level1
Member
Explain to me which dictionary tells you that it's still gambling if you always win.
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Overwatch marks a new low in Unlocking and Microtransaction systems that I'm aware of
- Thread starter Saty
- Start date
Explain to me which dictionary tells you that it's still gambling if you always win.
Do all the items drop on a completely even chance, or are rarer items weighted to drop less?
If so, then you are taking a risk (if you bought a box, not if you received one for free playing), hoping for a positive outcome. Winning the lower prizes/duplicates is the less positive outcome. Making it a gamble.
This isn't that hard to grasp. And it's also not really making a statement on the justification for the system being there. Merely that if you buy a loot box, you are gambling. That's it.
Like if there was no other method of getting loot crates than just playing the game, then none of this would matter. It's just the RNG grind being the RNG grind. It becomes gambling the moment money (or any sense of risk) is involved. The fact that you can abstract out "oh but we're not actually winning anything of real value/there is no money prizes/it's all digital" doesn't stop the process from being gambling, and designed to hit the same addiction points that allows casinos to exist. It's deliberate, and we can sit here and debate the merits of it being here (and I'm totally cool with it existing), but I'm not accepting any argument of "it's not gambling". Try harder than that.
You can craft shit yes, but since it takes a rate of what...12:1 or some shit to get another weapon you specifically want? You're looking at dropping your entire week's worth of drops just to get something you don't already have. And hats require insane amounts of metal unless they've changed it. I think TF2s system worked very well when there were significantly less items in the game, but anyone pretending hats weren't stupid rare even back before the game was F2P is kidding themselves, I was happy to have like 2 hats back then. Crafting is roughly analagous to getting coins in Overwatch to buy what you want, except that the rate of acquisition is significantly slower and the cost for the actual cosmetic drops is significantly higher. MOST of yourdrops by a huge margin are for weapons you actually get player power from (flexibility is power, I don't give a shit if the basic weapon in a slot is the 'preferred choice' for pros or whatever else).
Overwatch's is not 'probably' better than TF2, it's markedly and provably better through direct analogues like the crafting system and drop rates. And it should be, one is F2P and one is not, but when people bring it up (I know you're not, others I originally responded to) as a fair system and claim Overwatch is bunk, they need to be shown what's so fucked about that notion.
Yep, people can't seem to see that. There's 0 chance of you spending 100 bucks and not getting what you want, so it's not gambling. 20 bucks for enough coins to buy EXACTLY what you want sounds right to me, and while that sounds expensive in terms of $ per skin taken on its own, it's also going to net you at least one of another legendary skin, included within ~100 other items of random quality.
Storm Chamber
Banned
Gonna have to wait a few months before you go at the current gaming gloryhole.
$20 isn't guaranteed to get you 1000 credits nor does it guarantee you a legendary. You can go look for "I open "X" loot crates" on youtube and see the results for yourself. (my very first first result shows a guy getting 675 credits at the 25th box mark) or read the OT thread and see how many people got their first legendary by crate 25+. But it however tricked you into thinking that and now you are promoting loot crates by saying what you think is certain despite it not being certain. Game of chances everybody!
Got any tips for people betting on the roulette wheel? Where is the luckiest slot machine in the bar?
edit: also look in any overwatch thread and you see a lot of people begging others to talk them out of spending $20~40 on loot crates. does this seem like the signs of a ethical micro transaction system?
I've opened 150 boxes. The first 50 was ~1800 credits. Second 50 was ~2000 credits. Final 50 was over 2000. I believe like 2100. You get 20% value (I think that's it) from dupes. So if you get a dupe intro you should get 50 credits from it (equal to a blue credit box). A dupe legendary I believe is 250 credits.
So once you have accumulated around 50+ boxes through credit chests and dupes it comes out to about 2000 credits per 50 boxes, or $20 per 1000. But yes obviously one off bad RNG on top of not having much unlocked will drive that cost way higher.
The way the do boxes in this game appears to be identical to how they do packs of cards in Hearthstone. Hearthstone once you've collected a good chunk of an expansion, your pretty much guaranteed enough dust for a legendary with 40 packs. Not surprised they stuck with that model here.
meanspartan
Member
Yes it is debatable, unless you are counting the campaign, which is fair I suppose. But multi vs. multi, I'd say Overwatch is the more fleshed out experience at launch.
Your claim of Blizzard dropping support is laughable. Yes, it is true we don't know their post-launch plans and they could in theory not do anything at all. But that would go against 20+ years of Blizzard history.
Even WoW, where you have to buy expansions, allowed people without the expansions to get a lot of the perks (pet battles, new leveling, etc.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT9SKcXfFEQ
This guy got 470 credits from 24 loot crates.
How certain are you now TheYanger?
This guy got 470 credits from 24 loot crates.
How certain are you now TheYanger?
yes if you spend $120 on loot crates you will get more credits out of dupes
Why did I watch some mouthbreather complain every single time he got a skin that wasn't a remodel?
Has never ever played a game with different colors for characters in it?
Or if you hold off on buying loot crates until you are level 50 or so. (Or buy them in 50, not 20)
I mean this is pretty common sense shit.. Buying packs of a collectible you will get more dupes the more you buy. In a system with fail safes, that means you will accumulate more fail safe currency the more dupes you have.
Note that I said "it comes out to about $20 per 1000", not "it's $20 per 1000". I could buy 2 packs at a time for like $3 (I think) and $20 doing that isn't going to get me 1000 credits.
I've bought 3 bundles of 50. I have friends who have purchased bundles of 50. You can post all the YouTube anecdotal proofs you like, but based on Blizz's setup with Hearthstone and based on what I've personally witnessed out of around fifteen 50 pack bundles opened, you get a little under 2000 with no collection, and once you have the start of a collection it seems to be a pretty solid ~2000 per 50 bundle. Which costs $40.
You'd think Blizzard is holding a gun to OPs head the way they go on about being 'forced' to buy in to these microtransactions. I'll say the same thing to them as I do anyone who complains about them; don't like them, don't buy them. Simple as that. They're there as an option for the player. No-one is forcing you to buy them.
There's no problem with the microtransactions of the game.
The core mechanics are not affected. I'm certainly not playing this game for the voice lines.
The game will feature all future maps and heroes for free. Would you like that to be paid DLC and these voicelines free?
Blizzard needs have some source of continued income for the future support. If these voice packs or spray paints or whatever means continued support for the game in the form of new heroes / maps / game modes, so be it.
The core mechanics are not affected. I'm certainly not playing this game for the voice lines.
The game will feature all future maps and heroes for free. Would you like that to be paid DLC and these voicelines free?
Blizzard needs have some source of continued income for the future support. If these voice packs or spray paints or whatever means continued support for the game in the form of new heroes / maps / game modes, so be it.
But not buying into them doesn't make them more or less ethical. Back to the fishing net metaphor. Because you can "swim through the net" doesn't mean it's not catching others who are more genetically vulnerable to exploitation.
At rank 50 it's still not certain that you will make that credit through duplicates, you have only increased the likelihood but not the guarantee. Trying to come up with silly ways of "bypassing" the chance mechanics only points out the absurdity of what Blizzard implemented.
I didn't talk about being forced to buy. I talked about taking content which i find valuable and should be available out of the box and sectioning it off to a stupid random unlock system and later on to drive microtransaction. And of course they are pushing people to use microtransactions because it's something that has value and something that you can't choose to unlock or to strive for. You buy or recieve boxes upon boxes to open in hope they contain what you want or in hope to get enough in-game credits to buy them directly.
Without real-money MTAs you have poorly designed unlock system that takes valuable content and taking away the player's control in unlocking what he wants.
With MTAs, the amount of control the player has is buying more and more crates to eventually get the piece of valuable content. The once 'just' poor bad design decision is a product of sinister greed.
I'm not sure how me deciding to myself not to buy that game or another is going to help in trying to resist future games locking more and more meaningful content.
Without real-money MTAs you have poorly designed unlock system that takes valuable content and taking away the player's control in unlocking what he wants.
With MTAs, the amount of control the player has is buying more and more crates to eventually get the piece of valuable content. The once 'just' poor bad design decision is a product of sinister greed.
I'm not sure how me deciding to myself not to buy that game or another is going to help in trying to resist future games locking more and more meaningful content.
Wok
Member
As someone prone to gambling addiction, which I discovered and first experienced with Dota2 chests, I have to say that I am very wary of all kinds of gambling and hidden costs in games nowadays. I am with you on this matter.
All in all, I have about 4k hours spent in Dota2 and I have spent around 1k dollars in 3 years, which is pretty scary. Most money was spent on chest-opening-kind of activities.
partyphone
Banned
you're overvaluing superficial content that has no impact on gameplay
This is, what quite literally all MP games in the last ten years have been doing. Games with and without MTA's.
How are they pushing people to use MTs? I honestly didn't even notice it had them until yesterday they are that unobtrusive
Warnen
Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
Right up with the you shouldn't feel that way argument, good on ya.
partyphone
Banned
the entire premise of this thread is that this is the worst microtransactions have ever been.
TyrantGuardian
Member
As someone who has played this game for about 30 hours now - why would anyone give a single shit about any of the skins/unlocks? They're just a fun little bonus on top of a game that might as well not have had them at all.
Ehh. I mean, I don't like microtransaction as a whole. The literal entire concept is something I'm not a fan of. I don't like post purchase transactions except for game expansions.
So if you also feel the same, be upfront about it. I think that would clear up things. Because THIS type of microtransaction is the literal least offensive. It's something you don't need, that doesn't effect the game, balance or rate of progression, and you can 'experience' said content by catching a youtube of the one liner and go on about your day.
It's the best that you are going to get out of microtransactions. Taking a step up from this type of thing is to REMOVE them as a whole. I'm a big fan of that, but be honest about your desire, don't pretend that there's some less offensive form of microtransaction that they are failing to execute, because there really isn't. This is as benign as it gets in this field.
If other people would bother picking a healer, I would feel less forced to do so.
Look. You can sit there and theorycraft and hypothesize your worst case scenarios all day long to try and hang on to your point. I'm telling you, after a dozen or so 50 box bundles opened, how the system works and what the odds seem to be based on blizzard's other titles, odds across like 15 bundles (750 opened boxes across like 4 accounts), and reasonably known pity mechanics.
You get a random legendary roughly 1:20
Pity timer seems to be 30-40 boxes
Credits across 50 boxes start out at what seems to be 1800 (we'll say 1600-1900 to be safe) and goes up above 2000 with further bundles.
If you want to pay for boxes ithats about what to expect. If you have a smaller collection with a smaller sample size you'll probably see results quite different. That's why you don't generate statistics with small sample sizes.
If you don't want to pay for boxes, all you need to do is thank those of us who are paying for them for ensuring that all future GAMEPLAY content is released with no additional charge.
Warnen
Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
Plants vs Zombies has a very similar set up but doesn't give you tons of dupes, that what makes this system worse by far. No reason other then to gouge the end user is that system in place.
Amen to that lol
But you can do that AND provide continued support and development of an online title. That's the rub the "anti-MTA" crowd keeps ignoring. You either have MTAs or you have paid game updates... and given the setup of this game and Blizz's desire to see it last for years.. paid updates would kill the player base. Cosmetic MTAs by (a historically low) percentage of the population basically eliminates the need for paid DLC or subscriptions or season passes.
But you and I already covered that yesterday. PvZ2 has shown no real intent for development or support longevity compared to what Blizz is attempting to do here and likewise gives no ability to bank dupe currency for new releases (something PvZ2 also doesn't see). So comparing the two in a vacuum without differentiating between how both games look at longevity and future development is a bit off.
I explained why i value speech content. Something doesn't need to directly impact the gameplay to make the game a lesser experience. Would you actually support a game that sells for full price but then asks you spend more to unlock the full voice acting? There are many things that 'don't impact gameplay' that games can start putting as random unlocks or MTAs, in SP or MP.
Exactly. That's why i didn't bother to explain before to the guy that asked what are the negatives in those 'treadmill' unlock systems. It has been covered already in the past. I just didn't imagine Blizzard or anyone treating speech content the same (which later i was informed wasn't unprecedented for full-priced games).
Because it's banking on the player to engage with MTAs and designed as such. You have no control on what you're unlocking. You can't directly buy what you want. If you fancy a specific item all you can do is hope you get it in the free loot boxes or hope to get enough in-game credits to buy it directly. You can't guide your way to make progress on getting this or that item. So you can only hope or engage with the only real-money MTA there is: buying more boxes to increase your chances to finally get what you want. I don't want to assign a value judgement for the player who do so but it is a reality. A reality Blizzard is banking and preying on. And you can't even buy in-game credits with real money, can you?
The very least a game that permits real-money spending can do is have it possible to directly purchase any item. I want only this item. I'm paying only for this item. I receive this item.
Pellegri Testament
Member
God damn man, this is seriously the dumbest fucking complaint ever. People have pointed out to you multiple times now just what the one liners are for each character and how they literally only amount to the noises fucking Bastion makes. There is nothing significant about any of them, not a single one amounts to anything that gives any of the characters more personality. You automatically get the only voiced dialogue that "matters", the rest is just spam that you use in the pre game area.
It hasn't been unprecedented for over half a decade now, complaining about it at this point literally only amounts to yelling at the clouds. There was no way you were getting an option with this game (or even any other MP game) where you get all content for free after paying for the game, it's time to come to terms with how things are now. It was either get minor MTs for boxes and possibly currency in the future, or have them charge for major content patches, splitting the community and being sure that no one gives a fuck about the game in a year, other than those who bought all the latest content. If you can't see what we got in the end as the best possible solution we were going to get, then I honestly don't know what to say.
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TheRedSnifit
Member
Websites like Scrap.tf make it so that, within five minutes of getting a weapon you don't want, you can trade it for one you do want. You are right though that getting actual cosmetics is much more of a time sink in TF2 than OW, though.
I haven't really spent much time looking at OWs system. Is there trading? In TF2, the typical hat costs $0.30 in real money, so $50 would let me get pretty much anything I desire (obviously, there are plenty that cost more, but most are dirt cheap). In OW, it looks like $50 just lets me unbox a bunch of stuff which I may or may not want, and maybe some in-game currency that lets me unlock a single desired skin. It definitely looks like TF2 gives you more bang for your buck.
This may be true while the game is new, but eventually the vast majority of cosmetics will cost less to buy than the price of a crate. Is it still not a gamble when you can spend $100 on crates and usually only get $30 worth of items?
7DollarHagane
Banned
I love that the ot2 for the game is trucking along making fun of this crazy thread.
It feels kind of like console players out of touch complaining.
It feels kind of like console players out of touch complaining.
Warnen
Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
PvZ 1 had a ton of free post release content. Also you can bank currency in PvZ. System is extremely similar just PvZ you get currency when you do things and then you pick what you want to spend it on (consumables, cosmetic or variations). If you got all you want that currency just builds up for next content drop.
Let's be honest with blizards track record, sure it good on PC but they have all but abandon Diablo on the consoles. None of that cool season stuff ever made it over.
Why should we believe same won't happen here?
My favorite one so far is the one I have for Reinhardt where he literally just yells "Catch Phrase!"
Thank you.
The amount of people who think this is not gambling is frightening. Easy to get addicted too, what's even worse is that these cosmetics have zero monetary value.
Pellegri Testament
Member
It was made known when they first starting talking about seasons, that console players would not get them. Consoles still get everything else other than seasons, that is far from "abandoning" them.
Unless you're talking about the 360/PS3 versions where that has far more to do with how the consoles are now irrelevant. It's one thing to continue updating the game on PC where their market largely resides or PS4/Xbone where the systems are still selling, it's another to continue wasting development time on versions of the game that have irrelevant hardware and are no longer selling. No one should have seriously expected them to continue with PS360 support after the consoles had been sent out to pasture.
PS4/X1 versions of Diablo 3 get all seasonal items, balance changes etc day and date with the PC version, they just don't get the actual Seasons option because console versions aren't online only.
You maaaay be referring to the 360/PS3 versions of RoS which stopped getting updates after I think the first patch or so, but it's a goddamn miracle those versions even run as well as they do on that hardware so I don't think it's fair to hold that one against Blizzard too much.
Where did I say blizzard is dropping support? I never even hinted at that. I said future support can mean anything and most likely won't be some crazy amount of content like many people in here are trying to claim.
OF COURSE I'm comparing all of COD to all of overwatch. And like I said before overwatch falls flat on its face in comparison of content. It will most likely still be falling a year from now. That means that the big claim of future support really doesn't mean that much when you take into account the game launched with such a tiny amount of content to begin with.
Wow is an MMO you're paying your monthly fee whether or not you buy the expansions.
There is so much wrong with this post where to begin wow.
I mean your defense of overwatch as a $60 game with its reward system is so laughable to me I can't even debate the top part besides saying that's nuts. One is entirely free to play, allows trades, crafting, and selling your extra stuff to other players while blizzard just has an open hand saying "we know you paid $60 now give us more money". All the while giving you random loot and not even allowing you to choose what you are paying for.
Yes there is a chance of you spending $20 or even $100 and not getting what you want unless you mean by getting duplicates of existing items then using gold. By that metric each skin would cost around $20. Which is a mind numbingly horrible value especially considering paying full price for this game.
I'm honestly tempted to post search you and see if you ever complained about a games lack of content or dlc pricing because I can't think of a single game that more brazenly asks for more money as a paid title than overwatch especially considering its lack of maps and overall content. From my point of view its indefensible.
-just to reiterate its a great game, this mechanic is all I have a problem with. It's as if game designers put their heart and soul into the gameplay then management came along and stuck this gambling/money mechanic in there and chopped up the game.
Yea but they aren't pushing the MTS in anyway. Never once did it tell me of the option to buy crates with real money, never got the stereo typical "You are out of crates to open would you like to buy some?" pop up. On the ps4 there is a little prompt in the bottom corner of the open loot crate screen that just says Playstation Store.
Aside from that if you never noticed it you wouldn't know that the game had MTS unless you stumbled across it from an outside source like I did with this thread. I don't care how you feel about the unlock system as a whole with its RNG and making impatient people want to buy crates but they aren't pushing the MTS.
Yeah except for the fact that there are plenty of posts in that thread complaining about the rewards and structure too. Saw atleast 10 last night alone.
It's right there on the screen every time you open a box. Just because it's not exploding in the center of the screen. It's still there and accessible with one bottom press that can even be accidental.
Princess Carl
Member
Meanwhile i played at least 50 hours of Battlefield 4 and when i stopped playing, I was STILL unable to do the things I wanted with the guns or vehicles I wanted to use. You know, the things in the sandbox you are actually engaging people with.
But yeah, this is as low as it gets.
But yeah, this is as low as it gets.
Yea it is in the corner in tiny font. That is not pushing them on players
Pellegri Testament
Member
It's actually right next to the "open box" box on PC and it's box is about half the size of the other. In the end though, it's still hardly pushing it on people.
Exactly, not like you go into open a crate when you have none and it gives you a massive pop up saying you don't have any but would you like to buy more?
You get the option off to the side in a unobtrusive manner akin to "Hey guys we sell these things to the side buy them or don't whatever we don't care"
It's not tiny. I saw it the very first time I opened a box and activated by a single button prompt that takes you right out of the game and to the psn store. You don't think blizzard knew what they were doing? This defense is so laughable. If they had done any more it would have just stoked the fires even more about how shady the micro transactions are in this game.
No it's not like that at all. It's "hey guys, 20 hours in with just one skin? Getting tired of random loot drops giving you absolutely nothing you want? Well we sell more random loot drops $1 per that let you brute force our shitty mechanic designed to make you pay more for things that should have been included with the $60 you already paid. Cool?" No not cool blizzard.
Yes I'm level 20 yes I have one real skin and that's it with 455 gold so far. One real skin. If you don't think the rewards were chopped up and nerfed to heavily coerce people to pay for loot drops you're kidding yourself.
Straight Edge
Member
Then so are prize machines that my 5 year old plays. If loot crates are creating a problem for someone, that individual needs to seek treatment.