Idk what it's like at this very moment but when I played rewards (not specific hats) dropped far more often then in overwatch. FAAAAAAAAAAAR more often. I'm 16 hours in without one new skin to show for it unless you count pallet swaps of characters I almost never play. I guarantee you any other comparable game has better rewards than what I've experienced in overwatch. COD, BF, Battlefront (yes even battlefront), halo, destiny, doom, and TF all give out rewards far faster and usually better as well. The only exception I can think of is Titanfall. And that game didn't have skins if I recall. And it was pounded for its lack of content and rightfully so who the same defense force arguments I see here minus the free future content wrinkle.
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Overwatch marks a new low in Unlocking and Microtransaction systems that I'm aware of
- Thread starter Saty
- Start date
Idk what it's like at this very moment but when I played rewards (not specific hats) dropped far more often then in overwatch. FAAAAAAAAAAAR more often. I'm 16 hours in without one new skin to show for it unless you count pallet swaps of characters I almost never play. I guarantee you any other comparable game has better rewards than what I've experienced in overwatch. COD, BF, Battlefront (yes even battlefront), halo, destiny, doom, and TF all give out rewards far faster and usually better as well. The only exception I can think of is Titanfall. And that game didn't have skins if I recall. And it was pounded for its lack of content and rightfully so who the same defense force arguments I see here minus the free future content wrinkle.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Dude, that's the heart of Hanzo. HMMMMMmmmm
"unless you count pallet swaps"
lol wut, of course you do
Frozenprince
Banned
P much.
are you fucking kidding me? Blizzard just released a patch for Diablo 2 WHICH IS A 16 YEAR OLD GAME! They have released new heroes for HOTS at a constant clip. Patches for War3. New zones for D3.. 2 expansions and an adventure per year for HS. And none of this obviously touches WoW.
I mean you are grasping here. The one company FAMOUS for their games being played for almost TWO DECADES past release and still supporting it.. and you are concern trolling for them supporting their newly released critical and commercial darling?
Ricerocket
Member
OMG you have that spray? fuck this game, I am done.
Herbspiceguy
Member
I'm fine with microtransactions, but at least allow ppl to buy specific skins instead of just loot crates.
Frozenprince
Banned
So. You're getting content, just for characters you don't play.
So... play those characters then.
I'm not talking about this very moment, I'm talking actual math here. TF2 gives you a drop on average every 50 minutes, which is 90% likely to be a gun. You are limited to 10 hours of 'drop time' per week. So you're likely to get 12 items per week, and they're likely to ALL be gameplay affecting items, maybe 1-2 hats. This isn't supposition, this is how the loot system you're claiming is 'better' actually fucking works. Unless you're counting crates, which drop all the time, are you? Those cost 2.50 to open and are RNG bullshit of the worst degree since mostly they hold shit you REALLY don't want, only one bullshit I might add as opposed to Overwatch's 4 for a dollar, and also have a chance at actual items you cannot get as drops, because they REALLY want you to spend that 2.50 (or trade someone that did).
Overwatch takes an hour, maybe an hour fifteen, to get a loot box, which has four things in it which are all cosmetic. Yeah, some of them might suck, guess what it sucked when I got my 50th Crit-a-cola in TF2 as well, so that's kind of irrelevant.
Warnen
Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
Really was kinda disappointed at the game at 1st. I got it because of all the short movies and none of that was in the game. Then notice not much in terms of maps and modes. On top of that it has MTs. Then I played for nearly 2 days straight with so friends and came around on it.
Still think it's priced to high on consoles, should be $40 max and the extra should just come with it if you preordered. But when I probably will spend $100 on boxes before then end of the month guess that doesn't mean much. I tend to do that on games I like (destiny is the other big offender, had get all them sparrows and taken armor...).
Seriously everything but the legendary skins are easy to unlock with money, and come easy in boxes regardless.
And the legendary skins wouldn't have existed if there wasn't a paid incentive to get them.
The real problem I see is that Blizzard doesn't straight up sell you the skins you want with real money, nor do they just sell you the credits. They keep a system of uncertainty in place. Which has some fucked up implications!
And the legendary skins wouldn't have existed if there wasn't a paid incentive to get them.
The real problem I see is that Blizzard doesn't straight up sell you the skins you want with real money, nor do they just sell you the credits. They keep a system of uncertainty in place. Which has some fucked up implications!
orthodoxy1095
Banned
And I'd like to see how the people whining about this stuff would react if games cost what they should actually cost.
consoles have to take into account the ~$12-15 manufacturer license (not to mention a lower margin given the higher prominence of retail sales for console games). had they released the standard game for consoles at $40, they'd lose over half on average of each sale to licensing and retail. it does suck.. but that's the nature of consoles.. blizz can't work around that.
Like I enjoy the idea of a game selling aesthetical content and pump out new weapons/heroes/maps for free that keeps a game fresh and the community going.
But when you lock all that stuff behind what amounts to "lite-gambling" or chance mechanics (with the option to buy more chances), now it feels like that if that game pumps out free important content because of post game purchasing, it's now off the backs of people with who are "bad gamblers" aka people with a genetic disposition that leaves them vulnerable to exploitation.
Which is fucked up!
Then again, as Sonic says:
But when you lock all that stuff behind what amounts to "lite-gambling" or chance mechanics (with the option to buy more chances), now it feels like that if that game pumps out free important content because of post game purchasing, it's now off the backs of people with who are "bad gamblers" aka people with a genetic disposition that leaves them vulnerable to exploitation.
Which is fucked up!
Then again, as Sonic says:
Warnen
Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
I covered this before. If you are genuinely concerned for whales (which apparently I turned into today on this damn game).. don't be. We have no problem spending money on games we like. In that sense it's actually different from real gambling.. where you don't get anything.. unless you are ridiculously lucky. Here you always get something for your purchase, and are keeping a game running that you greatly enjoy. win-win (well.. or win - 4 grays and a blue)
Then a compromise, 20 free boxes to console playerCost them nothing
can't give the console gamers anything or.. you'd have PC gamers cry.
With that being said, HS was really generous with packs at start. I mean it had to be, but yeah.. there's no reason they couldn't have tossed us like 10 or 20 crates between completing tutorials, playing a quick match for the first time, etc.I'm alright with the idea of selling a $1000 skin to whales. It's up front: Give us this exact money, we give you this exact skin.
I'm not alright when there is NO OTHER OPTION than partaking in chance mechanics. You can buy content with credit, but you can't buy credit - you can only get credit by chance. The only thing you can spend money on is more chances.
There's selling $40k bourbon to the bourgeois, and then there's video poker.
No one is saying this. The vast majority of people aren't sitting here fuming about a single fucking skin or something. Shitposts like this and the jealousy one are amazing.
that alone definitely helps in giving Hanzo a solid characterization imo.
you can tell he's a solitary and deeply emotional type of ryuu ga waga teki wo kurau guy from that "Hm.."
Warnen
Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
can't give the console gamers anything or.. you'd have PC gamers cry.
Yeah but they go a give console gamers stuff they need a pc for (iirc you get pets for wow and other stuff for pc games). Anyways you look at it console gamers got a raw deal here. Pay more for a game, get exclusives for pc games, all skins and in game stuff not special because everyone has it.
Great game, shady dealing.
Like I enjoy the idea of a game selling aesthetical content and pump out new weapons/heroes/maps for free that keeps a game fresh and the community going.
But when you lock all that stuff behind what amounts to "lite-gambling" or chance mechanics (with the option to buy more chances), now it feels like that if that game pumps out free important content because of post game purchasing, it's now off the backs of people with who are "bad gamblers" aka people with a genetic disposition that leaves them vulnerable to exploitation.
Which is fucked up!
Then again, as Sonic says:
If only it were 'locked' behind a real money paywall you might have a point. But it's not. If you don't want to gamble, don't buy it, you get to open boxes anyway.
Frozenprince
Banned
And it's not gambling. The odds of winning SOMETHING are 100%, it might not be the exact thing you want, but it's not gambling when there is no chance of not winning.
this i kind of agree with. it would obviously be better if they let you buy the skins you want or just credits.
it's just such a small quibble to me when the game itself is so good.
Acerac
Banned
If there was just one Madden that I could buy and updated yearly I would be entirely ok with paid alternate jerseys. I've not purchased a Madden in over a decade, I'd want to get one if they changed to that model.
People with actual knowledge of the wide range of microtransactions systems out there know that Overwatch's system is pretty generous. The very fact that purchases don't affect the mechanics already puts Overwatch heads and shoulders above most games out there.
Some people just seem to foam at the mouth when confronted by any form of microtransactions at all. Sorry, but there's nothing to be gained from ignoring the financial reality of modern game development. It'd be nice if we could rewind time to the 90s and 00s but we can't.
Get over it.
Pellegri Testament
Member
Are you really comparing Overwatch to a yearly sports title? I didn't know we were lined up to get a 2017, 2018, 2019 or even 2020 edition of Overwatch. Sorry you seem to believe getting the same damn full priced game year after year (only prettier and with a roster update) is a better business model than fucking cosmetic rng boxes (that you don't even have to pay for to get) that you get in a game that will receive free updates for longer than EA can hold any of it's companies that it takes over.
nah.. because the rate at which you get currency from the boxes is pretty sound. I've opened 150 boxes so far (not counting leveling) and have received ~1900 credits per 50. and that rate has increased a bit as I've been unlocking content. My last bundle was something a little over >2000.
So basically relatively early on you get two guaranteed legendary skins for $40 (when you buy a bundle of 50), with a chance to also get those skins from the boxes themselves.
this is similar to Hearthstone where you can get enough dust (once you have a collection) from a $50 bundle for two legendaries.. and can get enough dust for a golden legendary for about $90.
People call it gambling.. but it't not really.. it's just a different purchase mechanic. But yeah.. we already know based on odds that a specific legendary skin will cost you ~$20 by the time you are 50-100 boxes into the game.
It's not like things were better in the past though. Online multiplayer games, with shooters being one of the worst offenders, were plagued by map packs and other forced DLC in the 00's that split or killed communities. Anything that side steps that problem while still finding funding for future content is great from my perspective.
You already can with in game gold
Also in case people aren't aware, hearthstone has a "pity timer" wher if you open ~30-40 packs and don't get a legendary, you are guaranteed to get one. The exact number changes with each new expansion but people always figure it out.
I think people have different ideas about what is being argued here.
There's
A.) Content that gamers feel should be entitled to for their $40 purchase. I don't want to argue about this because arguing about gamer entitlement is as fun as drowning in a septic tank.
and then there's
B.) Blizzard's deliberate decisions in how their micro transaction market is designed and whether or not it's ethical. And Blizzard is being deliberate in their decisions. They're fucking Blizzard, and Overwatch is a game of very deliberate design decisions.
Here's my perspective based on looking at Blizzard and the trends of the industry in general: I'm pretty positive that if Blizzard had no plans to create a post-release marketplace to further increase their profits from the game, we wouldn't have all the legendary skins that are in the game. It's a whole lot of resources for what would amount to as flair. (They are not simple texture changes but whole new models, some coming with unique effects or new lines of dialogue.)
But they're not made to be sold in a shop either. Otherwise they would be sold in the shop. Instead this content, which there is a ton of (around a hundred legendary skins were made, right?) has been made to increase the value of the real commodity being sold: loot crates. A game of chance.
"Well, you don't have to buy crates." Right, you don't, but a lot of people sure want to. And those that won't still value them. Because Blizzard designed it that way. And the fact that it's pretty damn close to gambling is pretty shitty.
"Well I don't care about the crates or buying them!"
Ever hear how certain fishing nets are designed to only catch a certain type of fish, and all others either bounce off or swim through the net? Doesn't work on you, that's fine, but it's going to work on a lot of people. Hell, it is working on a lot of people.
There's
A.) Content that gamers feel should be entitled to for their $40 purchase. I don't want to argue about this because arguing about gamer entitlement is as fun as drowning in a septic tank.
and then there's
B.) Blizzard's deliberate decisions in how their micro transaction market is designed and whether or not it's ethical. And Blizzard is being deliberate in their decisions. They're fucking Blizzard, and Overwatch is a game of very deliberate design decisions.
Here's my perspective based on looking at Blizzard and the trends of the industry in general: I'm pretty positive that if Blizzard had no plans to create a post-release marketplace to further increase their profits from the game, we wouldn't have all the legendary skins that are in the game. It's a whole lot of resources for what would amount to as flair. (They are not simple texture changes but whole new models, some coming with unique effects or new lines of dialogue.)
But they're not made to be sold in a shop either. Otherwise they would be sold in the shop. Instead this content, which there is a ton of (around a hundred legendary skins were made, right?) has been made to increase the value of the real commodity being sold: loot crates. A game of chance.
"Well, you don't have to buy crates." Right, you don't, but a lot of people sure want to. And those that won't still value them. Because Blizzard designed it that way. And the fact that it's pretty damn close to gambling is pretty shitty.
But it's not a pay mechanic. It's not a weird workaround, or a lazy pay mechanic. They forgone having a shop for skins and instead chose to lock everything behind a game of chance and are selling you additional tickets to that game. What do game of chances have the reputation of doing with certain folk with a genetic exploitable behavior? This is how Blizzard is planning on funding future content.
"Well I don't care about the crates or buying them!"
Ever hear how certain fishing nets are designed to only catch a certain type of fish, and all others either bounce off or swim through the net? Doesn't work on you, that's fine, but it's going to work on a lot of people. Hell, it is working on a lot of people.
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
Im glad it is working on a lot of people, they are paying for my new maps and characters.
I dont consider it insidious or unethical. It is skins at the end of the day.Edit: thought thus was the OT for Overwatch
Actually hats are a super rare drop, you could easily go 6 months to a year between getting hat drops. Most hats are either crafted, bought in the store or unboxed from crates.
There are other way to get weapons in TF2 besides the drop system, you can trade, craft or buy them. You also get the first set of weapons through achievements and can rent one item at a time from the store. It's not super hard to get a weapon you want.
Honestly though it's not a perfect system by any means (though it's still much more fair then most other F2P games) but it was the first of it's kind for Valve and as far as I know one of the first of this kind for a non MMO. I imagine if Valve could go back in time they would handle weapons differently since the weapons can be crafted into metal which is a currency that is constantly added for free to the economy, and having people constantly getting free currency isn't good for an economy. The problem is that nearly every weapon model since the first set of weapons were community created so they have to sell them in the store and can't just only give them away for free since the store sales are the way those community creators get paid.
Honestly I do think it would be bad to give new players all the weapons all at once since it would be pretty overwhelmingly. It probably would of been better for Valve to create all weapon models themselves and give them away for free in some way (either through achievements or playtime) and just have the reskins, stat tracking weapons and cosmetic items in crates or sold in the store. Base hats would probably be worth more now if weapon drops and metal didn't exist. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
Overwatch does have a great system though, probably better then TF2 though I do think it would be good if Blizzard let people trade and sell their skins like you can with Valve games.
Chairmanchuck
Member
People in this thread believe that Blizzard, the kings of content that comes out decades after release, will drop support in 1 year?
To be fair, those who don't have Overwatch still need to occupy their time somehow.
Gravy Boat
Member
I played Modern Warfare 2 and Dota 2 for well over 600 hours each and didn't unlock all the cosmetics in those either. Still both great games.
Wait a second, are people complaining about the microtransactions in this thread the same people still carrying the "this game should have been f2p" torch??? Have they even played the game???
Blizzard are aces when it comes to post launch support, there is no arguing this.
Lol.
This is gambling, wether you want to believe it or not, it's gamblng.
I wish I won every time I gambled in real life too. Would have made my trip to Vegas much more pleasant. Would have been cool to get a free spin on the slots every hour on the house too!
You should probably go look at a dictionary and find the many definitions of gambling.
level1
Member
The chance of you getting items in a loot box is 100%. Therefore, it's not gambling.
And if you ever get a duplicate it gives you a bit of extra cash to speed up saving for straight up buying the exact thing you want.
If you could buy a $5 ticket that gives you two possible outcomes:
A 99% chance to win $1, and a 1% chance to win $10.
The chance of you "winning money" is 100%. Is this gambling?
Well I mean, your $5 could turn into $1, making it a gamble... When I get a loot box in Overwatch my zero investment turns into free items... How is this comparable?
I was addressing more the statement that "You getting stuff 100% of the time makes it not a gamble".
That gamble doesn't have to have "You don't win anything" as a requirement for it to be a gamble. Simply that there are multiple outcomes, and some are preferable to others.
This is also more about people spending money for the loot boxes, not just getting them via playing. In which case that's not a "zero investment".
Like don't get me wrong, I think Overwatch's system is one of the least invasive/best compromises we're going to get when it comes to microtransactions. I just wish people trying to defend it put more than 5 seconds into arguing it/would understand what the definition of gamble means.
Eh, I mean almost anything can be called a gamble if you abstract it out far enough. His point still remains.
Over a pack of 50 boxes you are extremely likely to get
2 random legendary skins
Enough currency to buy around two more legendary skins
Various other cosmetics
So sure, abstracted out you are "gambling" for that legendary skin you want.. But there are other things in the boxes that you can use, and a fail safe distribution of currency allowing you to buy what you specifically want.
It's like people calling Fortune Cards in Marvel Heroes gambling.. You're only "gambling" that you can get the costume you want for less than 95 cards (typically ~$70). Because it's not a true gamble in that you know once you've acquired 95 cards you can just buy the costume.
Same thing here. The gamble is in how much you have to pay for the legendary skin. But the probability seems to come close to capping (near 100%) at about $20. The only gamble is if you can get it for cheaper than that.
Edit - I'd also point out that people claiming blizz is doing this to increase their revenue from MTAs are a bit off on the situation. If Blizz did like Marvel Heroes for example, a costume would cost $xx. Period. There might be sales or bundles, but the normal price is still $xx. Here Blizz is setting the MAX price of a costume at $xx, and at the same time made the lowest price you can get it for free. If you absolutely want that skin it will cost you at most $xx in boxes. However with Blizz's distribution, you CAN get it for cheaper. Spirit of 76 I got out of a leveling box (for reference I find this to be the best skin in the game and figured it being an eventual purchase). If Blizz didn't do boxes, the costume would just cost you $xx and you'd have likely no way to get it for free. Look at almost all other games out there that have skins for direct sale, and the one thing almost all have in common is no chance to get those skins for free on a regular basis. That's the alternative.