Possibly. I guess we will be able to play it on the PTR after Gamescom.
On a second note to Blizzard: buff Winston so we can end the current Genji meta.
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- Thread starter ExMachina
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Possibly. I guess we will be able to play it on the PTR after Gamescom.
On a second note to Blizzard: buff Winston so we can end the current Genji meta.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Winston is still good though.
I think it's Kor. he was like 180+ or something in Top 500. I'm still impressed he went that high primarily through solo q.
Ye. Once discord is nerfed he'll be even better too.
sure. But still he is basically the only viable option to counter Genji and even then he can have trouble with this job.
Winston was more fun before Discord buff. Get melted so fast now.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
He'll just be back to where he was right?
Even in my rank i still find great success as him in koth.
Discord doesn't affect him as much as i anticipated.
If anything discord nerf might push him out a bit due to increased use of dva and roadhog.
Shake Appeal
Member
Discord is the definitive ability in the game right now, and it's kinda tedious. I say that as someone who likes to Zen.
Nerf Lucio (overall healing output, ult charge speed, amp it up cooldown should all be slightly tweaked down), nerf Zen (Discord 30% damage boost, 100/100 health and shield), nerf Reaper (lengthen his vape cooldown or give him 200 health).
Shorten Genji's Dragonblade range.
Give Winston's shield a tick more durability.
Reduce the cooldown on Widow's grappel, make her scope as fluid as Ana's, leave her damage as it is.
Rework Bastion, Symmetra.
Oh, and delete Mei. It'll be funny.
Nerf Lucio (overall healing output, ult charge speed, amp it up cooldown should all be slightly tweaked down), nerf Zen (Discord 30% damage boost, 100/100 health and shield), nerf Reaper (lengthen his vape cooldown or give him 200 health).
Shorten Genji's Dragonblade range.
Give Winston's shield a tick more durability.
Reduce the cooldown on Widow's grappel, make her scope as fluid as Ana's, leave her damage as it is.
Rework Bastion, Symmetra.
Oh, and delete Mei. It'll be funny.
Depends on what all happens. Winston has been very good before, he's still pretty good now with the caveat that he probably needs Zarya or somebody to stop him from being melted. Like this meta is good for him in the sense Zarya is backing him up and the game speed makes his engages really scary. It's shit for him in the sense Discord melts him.
You nerf discord and he gets melted less, but if the game gets slower then Idk how good his engages will be. In Mercy meta it was a mixed bag but he was still on the better end of the cast. If Lucio gets touched who knows.
Changing Zen's health pool is barely a nerf and not Blizz's style on this one I think. 30% discord along with some other characters changing is probably enough to make him balanced.
Also how you gonna talk about nerfing the shit on Lucio nobody is worried about and not mention speed boost? Amp It Up CD doesn't greatly affect speedboost, it just makes him a shit utility character and a one time speedboost bot.
Also I get why people think Winston is weak, but I promise you if you buff that shield it'll be Planet of the Apes.
Dargonblade duration is more of a problem than range tbh. I get why you'd target that but it doesn't really address the problem, it just makes sword kinda less good while still allowing for the stupid bullshit you see now.
Shake Appeal
Member
I'm talking 750HP instead of 600HP. Even with Discord at 30%, he's very killable right now. And when Zenyatta and others are slightly less prevalent, his targets won't be as soft in general anyway.
The only reason he was ever nerfed pre-release was because of how effective Twinston was. With hero stacking out of the competitive game, he needs a little help.
I don't like when the meta is tank-heavy, but I would like all of the tanks to be useful most of the time, and not just as an occasional hard counter pick.
SgtWiggles
Member
High ranked matches are making me hate Genji with a passion, I really hope he see's some sort of nerf to his Ultimate's length atleast.
Having to swap off of healer to Winston so I can deal with him because nobody else seems to be able to seems to be a constant thing
Having to swap off of healer to Winston so I can deal with him because nobody else seems to be able to seems to be a constant thing
The thing about Winston is that he's not meant to survive like that or really do all that much. He does one thing. Hop in, deal damage and stall for five seconds, hop out. During those 5 seconds in higher level play half your team died because a couple people were caught up dealing with a monkey. His interactions with things like Zarya shield make this extremely dangerous.
Like really, Winston isn't supposed to kill people. He's supposed to just cause a problem for 5 seconds with a bunch of health, a shield, and some AoE. Literally 5 seconds of "uh there's some monkey in my face" is enough to win entire fights. If he can actually sustain a shield for even just 2 seconds more he's probably going to start just sitting in the middle of every fight getting too much damage and locking out too many people.
People seriously underestimate that shield too. If somebody is in it they can't be healed or shielded, and the person in it can't target anybody outside of it. Meanwhile Winston's teammates can just ignore it. It really is a big 600 HP isolation chamber, if you bump it by even 100 HP that's a lot of time to be potentially stuck in that shit. If multiple people are busy shooting the shield, then they aren't in the fight meaning Winsotn's teammates have a big advantage.
It's real easy to say Twinston got him nerfed, but I assure you even solo back then the dude was a monstrosity.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Which is why i laugh when people say they should buff Winston's damage. Like, making him be able to regularly secure picks by himself would be fucking unbearable, trust me.
I don't think you can 100% remove discord from him though otherwise I wouldn't play him. I still think nerfing him significantly for teammates but keeping the base damage increase for himself is best.
Shake Appeal
Member
Yes, I have played Overwatch.
Meanwhile, his shield used to be 1000HP and it had a shorter cooldown. Nobody's suggesting we go back to that, but with hero stacking removed, Winston needs a little more of something (not damage) to make him comparably useful to the other tanks in more situations. It's sad to only see him once every few games as a direct counter to a handful of squishies, at least one of whom is getting a nerf anyway.
optimus8936
Banned
Nerf his healing? Lol what? That's absurd. There's nothing wrong with his healing. The only thing I've heard about is speed boost, didn't realize people thought that was a problem too.
Zen just needs discord nerf, not health.
Reaper ain't OP lol
It already has a fairly short range, just nerf how long it lasts.
Winston is fine, he just under performs with Zen. He can still dominate matches.
I don't think they need reworks, just buffs.
Yes.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
He's like the third most picked tank by a comfortable margin. What else do you want?
Only used as a direct counter to squishies? The monkey is in nearly every single koth game (if not every single one) because he's just that good at koth fights. He's also still popular on certain payload segments. All in tournaments. Again, I'm telling you that people better than both of us are using him frequently and aren't saying he needs buffs any time soon. Some pros even say it's scary to talk about buffing him in general.
Not all of the tanks are the same and they don't all do the same roles. You wouldn't use a D.va as a Rein tank. Just like you wouldn't use Zen as your main healer. Winston is the same thing.
TheLetdown
Member
What if they changed Winston's shield to not expire? So, it either has to be destroyed, or it gets replaced if he re-deploys it.
The thing goes down with minimal concentrated fire, so this wouldn't make it OP. But it would give a little bit more utility to it.
The thing goes down with minimal concentrated fire, so this wouldn't make it OP. But it would give a little bit more utility to it.
optimus8936
Banned
Winston is about jumping in and starting team fights by putting his bubble down and disrupting the enemy. The bubble has enough health to allow your team to take the initiative and pick off a guy or two and potentially win the fight. Winston is fantastic for leading teams to victory. Killing squishies is an added bonus.
Shake Appeal
Member
That's all-time, in all modes, at all skill levels.
In the current meta in comp, he is 1. a KotH pick, 2. a counter pick. If you bring him anywhere else, you are forgoing one of the better options for tanking. Of course people can do well with him, but my feeling is that people who are really good with Winston can probably do at least as well with the other tanks. Most of the time he is forced back or downed in seconds if Zen is not dead.
But probably nerfing Discord alone would fix that.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
So you want every tank comp to be Winston + zarya? Because making him viable in all modes, ask skill levels and ask situations means that only those 2 will be used.
Like honestly i think the tanks are the group that needs the least attention currently. Once discord is nerfed every tank will be viable in different roles and maps, which i think is the exact sort of balance blizzard should aim for. Zarya is the closest to be the most all rounder tank.
Like honestly i think the tanks are the group that needs the least attention currently. Once discord is nerfed every tank will be viable in different roles and maps, which i think is the exact sort of balance blizzard should aim for. Zarya is the closest to be the most all rounder tank.
optimus8936
Banned
Agreed. The tanks are the most balanced right now. They're all useful in their own right. They should leave their focus on the defense character after this next update.
Hydrophobic
Member
Wait, what's this interaction with Zarya shields?
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Cleanses him off discord and gives him more time to stay in the enemies' faces longer.
You ever had a Winston jump on you then immediately get Zarya shielded? A Winston that jumps on you with an extra 200 health that can't be discorded and if you shoot it beefs up the DPS of the enemy team?
I have. Then I got hit by a discord while a speed boosted Genji flew into my face.
No, I'm never getting over that.
optimus8936
Banned
I'm glad I've never had that happen cause that sounds scary to go up against lol.
Hydrophobic
Member
Oh yeah. Sorry I thought there was some interaction with Winston's gun against an enemy w/ Zarya's shield that I was unaware of.
TheLetdown
Member
Pretty much.
This is the only reason why I've said that Winston doesn't feel viable beyond a character you switch to so you can break up a cluster and then switch out of. If they don't have a Zen (a big if, these days) then he still plays really well.
Discord seems to affect him disproportionately compared to other tanks. Roadhog gets it pretty badly, too, but he already plays in a way where you get accustomed to popping behind a wall to heal frequently.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
As we've said though, he really isn't as affected by discord as people think he is. Roadhog got it waaaaaaaaay worse.
Shake Appeal
Member
If your team plays together at all, his healing crushes that of all other supports, all while he's happily doing other things (ping damage, booping, speeding people out of trouble). The speedboost is overpowered, sure: It's essential for starting teamfights and enabling ult stacks... but I don't know how you remove that ability and make him still interesting to play.
It's the all-around, low-risk healing and survive that Lucio offers — on top of his decisive speedboost/ult combo — that makes Mercy and Ana sub-optimal picks. (Plus Zen having vastly superior offensive power and a silly cancel ult to boot.)
Reaper, like Lucio, has been slightly and quietly overpowered since the game launched, and has been a top-eight feature of pro meta the entire time (and for a while, when things were tank-heavy, he was a top-four pick). It's subtle, and it's often not noticeable because he gets forced out in some games (usually when the other team has two good ranged DPS who stretch the field of engagement), but his level of self-sufficiency is bananas, and you barely have to aim or do anything to rack up multikills with him.
His average winrate and E/D have consistently been higher than the other offense heroes, his elims, solo kills and final blows have consistently been higher than any other hero, and his ability to isolate and pick off backline targets isn't that far behind Genji's. I often wonder how far he'd outpace all the other offense heroes by if @ReaperNames bros didn't stubbornly autopick him versus the few comps he struggles with.
You could argue that he's one of the few truly "balanced" heroes that has always been effective, but in a world where people are calling for Genji nerfs, people are missing that Reaper quietly does the exact same shit, only more consistently. He just doesn't settle teamfights with quite the same obvious flair, and he doesn't have as high a ceiling.
optimus8936
Banned
Yeah, Winston is the only tank that really gets hurt by discord. Rein has his shield, Zarya can cleanse herself, Roadhog is used to getting out of LOS anyways, and Dva can DM his shots long enough for him to just give up or for you to escape. Winston does have his jump, but he doesn't have something as long lasting DM to wait out the cooldown, so Zen tears him apart.
Well, he is there are just ways to get/play around it. Those ways are hard and infrequent in less coordinated teams which does make it feel like shit.
Also Reaper isn't OP, he's just consistent at his job. Like he is really good in situations he's supposed to be good in, and in others there's an alternative or better choice to go with. I think he's pretty well balanced in that regard.
optimus8936
Banned
Barely have to aim with Reaper? Yeah sure, if you want to believe that, fine, but it's not true. Also of course he has the most solo kills, that's what's he meant for lol.
Hydrophobic
Member
Yeah 'barely have to aim' may be a bit of hyperbole based on the variance in my Reaper performances from day to day.
optimus8936
Banned
Yeah, any decent team can keep Reaper from being a total God, but he can still do work...like every character in the game!!
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Even in less co-ordinated teams though I feel like it's not really that bad. I've stopped playing roadhog not because I feel like I got shat on playing as him but mostly because I've seen how much I've shat on roadhogs as zen.
Meanwhile I still do work as winston, because the thing about unco-ordinated teams is that it goes both ways.
Shake Appeal
Member
Every character in the game can not "do work."
Right now, there are six or seven heroes (Zen, Lucio, McCree, Genji, Reaper, Rein, Zarya) worth playing, with some flex off-tank picks and niche others (Tracer!) thrown in when the mode suits. Every one of the last several dozen comp games I've played in has featured Lucio/Zen autopicks. And defense heroes are close to redundant in the current meta.
Interfectum
Member
Yup, Reaper in quick play is easy mode because most people have zero map awareness. Free kills from behind.
toadsworth
Banned
Played 4 competitive matches last night. Lost every single one... At least its the end of the season but that was frustrating as hell. One of the matches, on Nepal, we crushed them at the first point, then one on their team switched to torb and they set up D.Va's field in front of it. I was playing tracer and took out the turret a couple times but we still got totally wrecked. Those kind of loses are the fucking worst.
It's not quite that bad. Genji is extremely popular and only getting more popular and Tracer isn't that niche along with Winston. D.Va flex along with stuff like Junkrat niche also exist with Mei even sneaking in sometimes. Hell Roadhog is still picked for pick potential.
Past that though most of the characters are pforced out of meta even if they have redeeming qualities, yeah :T
The real problem is why even run the alt strat if it's "viable" when deathballing is just flat out more consistent and generally better?
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
People still pick reinhardt for KotH huh.
BS, there is more at work here. You can only do so much. It is INSANELY frustrating when I can kill 3 characters by myself but my team dies instantly from 2 of their characters. You can not carry that, you also get screwed by leavers and people who exploited the forced server crash. You can't kill every single character on the enemy team without an ult and also focus on the objective souly. If your team is not good enough to take advantage of your plays, you aren't winning.
I think a problem with people who say this is that they don't realize how terrible these players actually are. Even on the other side they are sometimes scattered so you have to hunt down characters to kill them. Had a player on my team go soilder even though I told the team I was going soilder to deal with the turrets quick and easy, locked me out of it, ignored me and did not even attack the turrets. It was like the player wasn't even listening to anything, just playing. I'm convinced one of these players was baked out of their damn minds when playing.
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