in the year 2000, and HE KNOWS HE'S TAKING kerry's votes and threatening this nation with the reelection of Bush. HE can speak whatever he wants, his motives are clear as water for those who dare to see through his cloud of lies by LOOKING AT HIS ACTIONS AND THEIR INTENDED CONSEQUENCES, his intent is the re-election of President Bush.

And I'll say one thing further- a vote for Ralph Nader, or David Cobb, or even Michael Badnarik is not "a vote for Bush". A vote for Bush is a vote for Bush. Votes are EARNED, like respect..

Well, let's make it clear in this election there are only TWO CHOICES, no matter how you wanna slice it or look at it. Unless an act of divine intervention takes place, not likely, either BUSH or KERRY will be in the whitehouse next year. Now your actions are what will speak the loudest, not your thoughts not your ideals not your words, the election is close and those actions may very well decide who wins. By not voting fo kerry, you're inacting/neglecting, you're putting america in jeopardy, for the odds go ever closer to Bush winning. NO VOTE OR A VOTE FOR SOME OTHER LIBERAL CANDIDATE, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, will result in INCREASING BUSH CHANCES of winning. That is the consequence of your actions, and in knowledge of DIEBOLD, you very well know that a close election is extremely likely to be stolen by this system and handed to BUSH... so you've increased BUSH odds of winning significantly, actions work by increasing the odds a particular event may happen( i.e. getting on a train increases your odds of getting to that destination, poisoning someone significantly increases odds of death, etc), and your actions are working in BUSH favor.

In closing, NEVER AGAIN try to tell me that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. This is factually untrue. Thank you and good day, sir.
.

Unless you can prove my above paragraph is logically inconsistent, it is the truth, and I must always speak that which seems to be the truth. Whether you intent to for another to die, give the election to someone, or the like or not, either through ACTION OR INACTION/NEGLECT, it can result in that event taking place. Your decision not to help a lone dying man, will increase his odds of dying, your decision not to vote or to vote for nader will increase the odds of Bush winning significantly(a close election will be more easily stolen by DIEBOLD), it is an action that is favorable to BUSH.

Let me give you an example: if you know of the atrocities that may take place at the hands of a particular man, and you do nothing to stop him though you may have been able to do something, then you're partly responsible. (cough Peter Parker cough).

Just a reminder, the supreme court may see, from what I've heard, up to four judges retiring. Bush's called the likes of Scalia exemplary, this is the kind of judge that may very well replace'em.
If I didn't vote Nader, I'd vote republican for certain reasons. Please stop blaming Nader voters just because your party of choice keeps picking douchebag candidates.
.

'm just speaking the truth, and I know it hurts, but it's still the truth.

Whether you like it or not, your eyes are better open then closed, especially at this must pivotal moment. Let ye see the consequences of your actions, the AMERICA YOUR CHOICES ARE HELPING TO CREATE, DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY, with intent or without, this is what you're doing:

Question:"Justice Scalia, in your view, does the Constitution prohibit the execution of innocent persons?"

Answer: "NO.."- Scalia
.

Scalia....

Scalia said that the Constitution has nothing to say about executing children down to at least the age of 14 and, "theoretically" anyway, executing "anyone over the age of 7."

Justice Antonin Scalia: "There is no basis in text, tradition, or even contemporary practice for finding in the Constitution a right to demand judicial consideration of newly discovered evidence of innocence brought forward after conviction."

Justice Antonin Scalia:"My Constitution is
a very flexible Constitution."
.

When he saw the bodies of the American mercenaries despoiled in Fallujah, Massey's first thought was "we do the same thing to them," he told The Independent. Iraqis "would see us debase their dead all the time." His unit was killing so many innocent people, including women and children, that he told his commanding officer he felt "we were committing genocide." The commander's response: "You're a wimp."

General Ralph Eberhart, head of America's first domestic military command, said the Regime must now bring the experience learned on foreign battlefields to the "Homeland" itself, including the integration of police, military and intelligence forces, "wide-area surveillance of the United States" and "urban warfare tactics," GovExec.com reports.- march 2004

But, you may be right, we've not seen this before, an extremist-right-wing-neo-con legislative branch(maybe even MORE one-sided then ever thanks to future more blatant uses of diebold), an executive branch that seems to blur the line between church-state, and a supreme court that would permit blatant attacks against the constitution, human rights, and democracy itself(constitution restoration act, marriage amendments- this one did not pass, but with a more blatant use of diebold, congress could very well end up even more one-sided, and with the supreme court backing this sort of thing could end up as laws, laws upheld by the courts.). Let see the constitution fight off a concerted tri-pronged attack from all three branches, let see if it does not fall against such.

Let's hope the atrocities done by americans on foreign soil are not brought to the HOMELAND.

PS As for nader, I know not if the following is true, but they've good sources( like NYtimes, washington times, fortune, Wall Street Journal, LAtimes, Washington post, cnn, and the like), so take it with a few piles of salt, but it may still be a peak at the nader iceberg's truth:

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

If even some of this is true then he deserves respect... for his cunningness/deceitfulness :D
 

Raven.

Banned
"In the longer term, Mr. Bush should have more freedom to choose conservative nominees to fill any increasingly likely Supreme Court vacancies in the next two years," writes the New York Times. "The president has said he would seek to choose someone in the mold of two of the most conservative justices, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas."( a bit old, now it's said to be up to four judges)

Antonin Scalia, appointed by Reagan, is just the kind of Christian fanatic Bush thinks should be sitting in judgment of our liberty and lives. Scalia, not unlike the two fundamentalist nutcakes Robertson and Falwell -- or, for that matter, Osama bin Laden -- believes his ethnocentric God works through its "minister," the state. "The reaction of people of faith to this tendency of democracy to obscure the divine authority behind government should not be resignation to it, but the resolution to combat it as effectively as possible," Scalia told the University of Chicago Divinity School in January. "Indeed, it seems to me, that the more Christian a country is the less likely it is to regard the death penalty as immoral. Abolition has taken its firmest hold in post-Christian Europe, and has least support in the churchgoing United States. I attribute that to the fact that for the believing Christian, death is no big deal."

Or, as that self-aggrandizing, often annoying Democratic operative James Carville said after the Republicans took the election:

"The American people just don't have a clue as to what's coming."

-Kurt Nimmo

[inferences from scalia comments in my last two posts]So the gov. has a right to kill innocents, evidence for innocence after a trial is not necessarily acceptable, children can be put to the death penalty, and the constitution is very flexible, and should be in support of God's word which is were the authority of the state is obtained(not from the people who're governed and who elect the officials).... and we're gonna get a supreme court filled with like-minded individuals... righhthttttttt.....

Just know, that if things go for the worst, that if the worst comes to be, you were but a small part which contributed to it, to this new america.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
seismologist said:
That was classic.

I keep hearing how a lot of Bush's appeal is that "he sounds like one of us" (this was mentioned a lot in defense of his poor performance), but damn, are any of us stupid enough to say this, especially on live tv, during a presidential debate? Unreal. How is that his complete cluelessness is considered appealing by some? I mean, sure, I have tons of neighborhood friends that I can shoot the shit with, maybe down a beer and argue sports all day, that sort of thing, but I would leave the country faster than Roman Polanski if they ever became president.
 

ge-man

Member
My dad mentioned that the creator of the Boondocks comic strip basically posed that question on Aaron Brown's show right after the debate to Aaron's horror. People in the media outside of pundents like Bill Maher have been too afraid to bring up this point. The guy is more than inarticulate--fours years latter I'm still not convince that he is not borderline retarded.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
ge-man said:
My dad mentioned that the creator of the Boondocks comic strip basically posed that question on Aaron Brown's show right after the debate to Aaron's horror. People in the media outside of pundents like Bill Maher have been too afraid to bring up this point. The guy is more than inarticulate--fours years latter I'm still not convince that he is not borderline retarded.

It's not even that I dislike him for being what he is. It's just that there's no way in hell I would trust this guy to make decisions that require the effort of thinking. This effort obviously peeves Bush, as the debate showed.
 

Socreges

Banned
ge-man said:
My dad mentioned that the creator of the Boondocks comic strip basically posed that question on Aaron Brown's show right after the debate to Aaron's horror. People in the media outside of pundents like Bill Maher have been too afraid to bring up this point. The guy is more than inarticulate--fours years latter I'm still not convince that he is not borderline retarded.
I caught that, yeah. He would say: "The man is STUPID. Why won't anyone talk about that? He's the president and he's just STUPID." Seemed like CNN had no idea he was going to be that blunt. Aaron Brown was having him check his conscious throughout. :)
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Socreges said:
I caught that, yeah. He would say: "The man is STUPID. Why won't anyone talk about that? He's the president and he's just STUPID." Seemed like CNN had no idea he was going to be that blunt. Aaron Brown was having him check his conscious throughout. :)

That's the problem--no one will come out and say these things, even though it was plain as day during the debate. Let's put it this way, if you were interviewing Dubya for a nice, lofty position at some fancy job and he responded that way to your questions, would you hire him? I mean, seriously, that was the performance of someone whose resume resides permanently in the trash can. Nervous, fidgety, can't think on his feet, flustered. All that shit.
 

Triumph

Banned
Divus Masterei said:
Well, let's make it clear in this election there are only TWO CHOICES, no matter how you wanna slice it or look at it.

Ugh. Yeah. I have the option to write in any candidate(or non-candidate! I could write in your name, but the apparent lack of knowledge you have about the inner workings of our electoral system, in addition to the fact that you're probably all of 19, give me pause...), any how, I have the option to write in ANY CANDIDATE'S name because I only have two choices. There are at least 3 candidates listed on my ballot initially because ONLY TWO of them are available to vote for. You need to realize that you are LOGICALLY INCORRECT, sir.

Unless you can prove my above paragraph is logically inconsistent, it is the truth, and I must always speak that which seems to be the truth.

I just did! Holy monkey! You really don't know much about the finer workings of logic, do you? Ability to vote for any candidate, even if they aren't Kerry, does not = vote for Bush. Vote for Bush = vote for Bush. Seriously. You don't want to try and use logic to make your emotional, talking point fueled arguments against me.

Let me give you an example: if you know of the atrocities that may take place at the hands of a particular man, and you do nothing to stop him though you may have been able to do something, then you're partly responsible. (cough Peter Parker cough).

Just a reminder, the supreme court may see, from what I've heard, up to four judges retiring. Bush's called the likes of Scalia exemplary, this is the kind of judge that may very well replace'em.


'm just speaking the truth, and I know it hurts, but it's still the truth.

No, the TRUTH is that you are recycling DNC talking points to attempt to forge an argument. Logic is on my side, not yours. The operations of the electoral system are on my side, not yours. And ultimately, truth is on my side, not yours.

And let me say, that what one bad man does(Bush) is not going to be noticeably worse than what a mediocre man(Kerry) will do in the same instance.

In closing, I would urge to no longer address me regarding this matter. Your ignorance on Ralph Nader is evident, as is your ignorance on what a John Kerry Presidency will actually mean. Better than shit doesn't mean much. Good day, sir.
 
Divus Masterei said:
his motives are clear as water for those who dare to see through his cloud of lies by LOOKING AT HIS ACTIONS AND THEIR INTENDED CONSEQUENCES
The way I see it, he's helping force voting reform as an issue. If they couldn't potentially affect the outcome of the election, noone would have to pay attention. If the major parties would start shifting to a less ass method of voting, the third party group would be something to try to appeal to, not lash out violently at.

NO VOTE OR A VOTE FOR SOME OTHER LIBERAL CANDIDATE, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, will result in INCREASING BUSH CHANCES of winning.
As a man who will probably write in Nader in a predeterminedly red state, my vote will have 0.0000000% effect on anyone's chances. THANKS ELECTORAL COLLEGE.
 

Socreges

Banned
I'd like to point out that Raoul Duke, no matter what you say, will not possibly respond with anything to the effect of:

"You make very good points. I think I will abstain from voting for Ralph Nader, as I have loudly trumpeted several times in the past months, and place my vote for one John Kerry!"

I can't imagine ANYONE going back after all of that he's said.

Raoul, what IS your logic? Yes, technically you can vote for whoever you'd like. There are more than two parties. And yes, maybe on some grounds EVERYONE should simply vote for who they feel the best candidate is, regardless of circumstance. But can you explain to me why I shouldn't think that's all irrelevant?

To try and understand where you're coming from, rather than just concluding that you're trying to be different/???????, are you, in effect, voting for 'democracy'? In that, if people continue to vote for who they feel is the best candidate and promote that concept, there is a chance that things could change?

On another note, the Electoral College is retarded.
 
Socreges said:
To try and understand where you're coming from, rather than just concluding that you're trying to be different/???????, are you, in effect, voting for 'democracy'? In that, if people continue to vote for who they feel is the best candidate and promote that concept, there is a chance that things could change?

It is for me. Though on the small chance that I'd happen to be in a state with incredibly close numbers in an unusually close election, I might consider voting... strategically. *washes hands*

As for Raoul... he just doesn't like John Kerry. Why would someone who doesn't like John Kerry or think he'd do a satisfactory job as President vote for him?
 

Socreges

Banned
JoshuaJSlone said:
It is for me. Though on the small chance that I'd happen to be in a state with incredibly close numbers in an unusually close election, I might consider voting... strategically. *washes hands*
If I was American, and respected Nader more than Kerry, I'd do the same thing.
JoshuaJSlone said:
As for Raoul... he just doesn't like John Kerry. Why would someone who doesn't like John Kerry or think he'd do a satisfactory job as President vote for him?
As for that question, because Bush would be much worse. Remember, anyone but Bush! I saw some guy say that he'd rather vote for his sandwich if he had the chance.

But I know what you're saying. He said this:

And let me say, that what one bad man does(Bush) is not going to be noticeably worse than what a mediocre man(Kerry) will do in the same instance.
But as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't truly believe that. It softens the blow of voting for Nader if he paints Kerry very, very poorly.
 

Dilbert

Member
From a literal point of view, Raoul is 100% correct: A vote for Nader is NOT a vote for Bush.

With that being said, I DO want to point something out for Raoul's sake. Depending on how you phrase your stated goal, then how you vote makes a difference. If your goal is to "elect Ralph Nader in 2004," then you clearly ought to vote for Nader. On the other hand, if your goal is to "make sure that Bush is defeated in 2004," then you ought to vote for the non-Bush candidate with the greatest chance of winning -- otherwise, your vote will have acted in a way to oppose your goal.

Whether or not you think the de facto two-party system is a good thing or a pile of shit, it is the pragmatic REALITY that you have to deal with when making your vote. It's up to you to decide whether a sincere vote towards a doomed candidate is more important than defeating a truly bad candidate.
 
Anyone else see this article in the New York Times? Not 100% debate-related, but Jesus Christ. At least the Rather debacle wasn't as blatantly ugly. An excerpt:

Fabricated Kerry Posting Leads to Apology from Fox News
By ERIC LICHTBLAU

Published: October 3, 2004


WASHINGTON, Oct. 2 - Plenty of news media analysts thought Senator John Kerry looked good at Thursday night's presidential debate, but Fox News went a step further, posting a made-up news article on its Web site that quoted Mr. Kerry as gloating about his fine manicure and his "metrosexual" appearance.

Fox News quickly retracted the article, saying in an editor's note on its Web site that the article "was written in jest and should not have been posted or broadcast.'' It said, "We regret the error, which occurred because of fatigue and bad judgment, not malice."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/03/politics/campaign/03fox.html

...and has anyone else been enjoying Karl Rove's ferocious blathering? Getting that man out of his hovel and into the daylight is difficult enough, but damn he's chatty. Foaming at the mouth and shit. Yikes.


*Noel Coward Parody
 

DrLazy

Member
I think Democrats have to be careful about the post debate spin going on. The Republicans are ultra focused on one thing: the "Global Test" remark. On all the cable networks and Sunday news shows they were hammering it home. God I hate the "talking points" news era we live in. That's why the debates were so refreshing, it was difficult to take opponents out of context because they were there to respond and have a real discussion about the issues. Can't wait for the next one.
 
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