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[Crossing Eden]

Yes, SE are a bunch of biggots. In the world, there are only strong, powerful and virtuous women, any game that deviates from this true standard is clearly sexist, even if there is one strong powerful woman in it. No woman, like Cindy, would ever use her assets to seduce men. Luna, a character we know almost nothing about in the actual game, is clearly a misrepresentation of all women in the world.

Oh, and we have no black people, there is no gay dude, we still need that lesbian character, and we can't forget about our native american friends, and that other transsexual person too, until then SE is a bunch of no good sexist biggots. Man, I hate them so much, they are the true ailment that is bringing down our society with their backward views! They all should be, you know, like be jobless or something! They always in all of their games ever misrepresent women! Their portrayal of men is always adequate though.

Yes because this is exactly with people are saying. Smh. I suppose not using your brain and coming up with a strawman is easier than actually refuting points in a discussion.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Yes, SE are a bunch of biggots. In the world, there are only strong, powerful and virtuous women, any game that deviates from this true standard is clearly sexist, even if there is one strong powerful woman in it. No woman, like Cindy, would ever use her assets to seduce men. Luna, a character we know almost nothing about in the actual game, is clearly a misrepresentation of all women in the world.

Oh, and we have no black people, there is no gay dude, we still need that lesbian character, and we can't forget about our native american friends, and that other transsexual person too, until then SE is a bunch of no good sexist biggots. Man, I hate them so much, they are the true ailment that is bringing down our society with their backward views! They all should be, you know, like be jobless or something! They always in all of their games ever misrepresent women! Their portrayal of men is always adequate though.

There should be a sign that reads "Your eloquence has to be THIS high to use sarcasm", it would spare us from so many gruesome accidents.

 

[Zhutchka]

That's LITERALLY what it means.

How come? If it's the motivations behind it, then it's not the outfit by itself anymore is it... I've already given my reasons for making the distinction. And various replies have already shown that my observation was relevant.

Oh gee, it's almost like the camera is constantly ogling too, or that her mocap actress was instructed to pose in a very specific way. Even her idle pose has an arched back and you're trying to make it seem like we're the issue and not the design. It's not just the outfit, it's a combination of things.

I don't know why you bother responding if you don't bother reading what I've been writing or even what you're quoting. I could not have been more clear that I have no issue with people being critical of the character's role and how she's been portrayed. I'm critical myself. I don't think otaku-pandering has a valid place in a FF game, and I think it likely at this point that it's more or less what she amounts to.

 

[belteshazzar]

Yes because this is exactly with people are saying. Smh. I suppose not using your brain and coming up with a strawman is easier than actually refuting points in a discussion.

I don't know what "with people are saying" means. I've read the thread, have you? Or have you only read what you want to read?

 

[dramatis]

That still doesn't mean the outfit or design by itself is gross or male-gaze oriented, but rather the concept of making a character purely for the purpose of filling that pandering role (if that's what Cindy indeed is, and I'll concede that most of what we've seen at this point indicates that). And I've not once disagreed with the latter.

This goes for far from everyone criticising the concept/creation/inclusion of the character, but there's definitely an undercurrent of users in this thread that would struggle to look past her outfit no matter what, which I've specifically pointed out over and over. In the context of this thread it seems pretty hypocritical, and if you were to apply it to real life, pretty troubling. And part of this thread does indeed remind me of the reactions when the mainstream fashion trend of women wearing impossibly short jeans shorts during summer started about a decade ago where I lived.

I also think the practicality argument is completely nonense in the context of this game, and that it keeps getting brought up only for Cindy hints at something. I mean, even the main casts alternative costumes we've seen so far seems to be pretty much a competiton for being the most impractial outfit for their task at hand. Fighting giant scorpions in the desert sun in black designer suits... Pretty sure repairing a vehicle in the nude is a good idea in comparison.

I think you have it backwards. Take your first sentence and flip it around.

Making a character for the purpose of a pandering role naturally leads to a gross, male-gaze oriented costume and character design. The animations they decide to make for her naturally pander to the male gaze. The camera angles they pick naturally pander to the male gaze.

The genesis of why Cidney is gross isn't in our heads; it's that we can see past the buffoonery and see the intent behind her character clear as day. It is broadcasted in her animations, in the camera angles, in her treatment by other characters, and in her visual appearance. Darth Vader is not wearing black and a crazy mask helmet because the audience created the idea that he is a villain. Darth Vader is wearing black because the director, writers, costume designers know this character is a villain and has a secret and therefore his visual look augments those aspects in his character's backstory and role.

What is bothersome isn't that we are the ones taking the 'anyone who wears that is gross' idea to reality, but that male players think about women using the examples they see in their cultural products. "I see girls dressed like that everyday outside"—I live in NYC, a very diverse, populated city, and rest assured majority of 'girls' do not run around outside during summer dressed like Cidney. Male players rationalize and normalize their idea of what a good-looking woman should be based on unrealistic images, and moreover they reduce women to objects themselves. One of the appalling posts back when Cidney was first introduced, I won't forget, was a poster on GAF who quoted a picture of full-body Cidney and saying, callously, "That is the hottest thing I have ever seen."

"Thing."

Do you really think that there isn't some sort of poison here, after Gamergate?

The practicality argument would have less bite if 1) 15 did not bill itself as a "fantasy based on reality" and put high emphasis on photorealism in its world (animals, buildings, etc.) and 2) if Cid the proper had been dressed as absurdly. However, Cid is wearing a set of clothes that could pass for practical clothing. Cidney is not. What's the difference? Because Cid is the actual mechanic, while Cidney is the eye candy.

 

[.JayZii]

If she's supposed to resemble a mid-late twentieth century mechanic, (while also simultaneously using an iphone but ignore that because reasons), she should look more like this:

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but you keep bringing up the iphone thing, and it's weird and not really a good point for your argument. Mechanics today wear pretty much the same thing they've been wearing since the mid-late twentieth century, and they now have iphones. So...

 

[Crossing Eden]

How come? If it's the motivations behind it, then it's not the outfit by itself anymore is it... I've already given my reasons for making the distinction. And various replies have already shown that my observation was relevant.

The point is there is no motivation, there's been no indication of a motivation behind why she dresses the way she does, or moves the way she does, she just does it, it's a looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, most likely is a duck type of situation, not a "no you're the real sexist, Cindy wanted to dress that way." situation, the former is something that's incredibly common in Japanese games and getting even more common as their industry declines while the latter is something people come up with while doing mental gymnastics to justify the former.

I don't know why you bother responding if you don't bother reading what I've been writing or even what you're quoting. I could not have been more clear that I have no issue with people being critical of the character's role and how she's been portrayed. I'm critical myself. I don't think otaku-pandering has a valid place in a FF game, and I think it likely at this point that it's more or less what she amounts to.

Good.

I don't know what "with people are saying" means. I've read the thread, have you? Or have you only read what you want to read?

Read the thread and tell me where people even began remotely about black and trans characters not being in the game. Or lesbian and gay characters, or native americans. In fact don't even bother since i've already checked with the search function, you'd do well on VOAT with that kinda shitposting.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but you keep bringing up the iphone thing, and it's weird and not really a good point for your argument. Mechanics today wear pretty much the same thing they've been wearing since the mid-late twentieth century, and they now have iphones. So...

It's odd to see them have older cars yet the best phones and camping equipment. Like I get that outside of Lucis is less advanced civilization, but it's still the 21st century that they're going for.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Yet incredibly close to this is Altissia, which is basically FF's version of Venice and looks modern as hell.


If she's supposed to resemble a mid-late twentieth century mechanic, (while also simultaneously using an iphone but ignore that because reasons), she should look more like this:

or this:

which not shockingly, looks incredibly similar to the outfit someone on tumblr designed. Her outfit as it's designed now, (especially with the thong and bra), is just pandering garbage that makes no sense in the grand scheme of things. And like the post above me said, she's a mechanic, not a pin-up model.

It's not clear to me where you're going with this here.

Yes, it's a stupid outfit and is not reasonable for a mechanic. I didn't dispute that (maybe you're confused about who you're arguing with?)

And yes, the design of FF XV's world is full of anachronism (I didn't design the world -- maybe, again, you're somewhat confused about who you're arguing with?)

My point was that Cidney was designed in vein of a particular type of media representation of Southern American girl who hangs around a garage. Like, for example, Daisy Duke. Do you dispute that? Do you not think Cidney is supposed to evoke something like Daisy Duke? Daisy Duke is not, in-fiction, a pin-up.

And, further, that the world design of Lucis outside of Isomnia clearly references a particular flavor of Southern Americana. The operant word here is "reference." I.e., it is not a verisimilitudinous representation of the American South. But then, I never said it was, so I'm not sure whey you keep hitting that point.

So I'm not sure exactly how we're in disagreement unless you think:

A. Cidney is not a visual reference to Daisy Duke type fictional characters.
B. There is no design reference to Southern Americana in Lucis.

You may want to respond about how stupid and regressive Daisy Duke is, and how FF should reference real world history instead of 1980s depictions of fictional Southern Americana. Great, I don't have strong opinions on those subjects.

You may want to again state how stupid and pandering Cidney's outfit. Indeed, I agree with you on that front.

You may want to rail against the injustice of a world in which a game designer would put a Venice-like city next to a Southern-Americana Garage. Great, forward that concern on to Tabata and co.

Again, and I emphasize this because you seem to be operating under the assumption that I'm making a strong defense of Cidney's design as A. reasonable and B. not pandering, my point was made as part of a side discussion about design congruity and its role in excusing or not excusing pandering designs. My point, by the way, was that it doesn't do much to excuse pandering designs.

So what exactly are you trying to convince me of that I don't already believe?

 

[Vlaphor]

Do you really think that there isn't some sort of poison here, after Gamergate?

Nope, not at all. Fuck GG and anyone who flies under their banner or who has ever used the term SJW as a pejorative. Hooray for Cidney, and I'll gladly take more please.

Please don't treat GG like some convenient boogyman that you can help use to bolster your argument.

Also, in terms of use of the word "thing"...well, Cidney is a thing, as is everyone and everything else in this game. I'll admit that I've used some improper language myself, saying things like "girls" to reference full grown women, and I've tried to catch and improve myself, but there is a significant difference between calling a person a "thing" and calling a created character in a video game a "thing". I don't know the context the person said this in, but I do not believe there is a 1:1 similarity.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's not clear to me where you're going with this here.

Yes, it's a stupid outfit and is not reasonable for a mechanic. I didn't dispute that (maybe you're confused about who you're arguing with?)

And yes, the design of FF XV's world is full of anachronism (I didn't design the world -- maybe, again, you're somewhat confused about who you're arguing with?)

My point was that Cidney was designed in vein of a particular type of media representation of Southern American girl who hangs around a garage. Like, for example, Daisy Duke. Do you dispute that? Do you not think Cidney is supposed to evoke something like Daisy Duke? Daisy Duke is not, in-fiction, a pin-up.

And, further, that the world design of Lucis outside of Isomnia clearly references a particular flavor of Southern Americana. The operant word here is "reference." I.e., it is not a verisimilitudinous representation of the American South. But then, I never said it was, so I'm not sure whey you keep hitting that point.

So I'm not sure exactly how we're in disagreement unless you think:

A. Cidney is not a visual reference to Daisy Duke type fictional characters.
B. There is no design reference to Southern Americana in Lucis.

You may want to respond about how stupid and regressive Daisy Duke is, and how FF should reference real world history instead of 1980s depictions of fictional Southern Americana. Great, I don't have strong opinions on those subjects.

You may want to again state how stupid and pandering Cidney's outfit. Indeed, I agree with you on that front.

You may want to rail against the injustice of a world in which a game designer would put a Venice-like city next to a Southern-Americana Garage. Great, forward that concern on to Tabata and co.

Again, and I emphasize this because you seem to be operating under the assumption that I'm making a strong defense of Cidney's design as A. reasonable and B. not pandering, my point was made as part of a side discussion about design congruity and its role in excusing or not excusing pandering designs. My point, by the way, was that it doesn't do much to excuse pandering designs.

So what exactly are you trying to convince me of that I don't already believe?

I misread your point as I thought you were defending the design itself. The game has a huge design problem if they're going for media representations of the South, (when they were willing to take go out and take pictures of rocks), instead of sticking to their "fantasy based on reality" tagline for characters like Cindy.

 

[PtM]

I also think the practicality argument is completely nonense in the context of this game, and that it keeps getting brought up only for Cindy hints at something. I mean, even the main casts alternative costumes we've seen so far seems to be pretty much a competiton for being the most impractial outfit for their task at hand. Fighting giant scorpions in the desert sun in black designer suits... Pretty sure repairing a vehicle in the nude is a good idea in comparison.

No, I mean that. If Cindy wasn't a mechanic, she would be only half as bad. World building and such.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I'm seeing a lot of the usual stale and fallacious "counterarguments" used by people that think they're being original or even thought-provoking, so I'm going to be true to my word and repost this thing of beauty that Llyrwenne made. Hell, I think it could be added to the OP.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Nope, not at all. Fuck GG and anyone who flies under their banner or who has ever used the term SJW as a pejorative. Hooray for Cidney, and I'll gladly take more please.
.

I hope your not saying you'll take more embarrassing Michael bay pandering camera zooms and shitty non characters only used to exploit DLC and audiences on the base level interested sexually in virtual pixels.

We need actual characters, not try hard gimmicks, especially when they claim they are trying to sell us a serious story to be taken seriously.

If Cindy were an actual party member or a very important character in the story, taking the place of old Cid entirely with less of the pandering marketing, i could excuse her outfit, but i can not defend what we've seen so far.

Maybe that'll change with the full game, but i would not bank on it.

 

[YankeeDonB]

I misread your point as I thought you were defending the design itself. The game has a huge design problem if they're going for media representations of the South, (when they were willing to take go out and take pictures of rocks), instead of sticking to their "fantasy based on reality" tagline for characters like Cindy.

No worries, there are lots of different threads flying around in here. I'm 100% of the mind that Cidney is a bad design (clothing, not model). I just don't think the flavor of her bad design came out of nowhere. It more or less fits the design references of her region (yes, in a regressive and impractical way).

The number of different design references in FF XV's world is indeed quite something. But there is undeniably a Southern Americana flavor to Lucis. The function is supposed to be a stark contrast to the high tech city. Whether it's the best way to do that, and in a world that also has places like Altissia, well, that's probably a different discussion for a different thread. Part of the issue is gamey compression. It doesn't make sense in Skyrim that you can walk from the tundra to the autumnal temperate forest in about 20 minutes, but you sure can.

 

[Vlaphor]

I hope your not saying you'll take more embarrassing Michael bay pandering camera zooms and shitty non characters only used to exploit DLC and audiences on the base level interested sexually in virtual pixels.

That is exactly what I'm saying, but I also believe it should be balanced so that it's not the only thing that comes out. There's no reason why nearly everyone shouldn't be able to get the game they want. I'm not saying I want a party of Cidneys, or that the game needs to be full of that particular character trope, but I don't believe that one Cidney ruins a game. As for the other characters, I can't really comment, as I really haven't been following "The World Of FFXV" or whatever they're calling their cross-media marketing strategy.

 

[NHarmonic.]

I'm seeing a lot of the usual stale and fallacious "counterarguments" used by people that think they're being original or even thought-provoking, so I'm going to be true to my word and repost this thing of beauty that Llyrwenne made. Hell, I think it could be added to the OP.

Amazing. We've been in need of this for a long time, tbh.

 

[PtM]

That is exactly what I'm saying, but I also believe it should be balanced so that it's not the only thing that comes out. There's no reason why nearly everyone shouldn't be able to get the game they want. I'm not saying I want a party of Cidneys, or that the game needs to be full of that particular character trope, but I don't believe that one Cidney ruins a game. As for the other characters, I can't really comment, as I really haven't been following "The World Of FFXV" or whatever they're calling their cross-media marketing strategy.

Saga Fabulous Cristallous.

 

[samred]

Cindy is the only notable female character in the two-hour opening chunk that Squeenix has let the press play at various events, and as a flat enabler of plot and a piece of eye candy, she's a bummer. This, plus the apparent lack of female characters in the playable cast, has me concerned about how the whole game will eventually play out.

The FF jrpg archetype, at the very least, leaves room for women to join the battle lines and be peers in the general story (though that doesn't always pan out). It's at least a surface level way to broaden the kinds of stories told. FFXV isn't doing that and doesn't appear to have a clever path around that to get some not-blah women in the quest. Gonna keep an eye on this.

Great thread.

 

[Zhutchka]

I think you have it backwards. Take your first sentence and flip it around.

Making a character for the purpose of a pandering role naturally leads to a gross, male-gaze oriented costume and character design. The animations they decide to make for her naturally pander to the male gaze. The camera angles they pick naturally pander to the male gaze.

The genesis of why Cidney is gross isn't in our heads; it's that we can see past the buffoonery and see the intent behind her character clear as day. It is broadcasted in her animations, in the camera angles, in her treatment by other characters, and in her visual appearance. Darth Vader is not wearing black and a crazy mask helmet because the audience created the idea that he is a villain. Darth Vader is wearing black because the director, writers, costume designers know this character is a villain and has a secret and therefore his visual look augments those aspects in his character's backstory and role.

I agree with this, but I don't think I have it backwards as I've not stated otherwise. I personally find it silly and unimportant rather than gross, but I don't think it has a place in a FF game as I have no problems understanding the reasons for why it's unappealing to a large number of people. And since FF historically has targeted/reached a wide audience, it should continue to be inclusive.

What is bothersome isn't that we are the ones taking the 'anyone who wears that is gross' idea to reality, but that male players think about women using the examples they see in their cultural products. "I see girls dressed like that everyday outside"—I live in NYC, a very diverse, populated city, and rest assured majority of 'girls' do not run around outside during summer dressed like Cidney. Male players rationalize and normalize their idea of what a good-looking woman should be based on unrealistic images, and moreover they reduce women to objects themselves.

This I disagree with. I live in Sweden (and have lived in other parts of Europe) and the majority of young women really do own a pair of jeans just as short as Cindey's and do wear them in the summers, pretty much everywhere - often to work, even. Unzipped top with bikini underneath is obviously not as common, but cleavage is widespread too in many environments. And it's absolutely not because they feel pressured to live up to some men's expectations of what a women should look like. Conversely, it's because it's in fashion and it appeals to them and most of all because they don't feel the pressure of society to dress or act modestly. Unfortunately the latter doesn't apply to everyone over here and is diminishing overall. And there is a really bad trend going on right now, which makes me more alert to the subject.

One of the appalling posts back when Cidney was first introduced, I won't forget, was a poster on GAF who quoted a picture of full-body Cidney and saying, callously, "That is the hottest thing I have ever seen."

"Thing."

Do you really think that there isn't some sort of poison here, after Gamergate?

I don't doubt it, but that's been pointed out by a number of people already. I detected a different kind of poison in the thread as well though, probed a little, and got "she looks desperate for attention" in return. Not to hang out that quote specifically as it was later rescinded - but there was definitely a current of that stuff, and I think it confirms that it was relevant to bring attention to.

The practicality argument would have less bite if 1) 15 did not bill itself as a "fantasy based on reality" and put high emphasis on photorealism in its world (animals, buildings, etc.) and 2) if Cid the proper had been dressed as absurdly. However, Cid is wearing a set of clothes that could pass for practical clothing. Cidney is not. What's the difference? Because Cid is the actual mechanic, while Cidney is the eye candy.

Why did Regis lose his designer suit in favour of a more regal attire? I don't think too much stock should be put into individual artistic choices. Cid is the exception - otherwise pretty much the whole cast is dressing concistently impractically, so I think bringing up Cindy in this context is irrelevant.

I don't doubt that Cindy was designed to appeal to a certain crowd, but I don't think designers should be afraid of using revealing outfits for non-pandering purposes, either. Even in games like FF. The case of Cindy does look hollow and pandering, though.

 

[Inuhanyou]

That is exactly what I'm saying, but I also believe it should be balanced so that it's not the only thing that comes out. There's no reason why nearly everyone shouldn't be able to get the game they want. I'm not saying I want a party of Cidneys, or that the game needs to be full of that particular character trope, but I don't believe that one Cidney ruins a game. As for the other characters, I can't really comment, as I really haven't been following "The World Of FFXV" or whatever they're calling their cross-media marketing strategy.

You really want a promotion of characters to be non characters?

Why!? Why don't you want a story filled with characters that actually matter? If you want a fan-service game, why can't you reserve that for fanservice games, and not a general story they expect people to take seriously?

Cindy's treatment leads to other female characters to be looked at with an even more critical eye, and after Luna's behavior in Kingsglaive, and what we've seen from other female characters in this game(aka zero), that's a huge problem!

We absolutely don't need a balance of sexual props and actual characters. We need a full slate of actual characters!

Its worse for FF15 than any game previously because there are barely any female characters, so they need decent representation, and Cindy, being like 1 out of 3 in the whole game(or 4 if we include Gentiana), that's definitely is an issue.

 

[PtM]

I don't doubt it, but that's been pointed out by a number of people already. I detected a different kind of poison in the thread as well though, probed a little, and got "she looks desperate for attention" in return. Not to hang out that quote specifically as it was later rescinded - but there was definitely a current of that stuff, and I think it confirms that it was relevant to bring attention to.

Yeah, just drag it through the whole town.

 

[Vlaphor]

You really want a promotion of characters to be non characters?

Why!? Why don't you want a story filled with characters that actually matter? If you want a fan-service game, why can't you reserve that for fanservice games, and not a general story they expect people to take seriously?

Cindy's treatment leads to other female characters to be looked at with an even more critical eye, and after Luna's behavior in Kingsglaive, and what we've seen from other female characters in this game(aka zero), that's a huge problem!

We absolutely don't need a balance of sexual props and actual characters. We need a full slate of actual characters!

I rarely ever go to games for their story, unless it's trying to be a serious one rooted in serious themes. I'll fully admit that fanservice would drag down something like Last of Us or The Walking Dead, but I don't personally see how one character drags down something as over the top and out-there as FFXV. As for the other characters, as I have said, I can't really say too much about them, and maybe that's not in keeping with the spirit of this thread, but I personally will have no problem enjoying Cidney's presence for what it is and still getting enjoyment out of the story they tell.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Spman2099]

Yes, SE are a bunch of biggots. In the world, there are only strong, powerful and virtuous women, any game that deviates from this true standard is clearly sexist, even if there is one strong powerful woman in it. No woman, like Cindy, would ever use her assets to seduce men. Luna, a character we know almost nothing about in the actual game, is clearly a misrepresentation of all women in the world.

Oh, and we have no black people, there is no gay dude, we still need that lesbian character, and we can't forget about our native american friends, and that other transsexual person too, until then SE is a bunch of no good sexist biggots. Man, I hate them so much, they are the true ailment that is bringing down our society with their backward views! They all should be, you know, like be jobless or something! They always in all of their games ever misrepresent women! Their portrayal of men is always adequate though.

That is a full-blown temper tantrum...

Man, everyone gets so defensive when any one aspect of a game is under criticism. There are still a lot of people, myself included, who are quite happy to admit that we are going off of a limited sample size. It is possible that there will be no problem with how Square presents women in FFXV. That being said, from what we have seen, it doesn't seem like they see much use for women outside of them being damsels or objects of sexual desire.

I will still be playing the game. I am still moderately excited for it. However, that doesn't mean that I am going to blindly defend every element of FFXV. If I see something that looks problematic I am going to talk about it.

 

[Mailbox]

Okay.... theres a specific line of thinking happening now that i cam't seem to agree with. The idea that just because a character's design is sexualized, pandering, and that the game treats it that way the character is therefore no longer a character and therefore an object. Sure, Cindy is obviously being objectified, but lets not act like she isn't a character. We know that she likes cars, that she doesn't give a shit about men's advances on her (note her reactions to gladio and propto's advances), that she is generous (especially since she takes pity on the main characters). She may very well be a flat, static character, but then again, i expect Cid to be too.

as for the fear of Luna being a damsel. I just wanna remind people that Garnet was also a damsel at one point in the game, and yet no one ever brings that up ever and instead focus on her character transformation

I guess my point is that we have seen in many FF's that characters whom are sexualized and yet end up being interesting or at least okay characters in their own right (i literally already made a list of characters who do that in previous pages that have been utterly ignored). I just honestly feel like many of us are pulling the trigger on how we feel about about aspects of the game as being indicative of the whole. I also think this will lead to weird confirmation biases where acts and events that are really no different from other FF titles in the past will be demonized beyond the scope of the infraction. I just fear that for many here FF15 will be solely hated due to Cindy and A potentially "needing to be saved"-sequence in Luna's story. And thats a damn shame.

 

[pashmilla]

I'm seeing a lot of the usual stale and fallacious "counterarguments" used by people that think they're being original or even thought-provoking, so I'm going to be true to my word and repost this thing of beauty that Llyrwenne made. Hell, I think it could be added to the OP.

Done!

 

[Inuhanyou]

Okay.... theres a specific line of thinking happening now that i cam't seem to agree with. The idea that just because a character's design is sexualized, pandering, and that the game treats it that way the character is therefore no longer a character and therefore an object. Sure, Cindy is obviously being objectified, but lets not act like she isn't a character.

"Just because the game treats the character like an object with no other discernible qualities doesn't mean they are objects!"

Oh. my. god.

 

[pashmilla]

Okay.... theres a specific line of thinking happening now that i cam't seem to agree with. The idea that just because a character's design is sexualized, pandering, and that the game treats it that way the character is therefore no longer a character and therefore an object.

I mean, it's not like we're talking about a real person here. If we were, then what you're saying would apply. No matter how much you objectify someone they remain an individual with thoughts and feelings. Cindy is a creation whose primary purpose is to sexually titillate the player. Anything else is secondary. Therein lies the issue. To quote Fury Road: WE ARE NOT THINGS.

 

[Mailbox]

"Just because the game treats the character like an object with no other discernible qualities doesn't mean they are objects!"

Oh. my. god.

Or, you know, you could read the rest of the post and not make sweeping hand-wavy statements that have nothing to actually do with the post I made.

Is Fran(FF12) and Kaine(Nier) just objects because they literally only wear negligee in their respective games? Objectification and literally "being nothing more than an object" are very different things. Characters can have personalities and whatnot beyond the design and camera invocation and to act like those personalities, hobbies, etc are entirely corrupt just because of those things is, I find, short sighted. It brings the idea of what it means to be a "good female character" entirely into the idea of clothing, which I find is incomplete in general. If Cindy had the concept art design on her instead of the one she has, I really wonder if anyone would be saying anything about her "character". We are literally going in circles about the costume, and the games relation to it. Both of which are problematic, bit if that was the end all be all for any character, many beloved FF characters would be in the ground never to be thought of again.

Its like looking at Miss Nurse from Animaniacs and only looking at her design and not the fact that she's a medical profession who is smart and capable. What I am saying is that there is, a lot of the time, more to a character than her costume and the game's relationship to that costume.

I literally talk about what "discernible qualities" she has in the part directly after you stopped. Please, do, read on!

I mean, it's not like we're talking about a real person here. If we were, then what you're saying would apply. No matter how much you objectify someone they remain an individual with thoughts and feelings. Cindy is a creation whose primary purpose is to sexually titillate the player. Anything else is secondary. Therein lies the issue. To quote Fury Road: WE ARE NOT THINGS.

I do personally find Cindy's outfit objectionable. That is not up for debate. But, may I ask 3 questions then:
1: At what point does proper depiction of women begin and end then. Its a bit hard to put into words, sorry, but lets say that Cindy's character model was used as a rando NPC, would you feel the same way? If the camera didn't focus on her ass and cleavage, would you still feel the same way. If she just so happened to wear what she wore. (This is a "what if" scenerio question, I am fully aware it is not the case as presented in the game.)

2: And more importantly isn't the idea of better representation of Woman in games also directly integrated with the way woman are (or should be) seen irl? To focus on clothing and to talk only about a sexualized character design and not the character beyond, doesn't that forward the idea that woman are only what they wear or how they are perceived by men? I'm not saying that Cindy's design can be hand-waved by this (it can't) but rather I am saying that there is more to the conversation that is being brushed off and I think that's not okay.

3: There seems to be a pervasive idea that "secondary", as you put it, is indicative of "nothing at all" or "not worth noting". Why is that? Why can't a character be beyond the sexualized design? I've personally seen "its only secondary" as a way to brush off good aspects of a character rather than actually instill conversation

 

[Rappy]

I'm seeing a lot of the usual stale and fallacious "counterarguments" used by people that think they're being original or even thought-provoking, so I'm going to be true to my word and repost this thing of beauty that Llyrwenne made. Hell, I think it could be added to the OP.

This post is also not being original or thought-provoking. This post is not adding anything to the discussion. This post being added to the OP is exactly what I've said here and other threads that these types of threads have many players on both sides of an argument not interested in actually having a meaningful discussion.

Cindy is a creation whose primary purpose is to sexually titillate the player. Anything else is secondary. Therein lies the issue. To quote Fury Road: WE ARE NOT THINGS.

Is this actually true and a stated fact? If so, then you have a point. I haven't looked to deeply into how these characters came to creation so please give me more information on this. Because to me, her primary purpose is to tow and fix your car, not that that makes her any better as a character.

 

[Mailbox]

Is this actually true and a stated fact? If so, then you have a point. I haven't looked to deeply into how these characters came to creation so please give me more information on this. Because to me, her primary purpose is to tow and fix your car, not that that makes her any better as a character.

Just to jump in prior to the inevitable posts:

People are gonna use the quote made by the Marketing Producer (who, for the record, probably had about as much creative sway as the fly in his sandwich), so keep that in mind when the obvious "woman being in a party and also not being sexualized doesn't make sense" quote gets thrown about.

 

[GhostTrick]

I think OP could've sum up the whole essay with the quote at the end from Tabata :"")
This quote right here is pure gold hahaha. I mean, it's like the lamest attempt to reverse a situation of "you dont know what you want".

But yeah, female representation seems to be kinda bad in FFXV. Now, I know that they were going for a buddy/road movie feeling. That explain the lack of female party members. It doesn't explain why female characters seems to be so lame. Especially Cindy.

But hey, you can also argue that the game might go for gender equality, since all the cast may end up being underwhelming :/

Versus XIII definitely seemed to handle the casting a lot better.

Nice write up OP though.

 

[YankeeDonB]

I think OP could've sum up the whole essay with the quote at the end from Tabata :"")
This quote right here is pure gold hahaha. I mean, it's like the lamest attempt to reverse a situation of "you dont know what you want".

But yeah, female representation seems to be kinda bad in FFXV. Now, I know that they were going for a buddy/road movie feeling. That explain the lack of female party members. It doesn't explain why female characters seems to be so lame. Especially Cindy.

But hey, you can also argue that the game might go for gender equality, since all the cast may end up being underwhelming :/

Versus XIII definitely seemed to handle the casting a lot better.

Nice write up OP though.

That quote is from Ofuji, Marketing Director, not Tabata. It's obviously a bizarre thing to say though, no question.

 

[GhostTrick]

That quote is from Ofuji, Marketing Director, not Tabata. It's obviously a bizarre thing to say though, no question.

Yeah, true. But as they're always together in ATR, I kinda forgot who said it first
But that was pure gold. Like, a failed attempt at that philosopher Raptor meme :")

 

[Jennipeg]

I do personally find Cindy's outfit objectionable. That is not up for debate. But, may I ask 3 questions then:
1: At what point does proper depiction of women begin and end then. Its a bit hard to put into words, sorry, but lets say that Cindy's character model was used as a rando NPC, would you feel the same way? If the camera didn't focus on her ass and cleavage, would you still feel the same way. If she just so happened to wear what she wore. (This is a "what if" scenerio question, I am fully aware it is not the case as presented in the game.)

2: And more importantly isn't the idea of better representation of Woman in games also directly integrated with the way woman are (or should be) seen irl? To focus on clothing and to talk only about a sexualized character design and not the character beyond, doesn't that forward the idea that woman are only what they wear or how they are perceived by men? I'm not saying that Cindy's design can be hand-waved by this (it can't) but rather I am saying that there is more to the conversation that is being brushed off and I think that's not okay.

3: There seems to be a pervasive idea that "secondary", as you put it, is indicative of "nothing at all" or "not worth noting". Why is that? Why can't a character be beyond the sexualized design? I've personally seen "its only secondary" as a way to brush off good aspects of a character rather than actually instill conversation

For me, Cindy is the perfect storm of bad design. If the camera angles were removed, her outfit would be eye roll inducing, and thats it. But the camera is there, which takes the character from eye rolling to borderline offensive. People are reacting directly to the way Cindy has been designed and marketed and presented in the game. Those things are not our decision, its theirs and plenty of people just don't like it.

You may find that short sighted but I for one am sick of having to look past hyper sexualised character designs for the personality underneath. It happens over and over, that we have to accept this representation in popular media. Why as a woman should I have to do the extra leg work and look past their blatant manipulative marketing choices? I'm just sick of it, I've been doing it for 20 years and i'm over it. I guess i'm just trying to say that it would be nice to see more female characters I can relate to, without having to compromise and ignore these issues.

Dev's can write great female characters, but if they treat her like Cindy (with camera angles, VR etc) then all that work is undermined by other motives, and therefore detracts from the character as a whole. Examples of female characters I like: Elena from Uncharted, Fem Shep, Ashe from FFXII, even with her micro mini skirt, Nico Collard from Broken Sword, they do exist I just wish there were more. I hope I have conveyed why I am frustrated, its tough to put into words without sounding like i'm on a feminist crusade lol, its just been years in the making and now I have had an unintentional rant. I don't have an issue with sexy characters, I like plenty of them, but Cindy is on another level.

 

[Mailbox]

For me, Cindy is the perfect storm of bad design. If the camera angles were removed, her outfit would be eye roll inducing, and thats it. But the camera is there, which takes the character from eye rolling to borderline offensive. People are reacting directly to the way Cindy has been designed and marketed and presented in the game. Those things are not our decision, its theirs and plenty of people just don't like it.

You may find that short sighted but I for one am sick of having to look past hyper sexualised character designs for the personality underneath. It happens over and over, that we have to accept this representation in popular media. Why as a woman should I have to do the extra leg work and look past their blatant manipulative marketing choices? I'm just sick of it, I've been doing it for 20 years and i'm over it. I guess i'm just trying to say that it would be nice to see more female characters I can relate to, without having to compromise and ignore these issues.

Dev's can write great female characters, but if they treat her like Cindy (with camera angles, VR etc) then all that work is undermined by other motives, and therefore detracts from the character as a whole. Examples of female characters I like: Elena from Uncharted, Fem Shep, Ashe from FFXII, even with her micro mini skirt, Nico Collard from Broken Sword, they do exist I just wish there were more. I hope I have conveyed why I am frustrated, its tough to put into words without sounding like i'm on a feminist crusade lol. I don't have an issue with sexy characters, I like plenty of them, but Cindy is on another level.

Thank you for giving a thoughtful and concise response. You're positions are well explained and I agree with you 100%. I for one, am also tired of hypersexualized characters in places where they don't belong (I watch a lot of anime, and my god that shit can get grating to the mind).

But within that, we have all kind of exhausted the conversation surrounding Cindy to the point where we have been cyclically saying the same stuff for years and its, frankly, gotten tiring. I decided to, then, try to talk about what can be good from her character (rather than her design) but people obviously don't give a shit. I'm obviously not asking you to "look past it" (I sure as hell can't) I'm just saying that we can talk about a lot more at this point but we just don't.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Yeah, true. But as they're always together in ATR, I kinda forgot who said it first
But that was pure gold. Like, a failed attempt at that philosopher Raptor meme :")

Tabata was sitting right next to him when he said it anyway. I thought I saw a flash of "huh, not sure we want to go that way" in Tabata's eyes, but I might have been projecting, and he didn't outright refute the statement.

 

[Vlaphor]

I hope I have conveyed why I am frustrated, its tough to put into words without sounding like i'm on a feminist crusade lol, its just been years in the making and now I have had an unintentional rant. I don't have an issue with sexy characters, I like plenty of them, but Cindy is on another level.

Then sound like you're on one. Nobody should have to feel bad for wanting change or liking what they like, and if people give trouble for being on a crusade, then tell them to go fuck themselves.

My only caveat to what you're saying is that I believe "bad" characters can coexist alongside good ones as well. I'm not suggesting that there is any greater purpose behind Cidney, just that IMO, one character that some people may dislike does not condemn an entire game.

 

[Rappy]

For me, Cindy is the perfect storm of bad design. If the camera angles were removed, her outfit would be eye roll inducing, and thats it. But the camera is there, which takes the character from eye rolling to borderline offensive. People are reacting directly to the way Cindy has been designed and marketed and presented in the game. Those things are not our decision, its theirs and plenty of people just don't like it.

Are you talking about the player controlled camera or the cutscene camera? I just tried to find every footage of Cindy and I just don't see it. People keep bringing it up, but those camera angles do not seem worse than what they do to other characters, it's only the outfit that makes things seem much worse. The poses outside of cutscenes and showing where the player looks while showing off the VR are legitimate points though.

 

[Mailbox]

Are you talking about the player controlled camera or the cutscene camera? I just tried to find every footage of Cindy and I just don't see it. People keep bringing it up, but those camera angles do not seem worse than what they do to other characters, it's only the outfit that makes things seem much worse. The poses outside of cutscenes and showing where the player looks while showing off the VR are legitimate points though.

I personally have issue with *some* cutscene stuff. But you're not completely wrong a lot of infractions are definitely with player controlled behavior coupled with some of her animations (like the leaning to the car w/ the tan lines on her ass gif).

 

[Jennipeg]

Thank you for giving a thoughtful and concise response. You're positions are well explained and I agree with you 100%. I for one, am also tired of hypersexualized characters in places where they don't belong (I watch a lot of anime, and my god that shit can get grating to the mind).

But within that, we have all kind of exhausted the conversation surrounding Cindy to the point where we have been cyclically saying the same stuff for years and its, frankly, gotten tiring. I decided to, then, try to talk about what can be good from her character (rather than her design) but people obviously don't give a shit. I'm obviously not asking you to "look past it" (I sure as hell can't) I'm just saying that we can talk about a lot more at this point but we just don't.

Your welcome Yeah I see your point, I think Cindy is being used as a starting point for a much larger conversation. She is a contemporary example of the issues within the industry, so people will latch on to that to demonstrate their points. I fully expect to come out of FFXV thinking 'after all that, Cindy was alright, but fuck that camera'.

I don't think people will be willing to let it go, because that is once again accepting a situation that some of us are tired of. Which as you say, is quite tiring in itself lol. I don't think the conversation will alter until after the game is out, at which point we will have a better idea of her. Its a shame that she has been used in marketing in this way, it really makes it difficult to accept her actual role in the game outside of the obvious.

 

[Rappy]

I personally have issue with *some* cutscene stuff. But you're not completely wrong a lot of infractions are definitely with player controlled behavior coupled with some of her animations (like the leaning to the car w/ the tan lines on her ass gif).

I'm assuming you have an issue with the screen you posted. Isn't this only a problem because of her outfit? Or is it the fact that they have the camera focused on her in cutscenes involving her the problem? During Cid's introduction into the scene, if it were instead Cidney walking in and introduced like that, would people have had a problem with that scene? (I'm thinking yes)

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Yes, SE are a bunch of biggots. In the world, there are only strong, powerful and virtuous women, any game that deviates from this true standard is clearly sexist, even if there is one strong powerful woman in it. No woman, like Cindy, would ever use her assets to seduce men. Luna, a character we know almost nothing about in the actual game, is clearly a misrepresentation of all women in the world.

Oh, and we have no black people, there is no gay dude, we still need that lesbian character, and we can't forget about our native american friends, and that other transsexual person too, until then SE is a bunch of no good sexist biggots. Man, I hate them so much, they are the true ailment that is bringing down our society with their backward views! They all should be, you know, like be jobless or something! They always in all of their games ever misrepresent women! Their portrayal of men is always adequate though.

oh dear

 

[.JayZii]

oh dear

Let's just leave that on the last page, shall we?

 

[Mailbox]

I'm assuming you have an issue with the screen you posted. Isn't this only a problem because of her outfit? Or is it the fact that they have the camera focused on her in cutscenes involving her the problem? During Cid's introduction into the scene, if it were instead Cidney walking in and introduced like that, would people have had a problem with that scene? (I'm thinking yes)

Ehh... its more about framing and shot composition than it is her outfit in that shot. Theres a frame around the main characters focusing on cidney, the camera is centered on her chest, and her costume in turn also has a frame also directing to her cleavage. Though now that I look through footage you aren't wrong in stating that its more rare an occurrence in cutscenes than we may assume :S idk

 

[Via Purifico]

I don't mean to be dismissive at all but I don't see that much thought placed on Cindy as far as personality goes. I highly doubt she will pull a Tifa, fanservice design but has a personality that makes you forget about the former. Even in the recent trailer the actual Cid has more meaningful things to say in a clip where he talks about the war.


People are annoyed because she's the first female you run into in the game after copious amounts of promotion on the male characters and their story.
And when you see her that is the design with tan lines to boot and gets hit on.

Sure she ignores it but it's still there.


I am more than willing to see what else she offers as a character but I just get the impression she gives the bare minimum.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I personally have issue with *some* cutscene stuff. But you're not completely wrong a lot of infractions are definitely with player controlled behavior coupled with some of her animations (like the leaning to the car w/ the tan lines on her ass gif).

The very first showing of cindy is panning up her legs with a view of her ass, then finally panning up to reveal her going to the other cast members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn5XZCpdAIU

3:10, why can't they just have her walk over to them like a normal person?

 

[Mcdohl]

SE be like

From Mobius FF.

Fun fact: This game was a matter of controversy because the male character was too sexy.

Also, the game is too conscious about its representation of some of its characters designs:

He's referring to this fairy, who says its ok because only you can see her:

 

[Rappy]

Ehh... its more about framing and shot composition than it is her outfit in that shot. Theres a frame around the main characters focusing on cidney, the camera is centered on her chest, and her costume in turn also has a frame also directing to her cleavage. Though now that I look through footage you aren't wrong in stating that its more rare an occurrence in cutscenes than we may assume :S idk

But my point is if she didn't have that outfit or if it were say, Iris, in that scene would it actually be a problem?

The very first showing of cindy is panning up her legs with a view of her ass, then finally panning up to reveal her going to the other cast members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn5XZCpdAIU

3:10, why can't they just have her walk over to them like a normal person?

Again, would this actually be an issue if it weren't for her outfit? How is that camera pan any worse than this?

 

[Necromanti]

The very first showing of cindy is panning up her legs with a view of her ass, then finally panning up to reveal her going to the other cast members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn5XZCpdAIU

3:10, why can't they just have her walk over to them like a normal person?

I had no idea her thong was visible, too.

 

[Via Purifico]

Again, would this actually be an issue if it weren't for her outfit? How is that camera pan any worse than this?

I highly doubt that pan is trying to accentuate anything and more of a way to shoot a scene.